Blowing 3 Gees on my Six

[Luke76]

Hi fellas,

I’ve been lurking here on FordSix for about a year and I’ve read so much I’ve got blue ovals pouring out my ears. I’m starting to feel just cocky enough now to begin making a mess of things, so here goes.

I’m trying to nail down the roadmap for upgrading the 250 in my ‘76 Granada, and just wanted someone to look at my general plan and point out any glaring mistakes – or offer suggestions of how to best spend my money. I recently got out of another hobby and as consolation I'm using the money I made from selling my gear to get this car pepped up.

DUI ignition is the first task, and it’s on order presently. I have maybe $3 grand left after that but also some limitations: I live in an apartment with no garage. I recently moved to a new state so the garages of my friends and family are a thousand miles away.

For that reason, and also due to my budget, rebuilding the block or installing an aftermarket cam is probably not an option. Heck, for all I know, maybe changing the head is more than a one-man job or can’t easily be done with the engine still in the car (I might be able to get my 100 pound wife to help me sometimes?). I’ve never swapped a head so I don’t know. This is kind of what I’m hoping maybe some of you can help me with. Please tell me if what I’m planning is unrealistic for an inexperienced, one-man operation.

So here’s my plan:
- DUI ignition: on its way
- Get a ‘78 head on the side and send it to CI
- Have them do a:

- 2V conversion
- Valve job and porting
- Mill the head to compensate for thicker gasket
- Should I spring for oversize valves?

- Autolite 2100 carb
- Headers
- High ratio rockers

I’m pretty sure that list will blow through my money in short order, even not counting the DUI. Here are some specific areas I’m still unsure about:

High Ratio Rockers: There’s a $250 difference between the stock-rebuilt high ratio rockers, and the full roller rockers. Either way I’m getting the high ratio, but are the rollers worth an extra $250? Could that money be better spent on something else that would give me more power, for example, more head porting?

Headers: It seems there are some fitment issues to overcome with the CI headers on a 250 with a low mount starter. I also have an AC compressor on the passenger side, down low. My alternator is on the driver's side so that isn't a problem. I’m not sure if the “modifications” are something I could do myself with my limited tools. Is my mechanic going to be swearing at me trying to mod these things around the AC and starter? Should I consider a different brand of headers or are they all going to require these same adjustments?

Exhaust: I don’t know too much about exhaust. I do know this is a Granada, so the sound needs to be stately and understated. In other words, I can’t have it too loud. In my mind it seems like if I used a dual exhaust, I could increase exhaust flow but still keep the sound down since I would have two mufflers – is this an oversimplification? Any suggestions on mufflers?

Rear-End: I have the C4 transmission and a 2.8 rear-end. Should I be thinking about changing to a different ratio in the back as a performance upgrade? I see lots of guys prefer the 3.5 or something ratio, but I don’t know how much of a difference this would make in my situation, or if a change would be appropriate for the relatively mild nature of my engine upgrade?

Any and all advice or comments are more than welcome!


Luke

[Luke76]

And here’s a couple photos of my baby. Only has 35,000 original miles on the car and engine. The engine is stock and has never been cracked open to my knowledge. I did remove the smog stuff and EGR though.

You can probably imagine how difficult it is to get any respect with a Granada, but the way I figure, it would only make people that more unsuspecting and easy to surprise if I had some kick under the hood. Especially from a six.

Of course right now I have anything but “kick” – watching this thing accelerate is like watching a sea slug take a nap…

Luke




Here are some larger shots taken a few weeks ago:
http://www.kansasflyer.org/Images/Granada/General/Granada1.jpg
http://www.kansasflyer.org/Images/Granada/General/Granada2.jpg

[JackFish]

You already have a DS2, why go with a DUI? That's a big chuck of change for very little return.
And you would $3k and not spend $150 on a camshaft?

[Luke76]

I'm not certain actually that I have the DSII - I believe 76 Granadas had what Ford simply called "breakerless ignition" but the DSII didn't show up until 1977. Of course, regardless of the name, it might pretty much be the same thing.

Perhaps that was a poor choice of dollars, as the DUI is rather expensive. Maybe I was a sucker for advertising.

As for the cam, it's not an issue of money (though if I'm going to do the cam I might as well deck the block and put in V8 pistons while I'm at it, as you know that's going to add up to a lot more than $150). Presumably to replace the cam one has to take out the engine block. I suppose you will then need to put that engine block somewhere while you work on it. I'm pretty sure management at my apartment wouldn't look kindly on me rolling a cherry picker around the parking lot. Nor would I then be able to roll said cherry picker through my narrow apartment door. I'm pretty sure I'm not strong enough to just carry the block in by hand, or would want to chance my toes to it, even if i had a helper. But maybe it's an option.

I'm kind of going off the assumption that not having a garage is limiting what I can do, but if you have suggestions that would make me rethink that I'm all ears!


Luke

[Positively Ralf]

You can always return the DUI system I'm sure and get your money back.

As for the cam, that is something that I want to do as well and have been told that the block does not need to be out of the car. All you would have to do is remove the grille and radiator+fan unit.

I'm in the same boat as you. I live in an apartment and the car hobby really does suck for guys like you and me because we have no garage to go and do work at. I really wish I had one because it would save so much money for me. But I can see you will save a lot of money if you will be doing a lot of this stuff yourself. I think some people forget how much you save when building a six if you mainly do the work yourself.

I like your list of things to do but I have heard that the rockers aren't really necessary unless you are going all out.

[JackFish]

I don't know if you've mentioned the mileage, but a proper compression test will reveal much.
You could consider pulling off the grill and rad, and indeed you can swap the cam without removing the block.
If not buying an aluminum head (subject to availability as I understand it)I would suggest you start with acquiring a junkyard head, get it built to spec, and just swap the heads out in the car.
I have been through pulling an engine in the parking lot.
If you don't have to do it I wouldn't bother.

[Luke76]

Jack you are reading my mind (if not the thread). I am indeed having a separate head sent to CI. Both because it will be easier that way, as you say, but also because the head I have on my car is a D5 casting whereas the D7s and later are better suited to upgrading as you know. The aluminum head is out of my price range.

The engine only has 35,000 miles on it (yes that's right). I don't have a compression kit but now you mention it I will get one. Did you have something specific in mind as to what I should looking for on this test?

Ralf, nice to meet another apartment dweller. Yep, cars are not the hobby for those who don't live in a house. I have three cars and we only get assigned one covered (not even enclosed) parking spot. That's where the Granada goes, the other two which are daily drivers for my wife and I, sit out in the Oregon rain. This fact is probably the main thing which has kept me from buying even more old cars... Perhaps that is for the best.

I did not know you could swap the cam without taking out the block. Ralf, the only reason I was considering the high ratio rockers is because the Falcon Six handbook says this is one way of increasing valve lift without swapping the cam, basically it has some of the same effect as an aftermarket cam, while only requiring work on the head. They actually say in the book if you are going to replace the cam you probably don't need high ratio rockers.

In fact, the rocker upgrade would cost more than the cam upgrade, so this is something I should consider. I'm kind of wary of getting halfway through such a task only to find my cam won't come out all the way, or whatever. I guess if you do it this way you don't replace the cam bearings? Can you still replace the lifters without removing the block? How about degreeing the camshaft, that needs to be possible within the engine bay as well.

Maybe there is a thread on this somewhere, I'll try to do some more reading.


Luke

[rocklord]

Luke,
You can change the cam out without removing the engine. If you're older and not as limber, like me, it could be a PITA to dial it in; with all that leaning and bending over the fender :-) Whether you do change out the cam or not, go with the adjustable rocker arms. They're not as expensive as the high ratio rockers, and they are easier to adjust the valves with.

Talk to Mike at CI and see what cam he would suggest with your planned rebuild. The 250 is already a torque maker, but improvements can be made with the right cam.

With the 250, you might want to eventually consider an AOD transmission with a lower geared (higher numerically) rear axle. With a 3000+lb vehicle, this would give you improved performance and mileage.

[JackFish]

Yup it's possible to screw up a cam swap in the driveway.
In my case I damaged the bearings and after having to pull the engine it needed the rebuild anyways.
But yours has no need for anything and I wouldn't even bother taking the head off at only 35K.
If you're hot for a modded head I would suggest that you find a local machine shop rather than pay to ship a head to AZ and back.
I did, and I gave the shop a copy of the Falcon Handbook with all the good stuff highlighted in orange.
It came back well thumbed, and the head work was beautiful.

[250six_71]

Try the rear gear swap first. If you have a 8" or 9" differential, it can be done in a parking lot. Remove the pumpkin, take it to a shop, have the gears changed, and install.

[sp_alloy_head]

Save your $, keep the current Duraspark or change to a Duraspark2 then use that money to service your c4 tranny and maybe install a shift improver kit. Cut the new modded log head to gain a tad more compression also.

db

[Luke76]

The hard part about this whole process is making decisions, but sooner or later you have to take a fork in the road. I went and read every thread on FordSix that I could find on swapping the cam with the engine still in the car (yes, including yours JackFish). No one had anything particularly pleasant to say about the experience, and some said they wouldn't do it again. It's one of those things where you'd only find out how big (or small) of a nightmare it might be when you are halfway through the project, at which point you're committed to whatever the consequences are.

I bought a compression tester and when this rain lets up I'll do a check on the engine. Like Jack says, it only has 35k and the bottom end should probably still be pretty good. If that's the case, I might as well just leave it as is and put another 20-30 thousand miles on it. Hopefully by then I'll be living in a house with a garage, and I could take the block out, swap the cam the easy(er) way, and consider a complete rebuild while I'm at it, or new pistons, and by so doing take full advantage of having the block out. All the upgrades I do now will position me then to be able to take full advantage of a better cam.

So for now I've decided to just go with the high-ratio rockers instead. They will give me some of the same benefit of an aftemarket cam by increasing valve lift, without the effort.

sp_alloy_head: Yes, I will mill the head a little bit to gain compression at the same time it's getting the 2V conversion. I might not do too much so that in the future I still have the option of decking the block as well. Thanks for the tip about shift kits. I'd never heard of them until today, so that was a whole 'nother slew of reading to do. Many people seem to be happy with the Transgo 40-2, and they're only $50 on eBay. Looks like this an easy and inexpensive upgrade to add to my list.

250six_71: I have the 8" rear. I did some reading on gear swaps and you're right, it does seem pretty straightforward. I checked prices and ring & pinion sets for this would cost me around $200-300, plus labor to do the swap. It's hard to know how to prioritize these things. I think for the moment I might put this on my list as a "do it if I have money left over" from the engine upgrades - unless someone can show me how it should be ranked higher.

I'll let you know the results of my compression test...


Luke

[early ford fan]

thats a heavy car.id swap in a 351 windsor....

[JackFish]

Hold off on the rockers until Mike gets his package together.
They'll be offering ratios up to 1.75, and I think that's a pretty good idea for your situation.

[mugsy]

I lived in apartments for years with my first project car; a '68 Catalina convertible. I did a bunch of work on it in the parking lot but followed these three guidelines. 1) Don't leave it on jack stands or milk crates over night. 2) Make sure the hood can close each night. 3) make sure there aren't any huge puddles underneath it (like ATF, motor oil, rear end lube). I never had any issues with the Resident Manager or other tenants complaining.

Don't know how big you are but you should be able to handle the six head if you want to swap it out. It would help if you had a buddy but I've taken the head off/reinstalled on my engine twice without a prob (OK, I'm 6'-4" too).

Rear gear ratio is a tricky thing, get too much gear and the car flies off the line but its terrible at highway speed and sucks gas like its going out of style. Too low of a gear and its a dog off the line. Personally I'd look into the 3.0 or low 3.X ratios. 3.5:1 is a little high in my opinion, but maybe others with more experience here will chime in. Plus these engines don't like to rev and the higher the gear the more revs you need. I have a 3.23:1 in my 4400 lbs. Catalina and love it. Now it is mated to a 428 engine too ....


Motors are nothing more than a big air pump. If you have any desire I'd swap out the cam. I think the higher ratio rockers will only take the engine so far. You should be able to swap out the cam with the engine in place. Typically you have to remove the radiator and grille for clearance.

[Luke76]

We had a bit of sun today, rain is supposed to return tomorrow so I made hay while the sun shined. Always lots of little things to do on the car... but here are the results of my compression test - these are the average of two readings for each cylinder:
Cylinder 1: 160
Cylinder 2: 165
Cylinder 3: 160
Cylinder 4: 162.5
Cylinder 5: 160
Cylinder 6: 160

They all looked so close to me I didn't repeat the test with the teaspoon of oil trick. I also got out the vacuum gauge and she's pulling 20-21 inches at idle. Spark plugs looked good. How does all this sound to you? Seems like it's in good shape to me.

JackFish: I'll have to ask Mike about the new rockers, that could be an interesting option. Is there a thread on these somewhere?

mugsy: Well, I'm not 6'4" and I can't say the ladies swarm over my biceps. But I can probably rustle up a friend or acquaintance for help swapping the head. I've been thinking along the same lines as you for the rear gearing - a 3.0 or 3.2. I think I will wait till the engine mods are complete and then run some numbers through one of those online calculators to decide. I may also go to larger rear tires? I don't really know. I think it would be best to know the most I can about the performance of the engine, and then choose the gearing to suit. I do take this car on long highway trips so as fast as I'd like it to be off the line, it still has to be tolerable cruising at 75.

Ok, as for progress. I've started to answer some of my own questions from the first post:

Headers: I've gone ahead and ordered the Classic Inline headers. For one they are about the most affordable option (I didn't get the ceramic coating) and they look about the best, and come from a reputable source. Hopefully the muffler shop can make them work. I'm not worried about the starter clearance but I am about the A/C compressor.

Exhaust: I've decided on a single exhaust rather than dual, for reasons of cost and simplicity of routing the pipes under the car. Diameter will be 2.25". This is also what the FordSix handbook says would be good for a street car. Too much exhaust apparently can be as bad as too little. If I really want the look of a dual I can get a 1-in, 2-out muffler. But as for this muffler business, I still haven't decided. I'll gladly take any suggestions. I've been on YouTube and watched plenty of videos. Given this is a Granada I think silence is my top consideration - as much as I'd love some deep-throated sound it would make it less of a sleeper, and less enjoyable on long trips. The quietest mufflers in the videos I've seen are the ones on these Asian imports, but boy, as quiet as they are, I don't think I can have my Granada sounding like a rice-rocket.

Here's a real interesting video of a '69 Charger, the guy has Flowmaster 50 SUV mufflers AND Magnaflow resonators. Probably still too loud for this application. The Flowmasters also have the distinct tinny quality which I'm not huge on.

Progress: I've been going back and forth with a junk-yard in Arizona about a 250 head, they're having problems getting the casting number, though this should be pretty easy. The lady is going to have a real genuine mechanic look at the heads on Tuesday and let me know. I found this place on Car-Part.com, there are no junk-yards near where I live, at least none with the engines I want. Car-Part shows they have the head I want, if they can confirm it I'll have it sent to Mike and the journey will begin! Otherwise I'll try a different yard. Car-Part shows half a dozen or so with 250 heads from 1978.


Luke

[mugsy]

I'm just saying I have a long wing span and can lean over the fender pretty easily. Now I do come from a long line of bad backs... but most guys should be able to wrestle the head onto the block while in the car.

Taller tires will "slow down" the gear. If you wanted you could go a little steeper on the rear gear and then try to dial it back with a larger diameter rear tires.

I also remember that "back in the day" 3.08:1 gears were called "highway" gears. That's why I think you should stay in that neighborhood. A few years back I swapped out the stock 2.53(?):1 gears for a 2.78(?) on my Mustang and the performance increase was noticeable. I have an 8" I snagged from a local U-Pick-It JY and it will get either a 3.00 or 3.2 gear change. Our little sixes are pretty torky in my opinion and you don't need that much multiplication to make a nice difference.

[kevinl1058]

Sending anything out you better be ready for a very long wait.. to get it back. Just get a falcon performance book and map out the type of performance gains that you want and find a local performance shop to do your build..

[JackFish]

3.08 gears in the Fairmont wagons with 200s.
I will have to say that with the cam advance 4° and a dizzy recurve it hooked up pretty well and was quite spiffy running between lights, on an otherwise stock motor.
Ithink it would outperform my new setup, with the hot cam worked over head and the cam dialed in straight up. But only up to about 50mph, where the new cam has added lots of top end power. I like.
It would be nice if there were adjustable gearset for the 250.

[Luke76]

For my 8 inch rear I think the only options in this range are 3.00 or 3.25, no 3.08 (of course there are plenty higher, but I agree, they would probably be too much). So the question will be between 3.00 and 3.25. From a cursory look at the online calculators there isn't a massive difference between the two.

I think what I will do is complete the engine upgrades, then take her out on the highway and tach the engine at high speeds, and see what kind of RPMs I could live with. Then try to see which of those two gearings will come close to match that at typical highway cruising speeds. Obviously the 3.25 will be better for off-the-line acceleration, and hopefully it will also be ok for highway driving as well. We'll have to see. But even the 3.0 will be much better than the 2.78 in there now. Like I say, watching this thing try to accelerate is so painful it hurts. Though I did get a small bit of performance boost by following the tuning procedures in the CI tech articles, and removing the smog pump, and EGR crap...


Luke

[Luke76]

Well it's been a while on this project, but progress is slowly being made. I purchased a used cylinder head that was found locally and decided to save the shipping to Arizona. Instead on the recommendation of another sixer here on the forums, I sent it to Portland Engine Rebuilders and they are doing all the porting work, valve jobs, 2V conversion, etc... I am told it is nearly completed.

My idea had been to buy the RAS rockers but as you probably know Mike is replacing those with Classic Inlines rockers, and he's told me I'll be getting a set soon, or whenever they come in. They will be 1.65 ratio. Once I have those and the cylinder head I can begin the transformation!

Ok, I do have one question though, and that concerns the new carb. I'll be going with an Autolite 2100 from Pony Carbs. I'm just wondering about the CFM needs for this application, and I don't want to make a mistake here.

In the "Selecting the Right Carburetor" section of the Classic Inlines tech pages, it lists anywhere from 295-420 CFM on a 250 ci for a modified log head, depending on type. He says large valves would be 345 on up. My log head will be highly modified and have large valves. Final compression ratio hasn't yet been measured but indications are it will be close to 9:1.

Likewise, on the CFM Calculation page, it indicates a 250 ci should get 347 CFM even at only 80% volumetric efficiency. Probably my modified head will have at least 80% VE, and likely more. So, from these two sources I'd say I should get an Autolite 1.21 which has a flow of 351 CFM.

However, the only thing making me think twice about this is this comment from the Classic Inlines shop, on the Autolite page:

While 287cfm may work on a modified log head, it is well suited for use with our new aluminum cylinder head, along with our 2V intake manifold, a performance cam, headers, and a 9-9.5 compression ratio. However we recommend the 240cfm or 245cfm carbs for most street applications where bottom end power and good throttle response are desired.

Well good heavens, that's quite a difference! Surely this description must have been directed at the 200ci engine and not the 250?

I don't want to go overboard on the carb but then again I also don't want to limit performance on the induction side after having done all this other work on the engine. What do folks say, is 350 CFM going to be too radical for this application, or just right?



Luke

[bubba22349]

I would say that the 351 CFM should work good. Have you checked in the old postings for others that have a combo close to yours?

[MustangSix]

Granada's are cool!

I'm not sure what the all up weight of a Granada is, but I suspect it's less than you think. A 250 with an AOD and 3.55 or 3.73 gears would actually be pretty quick.

If I were doing this I'd try to shoot for about 9:1 on the compression to use regular gas, an Autolite 2bbl carb, and a pretty mild cam, maybe something around 260-264 degrees advertised duration. Make sure you use the early pre-69 timing gears. You should be able to get over 20mpg in normal driving with no sweat at all.

You can do the "Shelby Drop" on the upper control arms ala the 67-70 Mustangs. Mustang sway bars will fit to tighten up the handling. Hey, You already have Granada brakes! A 1 1/8" Lincoln LSC master cylinder will firm up the feel on those.

Have fun! This should be a great project.

[MPGmustang]

I think the 351 would be good also, i'm curious are you still going with the DUI or are you sticking with your current setup? if it's current, try finding a 40k coil, the extra spark will help alot and it's a cheap upgrade for your ignition, along with advancing it to 12-14*.

just my 2cents...

Richard

[Luke76]

Ok guys, no one dropped dead at the mention of the 351 carb, so that's what I'll go with. Bubba, I did do some searching of the old posts but I didn't find anything specific about the CFM as it applied to this sort of setup, but not to say I didn't just overlook it. The forums here are massive.

Richard, I'm sticking with the DUI, in fact it's already installed. I acquired it before I started on this larger upgrade project, paid for from money I made on a small side-job, and although it might be a bit overkill, I figure I might as well keep it.

MustangSix, thanks for the suggestion about the Lincoln master cylinder, I'm going to have to do some more research on that. I've not been very satisfied with the feel of the brakes on this thing. You're right, they're just mushy - yes, even after all the brake lines were replaced and the system bled. Any certain year of Lincoln I should be looking for? I'll see if there's any more info on the net about this...


Luke

[bubba22349]

Ok guys, no one dropped dead at the mention of the 351 carb, so that's what I'll go with. Bubba, I did do some searching of the old posts but I didn't find anything specific about the CFM as it applied to this sort of setup, but not to say I didn't just overlook it. The forums here are massive.

Your right there is a lot of info here and it can take some time to find things been researching for my drag car build too. So far have only made it though about 1/3 of the posts but have found several good ones. Good Luck sounds like its going to be a great combo

[MustangSix]

MustangSix, thanks for the suggestion about the Lincoln master cylinder, I'm going to have to do some more research on that. I've not been very satisfied with the feel of the brakes on this thing. You're right, they're just mushy - yes, even after all the brake lines were replaced and the system bled. Any certain year of Lincoln I should be looking for? I'll see if there's any more info on the net about this...


Luke

The 87 Lincoln Mk VII LSC master cylinder has a bigger 1 1/8" bore. The extra volume takes care of the "mush", although the pedal will be a bit firmer and take a bit more effort. It will feel more like a modern vehicle.

The problem is that I think the fittings are on the wrong side of the MC and one of them might be a different size. I don't know the application, but I'm sure there must be a 1 1/8" Ford MC that bolts on, probably from a truck application.

[Luke76]

Well, after I don't know how many months, I've finally got my replacement cylinder head back from the shop. The work was done by Portland Engine Rebuilders in Portland, Oregon. I'm no expert but I think it's clear they do quality work, nevertheless, my experience with them is probably not something I would like to repeat. They simply would not communicate with me about the process, didn't answer or return calls, had no desire to consult on various aspects, and proceeded ahead with their own assumptions instead of asking me when issues arose. Like many things in life, it pays to know precisely what you want before-hand and to spell it out to the Nth degree to whoever is doing your work, rather than hoping they will have a dialogue with you.

One thing I requested which does not appear to have been done is gasket-matching the exhaust ports. In fact I can't tell that they did any porting whatsoever on the exhaust side. I've posted a few pictures below, also, there are larger versions in my photo-log here: Luke's Granada Restoration photo log.

Looking at the metal around the exhaust ports I don't know how much could really have been shaved away while still leaving the walls adequately strong. However gasket-matching the exhaust is something discussed in the Falcon Six handbook and there are even pictures in there, so I know it can be done. What do folks say, should I take this to another machine shop and have them do some more porting on the exhaust?

I've also posted a couple photos of the 2V conversion, which seems to have gone well, although they did have to use a different bolt pattern than provided to get it firmly attached to the log. Also put a picture of my Classic Inline headers. All I'm waiting on now are the CI rockers, and my Pony carb. God only knows when those things will arrive.


Luke



Here one can see the exhaust ports have not been gasket-matched.


A view of the 2V plate. The original mounting holes were spaced too wide for my head, so they were filled in and narrower ones were drilled. The shop also told me they went ahead and epoxied the new bolts in, so the plate is pretty much permanent.


Here's my headers with the 2.25" Y-kit.

[drag-200stang]

Luke,

From what I can see, it looks like they know what they're doing and they did a nice job on the 2 barrel adapter. Of course, anything can be improved on. That's just more time, right? Don't get hung up on this gasket matching stuff. That might apply on the intake side but on the exhaust it may even hurt you. Depending on how much you cam it, the smaller port compared to the header tube will make a ledge that will help with exhaust gas reversion during overlap. The gasket is not really what you're trying to line up, its the header tubes and generally they're plenty big. The gasket looks like it overhangs the center 2 exhaust ports. Wouldn't hurt to trim that back some. Also, on the 2 center ports - the port divider looks to be shrouding the port some. I usually shape it so that its the same square shape like the other ports. If you want to do something, get a 6" long 1/4", maybe 5/16", flame shaped solid carbide, double cut, cutter and open up the exhaust ports just a little bit. The walls are thin, don't cause trouble. Keep the same basic shape. Forget that round matching stuff. If you notice on the ports, there is a bump. That's to direct the flow in the direction of the stock cast iron manifold. If your headers don't go the same way, you can soften that bump some. When in doubt, do less, but anything should help.

[Luke76]

Drag, thanks for the reply. I've posted a photo of the port divider. Ports 3 & 4 certainly have a smaller opening than even the stock holes on the other ports. It appears the divider may not have had much hand-filing done to it before fitting. If you look at the photo on the Classic Inlines page, their divider is installed much more snug than this one (see here).

I've decided to look around for a shop locally that can maybe just enlarge 3 & 4 a bit, but I'll probably leave the others alone. I considered taking your suggestions and trying this myself, but I don't have access to any compressed air and I can't really imagine doing all that grinding with an electric drill.

Another thing which I tried to show in the photo is what the divider looks like inside the port. There is certainly not a smooth transition from the walls of the exhaust port to the "ramp" of the divider. I wonder what might happen if I filled the gap in with some JB Weld? I know people have complained about their dividers coming loose when they attached them with JB Weld, but in this case, the metal filler wouldn't be serving any structural purpose, just filling in the gaps to smooth out the flow. But I'd also hate to have clumps of JB Weld come loose too...

At any rate, in its present state it's clear 3 & 4 have a more restrictive exhaust path than the other cylinders. The headers are going to help no matter what, but I figure if I've come this far and spent this much, it probably pays to have everything done right, especially since the head is still off the engine.



Closeup of port divider.



A view into #3 exhaust port, showing the poor fit of the divider and the exhaust tunnel.

[JackFish]

That port divider is not an item that requires fine tolerances.
How much time do you want to pay for them to spend on it?

[Luke76]

I'm not interested in the tolerances, I'm interested in having adequate and equal exhaust flow through all six ports, without obstruction.

And I don't want to pay anyone anything, I'd have preferred the original machine shop had done a better job the first time around...

However, if it seems like I'm being too nitpicky here, you guys can let me know. I'm pretty much a rank novice when it comes to internal combustion engines, maybe these are fine details that will make no big difference. What I do know is I've already spent $1,200 on this head and it would be a shame for it not to be significantly improved after all that. I'm willing to spend more if that's what it takes to get it done right. $1,400 well done is better than $1,200 medium-rare.

Luke

[JackFish]

The laws of diminishing returns become invoked at some point.
They could probably spend another hour on it, but it's doubtful that that would translate to any noticeable performance gain.
Here's some shots of mine:

[Luke76]

Thanks Jack, I really appreciate the photos. It's good to compare one's engine with others to get a point of reference of where I'm at. Your exhaust ports 3 & 4 look larger than mine, but I can tell they are still slightly smaller than the remaining exhaust tunnels. This may simply be an unavoidable consequence of the port divider. In fact I wasn't even sure I wanted to include it, given the ambiguous results of other Ford Sixers. I told the shop to save it for last, let me know how big my bill had run up to, and I'd decide if I wanted it then or not, but they went ahead and added it without consultation. I'm not upset it's installed, but it's just an example of the poor communication. They also determined on their own how much to mill the head without consultation first. They arrived at an amount pretty close to what I would have decided, but not exactly, and again it was frustrating that we missed a better result simply because they didn't want to spend five minutes on the phone. This wasn't something I could have instructed them on from the beginning, because we had to wait to CC the chambers until after the porting was done. In the end it looks like I'll get somewhere around 8.7:1, though I was shooting for 9:1. I guess I can always deck the block at some future date to make up the difference.

Anyway... I'm definitely not taking this thing all the way up to Portland again. I'm not sure there's really any place local that wants to do porting, the places I called today didn't want to bother with it. I have a few more leads which I'll chase down early next week. If nothing pans out, I guess I'll call it good. The head is definitely not stock, they did a good job on the 2V conversion, and lots of good porting around the valve guides too. I had the oversize valves installed as well, and a valve job. So surely these things will make a noticeable difference.


Luke

[JackFish]

Have you seen all the valve guide bosses?
Like did they give it back with the valves installed?
Pocket porting is something that's IMHO is worth it on these heads.

[Luke76]

Yes, the head was returned with all the valves installed. I purchased the valves from Classic Inlines (1.75" intake, 1.5" exhaust) and they installed those as part of the work. With the valves installed it's hard to look in and see the guide bosses, but yes, they did smooth them all out. Here is a photo of the #1 exhaust guide, they did a pretty good job looks like to me. The red stuff is the assembly lube, of course.

[Luke76]

Earlier this week I went and spoke with a guy who runs a porting business from his garage, Portflow Technologies, in Albany, Oregon. I don't think he even has a website, but came recommended to me from a local machine shop. He went over the head and checked out the port divider. His advice to me was that it was not worth it to do additional porting at this stage, especially given the type of build I'm doing. He did note that the divider was poorly installed and pointed out to me that there was such a large gap between the horizontal divider plate and the top of the exhaust tunnel that actually the 3 & 4 ports are not divided. But anyway, at this point it is what it is and it would be expensive and perhaps not to any point to grind away on it more.

That's basically the advice I'm getting here as well - so, I'm calling the porting work done.

In other news... Pony called the other day and the carb is shipping. I had a heck of a time buying a carb from them, this was a few weeks ago when I called them. The guy on the phone didn't understand the concept behind what Classic Inlines is calling a "2V conversion", he told me he refused to sell me something when he knew it wouldn't work, etc, etc... I had to argue with him for about 30 minutes before he finally gave in, and said he'd have to call Mike at CI to get the scoop on what these people were up to. I've never had such a hard time getting someone to take four hundred bucks off me.

The only piece I'm waiting on now are the new rocker arms from Classic Inlines... I know they are supposed to come out soon but I gather there must be delays somewhere.


Luke

[mugsy]

[quote]The guy on the phone didn't understand the concept behind what Classic Inlines is calling a "2V conversion", he told me he refused to sell me something when he knew it wouldn't work, etc, etc... [/quote]

Sounds like the same arrogant SOB I dealt with there named "Jon". Good luck if you have any technical difficulties. He'll only become a bigger SOB. And I bought a stock 1V from them that ran worse than the 1940 it replaced.

[JackFish]

In other news... Pony called the other day and the carb is shipping. I had a heck of a time buying a carb from them, this was a few weeks ago when I called them. The guy on the phone didn't understand the concept behind what Classic Inlines is calling a "2V conversion", he told me he refused to sell me something when he knew it wouldn't work, etc, etc... I had to argue with him for about 30 minutes before he finally gave in, and said he'd have to call Mike at CI to get the scoop on what these people were up to. I've never had such a hard time getting someone to take four hundred bucks off me.Luke

I could be quoting any number of threads with a similar story.

[Explorer]

Setting the availability issue aside, one of your first posts, you said you could not afford the CI aluminum head. As of last week you posted having $1200 invested in this head. In hindsight, do you feel you made the right decision? Not being sarcastic, truly curious. I have two more builds in the future, first just a minor upgrade, but the second will be rather extensive. Trying to decide if I wish to get on the waiting list or explore other options.

[Luke76]

Yes Mugsy, Jon was the guy I got. A real crank. I hadn't read the other threads so I was unprepared. What's worse, they must be on the east coast or something, since the call came in at like 6 in the morning. I wasn't even awake, and I'd hardly opened my eyes and gotten out the words "Ford Six" before he lit into me. I got out of bed, and there I am buck naked, pacing back and forth in the hall outside our bedroom, having a heated argument with this guy at the ass-crack of dawn, so God only knows what the wife thought about that. She's been pretty tolerant of this Granada business, but still...

RE: Mr. Explorer, you raise a good point. In fact just the other day I was counting up all the shekels I've been spending and it prompted me to go back again and take a look at the CI head, and see where I stood. Let's say you buy an "assembled" aluminum head, which includes a valve job, and you get it milled to your desired C/R but skip the option of any porting. That comes to $1,660 plus you need to add $285 for the intake manifold, so you're looking at basically $1,950. Porting adds several hundred dollars more if you choose it.

Mike's head prices include valves (but not springs), so to compare with what I've done:
$100 - price of head from salvage yard
$1,200 - porting and milling and valve jobs
$160 - stainless valves
$45 - 2V adapter

That comes to $1,500. If you already have a head laying around, or in your vehicle, I guess you could save another hundred bucks or so.

In the end I guess the difference is around $500 at the closest, but it could be more depending on the options you choose. Of course price isn't the only comparison. Mike's flow testing has shown an un-ported aluminum head already out-performs a ported large log head. So you're getting more performance for that extra $500.

It's true, after you spend all this amount $500 doesn't sound like much. I'd say it comes down to what kind of performance you're wanting. If I had been building a Mustang, instead of a Granada, and if as you say the availability issues were resolved, and if I knew then what I know now, I'd probably have taken a harder look at the CI head.


Luke

[MPGmustang]

I guess not only the CL Alum head but what about the other mods like the gas pedal/linkage, head bolts, gaskets, and even more time geting it perfect. the log head will bolt right up, and use most/all of the parts you already have. there will still might be hidden expenses on the large log too that hasn't come up yet. But I think your doing a great Job.

I know I woudn't mind a CI Alum Head.

[kevinl1058]

Luke,
Sorry to hear about your negative experience with PER. They were great with both my dad and I with our builds. They would often call us both down to seethe various stages of the engine builds. I have had similiar experiences with other build with poor shop communication, but since I referred them to you I wish that it would have turned out better.Here is a pic of the headwork they did for me. GOod luck on the rest of your build. KEv
http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f345/ ... ure679.jpg

[Luke76]

MPG, in my case I decided to use aftermarket head studs (ARP), probably a new throttle linkage (can't say for sure until I see the carb), no to mention kickdown, and I'll have to replace the head gasket anyhow. But you're right, a person could use the stock bolts and other such. For sure there are a lot of incidental expenses no matter what, and it's hard to visualize them all at the beginning. It's easy to see the big items but the small stuff really adds up once you get going. Gaskets, new air cleaner for the new carb, engine paint, etc, etc... Not all of it might be strictly necessary, but once you start digging in you start thinking, "well, since I have it apart I might as well do this and that too..."

But the primary problem with the aluminum head in my mind, is that it's a very long wait to get one.

Kev, no worries on the recommendation. The truth is they did good work and having them do the job saved me all the hassle of shipping a head to Arizona and back. They are a quality shop and other than the port divider and the fact they milled the head without consulting me on the amount, I'm generally happy with how it turned out. The problem was just the lack of communication, and maybe I should have been more of a hard-ass about it.

The truth is, and I hate to say this, but you have a really sweet ride, and when they saw your Falcon it probably looked like a really cool project to be involved with. On the other hand, when I tell them this head is going in a Granada, I think eyes roll and it just becomes work.

All I can say is this has been a really big learning experience. As another example of how important it is to make absolutely sure you are getting what you think you're getting, when I bought the cylinder head sight-unseen from the Engine Rebuilders Supply, I specifically asked for and was told I was getting a 78 or later head (D8 casting). I tried to be very clear about this but they delivered the head directly to PER and I never actually inspected it. Three months later, I get the head back and of course it's a D5 casting. Yeah, I guess it's a small thing in the big scheme of the universe, but so unnecessary to screw up. A lot of this was my fault for not being more of a stickler with everyone, and being too willing to take people at their word.


Luke

[kevinl1058]

Yeah,
I was on site and inspected the head and block my self.. I actually took the head with me and had them deliver the block to PER.. I had some paint work done on the Falcon and simply told the painter that when they see the car its either going to be who did your work and there will be a positive review or a negative one.. So I brought the car back until it was done right. Nothing wrong with being a hard ass... Are you going to the FOrd Show in August down at Woodburn. If so I'll catch up with yo then.
KEv

[Luke76]

My friendly mail-lady just delivered the carb! Looks nice. The only problem I see immediately off the bat is that I'm going to need some kind of spacer between the carb and 2V plate, otherwise the throttle lever hits the top of the log manifold. I see CI sells a 1/2" spacer, but my measurements show I actually need something a tad higher. Maybe I can grind off a small bit from the throttle linkage, and maybe all the gaskets will give me just enough height? I guess I would use a gasket between the 2V adapter and the spacer, and then again between the spacer and the carb? The 2V adapter is epoxied to the log so no gasket there.

The carb comes with a choke tube but I don't think it will be long enough to reach the headers. I suppose I'll just want to buy a choke stove kit. More incidentals! Not to mention I'll need some bolts for the carb, it didn't come with any and they'd probably be too short even if it did, once I use the spacer. I assume these are something I can cheap out on and get at the hardware store, surely there is no need for special jillion-dollar ARP studs for a carb?

It's still unclear whether my stock throttle cable will work... won't know till I get the head fitted. I might just order a Lokar cable now in case, I can always return it if I don't need it. I haven't figure out what I'm going to do about the kick-down linkage, I have the weird bar assembly. Maybe I'll get uber lucky and it will just work?

Hey Kev, I didn't know about the Woodburn show, thanks for pointing it out. I don't know if I'll make it or not, but if I do I'll let you know. I'd certainly like to see your Falcon sometime. Hopefully by August 15 I'll be in the middle of a head swap!


Luke

[MPGmustang]

"well, since I have it apart I might as well do this and that too..."

Yeah, I'm kinda glad I did tho, because in the end it wouldn't be what I wanted, i'm very intrested to hear about your 2bbl running on your car with the stock bottom. the roller rockers will help raise AVG power, are you sticking with the 1.6 ratio? or going higher?

Will you replace the rest of the exhaust?

[Luke76]

Hi Richard, I originally ordered the RAS roller-tipped rockers from Mike but after a while of them being back-ordered he told me RAS is no longer making the rocker arms. The RAS rockers were 1.6 ratio. Instead Mike decided to have his own CI rockers manufactured, he is going to offer them in several ratios but the first available will be 1.65, and that's what I'm theoretically going to be getting. I know he has been expecting them for some time now but I gather they are still not available, so who really knows when they'll show up.

Yes, I am replacing the entire exhaust. Like you I went with the CI stainless headers. On my build I'm using a Y-adapter to a single 2.25" exhaust. I'm concerned about the headers clearing the AC compressor bracket but I'm saving the exhaust to last so I still haven't waded into all that yet. Muffler selection has been really hard as well, I want something quiet since this is supposed to be a sleeper, but not something that sounds Asian. For now I have a generic Summit Racing turbo muffler but who knows, it might be changed out at a later date. The other muffler I considered was a Flowmaster 70 Series, but even there I'm not sure if it might be too loud.

I am still looking around for someone who might be renting shop space, if I can find that before I do the swap then I will pull the block, swap the cam, and probably put in new pistons while I'm at it. But it doesn't look likely I'll find such a space, and even if I do I won't be taking the block to a machine shop, so no decking for now. This means I won't be getting anywhere close to the 9.3 C/R you achieved.

All the same, even with the stock lower end I'm hoping to see a noticeable difference from the head swap and exhaust upgrade, but all remains to be seen...


Luke

[Luke76]

My Pony carb came with an "instructional" DVD that consists mostly of footage shot in 1989 of Jon Enyeart describing the installation of the 2100. It's pretty dry but actually had some fairly informative moments scattered throughout. I gather this is the guy I talked to naked at 6 in the morning a few weeks ago... Well, what can I say, at least he bothered to call me.

One thing watching this video made me think about is my arrangement for my PCV valve. It looks like Ford was using a special carb spacer with a PCV fitting built-in. As mentioned earlier I'm going to need a spacer for my carb anyway, I was considering the Classic Inlines ABS spacer/insulators, but they have no such port. Just by doing a preliminary Google search I've come up with a few 65-66 Mustang spacers on eBay, that have the PCV nipple, but they're running $50 plus and don't look to be in that hot of condition either. Are there other cars/years I could be searching for that have the Autolite 2100 spacer that includes the PCV fitting?

And I don't suppose it would be appropriate to pull vacuum for the PCV system from the manifold?


Luke

[kevinl1058]

Luke,
You have 2 choices either use the manifold port or run a breather as I did.
Kev