300 I6 Cam ideas

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300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby 84FordVan » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:21 pm

Just wonderin, I am building a 300 with 11.5:1 Static CR and I want to throw a little cam at it. How much cam can I get away with without hurting my mileage too much? I will be running either 92 or E-85 through a carb and eventually I will go to a dual 2.8l tbi setup with megasquirt. I am running 2.75:1 gears in a 9" rear end with 28" tall tires, and a stock C6 tranny. Will install a shift kit in the tranny hopefully soon. All this is in a 1984 Ford E-150 that weighs approximately 4750 lbs.
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby StrangeRanger » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:54 pm

11.5:1?? And you're only planning on running92 octane? You'd better find a station that sells 100 octane race gas. You're going to need it.

4750 lbs and 2.75 gears is going to be a complete stone. At the very least, you should think about the WR gearset for your C6. Even then it won't be anything like quick.
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby 82F100 » Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:12 pm

Look at Comp Cams Extreme energy grinds for the sbf especialy the 262-274 grinds. I'm not an expert on any of this stuff but think they would work good in our motors if you concentrate on producing torque. The gears i would suggest 3.55-3.73 to help get the weight moving.
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby Lazy JW » Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:25 pm

With that much compression you do NOT want a short-duration, RV-type cam; make it at least 270º with a wide LSA so as to have a late intake closing event and you might get away with it. Maybe.
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby 84FordVan » Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:37 pm

No hostility intended by this. I'm sorry I didn't specify this thing's use. It will be used mainly for towing a trailer and driving myself around. BTW, you would've been surprised to see what this thing was like when my engine wasn't worn out. It actually accellerated pretty good. That was with less than stock torque and horsepower when the thing weighed 5000 lbs. And I said the wrong weight, it's now closer to 4500 lbs, which isn't much heavier than your average full size pickup. They put the 2.75 gears in LOTS of 9" rear ends from the factory. And another thing about my fuel, 92 will be fine and I also stated I would run E-85 too which is 97+ octane, my father built an engine with domed pistons and it ran beautifully on pumpgas, and my friend runs his turbo 3.8 gokart on 87 with 9.4:1 and it doesn't start pinging till it hits 6 PSI of boost which would calculate to approximately 13.2:1 CR after boost. Thanks.
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby 80broncoman » Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:59 am

Lazy JW wrote:With that much compression you do NOT want a short-duration, RV-type cam; make it at least 270º with a wide LSA so as to have a late intake closing event and you might get away with it. Maybe.
Joe


Joe is right on this one. 11.25 comp doesn't go with a "little cam"
In fact 1 11.25 compression ratio, 2 4500 lbs, 3 towing, 4 MPG, 5 2.75 gears .
Usally one of these is NOT found with the others. One exception with propane,E85, straight alky, fine but if you run out do NOT try to run it on ANY 87 octane.
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby Lazy JW » Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:54 am

84FordVan wrote:........ It will be used mainly for towing a trailer........

..........my friend runs his turbo 3.8 gokart on 87 with 9.4:1 and it doesn't start pinging till it hits 6 PSI of boost which would calculate to approximately 13.2:1 CR after boost.....


Please do not misunderstand, there is a world of difference between trailer towing for long periods of time and short-duration gokart acceleration.

There is a reason why the Ford engine designers actually REDUCED the compression ratio on the Heavy Duty 300's that were destined for use in the larger trucks (up to 26,000 lbs gross). I have no idea what your trailer towing scenario involves, but any time you tie a tail onto a pickup it is wise to consider the consequences.
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby StrangeRanger » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:14 pm

If you're intent on keeping the 2.75 gears, you're going to want an engine/trans build that makes beaucoup torque at low RPM and maintains a wide torque band to carry you through the gears. The cam that does that (as JW pointed out earlier) is not compatible with 11.5:1 compression. In the long run you're going to be much happier with a 9.0:1 CR (or less), an RV cam and a WR gearset in that C6.

So other than being able to brag that you have 11.5:1 compression, why exactly do you want it? The increases in performance that you get from that sort of a CR are more than offset by the loss of usable RPM range that it also creates, not to mention the additional expense of premium (or better) fuel.
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby Buddy Rawls » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:37 pm

filling the cylinder (within a particular rpm range) involves an area under the lift curve and starting points and closing points in relation to piston position, read in terms of crank rotation. the engine's static compression is pretty much matched to supplement the engine dynamic compression capability, maintaining a good margin of dynamic compression which produces good torque and utilizing the inlet charge as well as possible (volumetric efficiency). Knock rating of the fuel dictates how much of a positive margin of dynamic compression the motor can tolerate, and use to its benefit.

high static compression is required when valve events are positioned in a manner (typically wider) that dynamic compression is compromised. Those valve events typically will not produce as clean of off-idle response and extreme low end that conservative valve events would. The reason being the wider valve events are more productive at the higher rpms.

When conservative valve events are dictated but there is a mismatch in regards to the static compression, the main thing that has to occur is for the motor (ignition and dynamic compression primarily) to be fooled into thinking everything is right. This means the seat events need to be widened and the position of the exhaust lobe in such a manner to start the evacuation earlier (killing cylinder pressure). In short, wider seat durations, lazy ramp rates, and earlier exhaust events (typically as a wider lobe sep angle). Likewise on the flip side, too low of static compression needs to be met with narrower seat events and higher ramp rates.

Basically, you take cylinder filling (performance) capability away from the motor and let the higher static compression fill in that gap. If you have regular selection of higher octane fuels then that cushion can be absorbed somewhat, but you have to acknowledge that as a tow vehicle and high rear-end ratio that your rpm range is going to be optimized in pretty low ranges (1800-2400). Valve events that promote performance in this range, paired up with a pretty serious static compression, even with good fuel, are not going to be something that a blind stab at a cam catalog based on rpm range alone is going to compensate for.
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby shmoozo » Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:06 pm

84FordVan wrote:No hostility intended by this. I'm sorry I didn't specify this thing's use. It will be used mainly for towing a trailer and driving myself around.


Then the last thing you want to build for that truck is an engine with an 11.5:1 compression ratio.

No readily available pump gas formulation (including E85) has enough octane to run well in an engine with a CR that high and a daily driver/tow rig style cam.
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby 84FordVan » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:02 pm

By "Throw a little cam at it" I by no means meant little cam, I meant a little more cam duration. It's an expression I use.
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby Lazy JW » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:55 pm

84FordVan wrote:By "Throw a little cam at it" I by no means meant little cam, I meant a little more cam duration. It's an expression I use.

Go for it! Keep us posted on the results,
Joe
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby StrangeRanger » Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:17 pm

Crower Cams does a lot of custom cam design in their skunk works.
You really should contact them, or another cam grinder about your intended build.
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby 84FordVan » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:14 am

Changed my plans, going with 8.5:1 and a turbo. Will keep everyone up to date though.
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby StrangeRanger » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:26 pm

Do yourself a favor. Start with a turbo map and develop the plan from there.
And remember that the head gaskets for a 300 won't hold high boost pressures
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby 84FordVan » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:07 pm

I'm only gonna run 5 PSI boost, I'm sure it'll hold that.
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:14 pm

Like nitrous, 5 psi has a habit of becomming 8 psi, then 10 then...

Build it to last at twice that boost then you wont be looking at oily puddles on the ground.
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby 82F100 » Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:10 pm

FTF, whats your thought on this cam?
Comp Cams Hyd, XE274 rpm range 1800-6000
advertised 274-286
@ .050" 230-236
Valve lift .519 -.523
LSA 110

Very strong torque and throttle response, 2500+ stall
78' pinto full tube chassis 300/c-4 under construction
Image 300's make good truck motors....not race motors
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby 84FordVan » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:02 pm

F100, what kind of vehicle would this cam be put in, just curious.
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby 82F100 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:00 pm

84FordVan wrote:F100, what kind of vehicle would this cam be put in, just curious.

Mostly a street/strip vehicle .Check online at CompCams.com, Check their profiles for the sbf Exreme Energy grinds,I'm using the Extreme Energy 262 in my motor and someone else used a similar grind in a 200,motor put out 1 hp per cu.in. You'd would probably be better off with something within the lower rpm range for towing etc.
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby StrangeRanger » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:04 pm

Or if he goes with a Turbo, a turbo-specific cam like Isky's 331-TA
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:23 pm

82F100 wrote:FTF, whats your thought on this cam?
Comp Cams Hyd, XE274 rpm range 1800-6000
advertised 274-286
@ .050" 230-236
Valve lift .519 -.523
LSA 110

Very strong torque and throttle response, 2500+ stall


That cam sounds like what I am looking for to run in my nostalgia altered car. Good zoom zoom and minimal valvetrain maintenance.

Send it to me.
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby 82F100 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:07 am

FTF, that grind is for a 351W, saw some other grinds especially in the FE section of their catalog same cam series( Xtreme Energy) that would be interesting to try in a 6.
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:09 am

My bubble has been burst.
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby 84FordVan » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:55 am

StrangeRanger, that's the exact cam I was looking to run. I actually stumbled on it by mistake when looking through cams on their site. Sounds like one heck of a deal, cam and kit all for 440$. Can't really go wrong there. Nice 114* lobe center on that one too, I like that.
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby 82F100 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:40 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:My bubble has been burst.

?????? :? :oopsie:
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Re: 300 I6 Cam ideas

Postby StrangeRanger » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:03 pm

How about Isky's 321280
advertised duration 280°
duration @ .050" 224°
Valve lift .465
LSA 109°

Or Crower's 19205
advertised duration 284/290°
duration @ .050" 220/222°
Valve lift .509/517"
LSA 110°
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