rear main seal installation...

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rear main seal installation...

Postby green66f250 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:40 pm

hello all, i have searched and cannot find any information in this forum about installing the rear main seal. i am about ready to put my motor together and would rather know ahead of time what i need. thanks in advance. paul.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:25 pm

tHE REAR MAIN SEAL NSTALLS AFTER THE REAR mAIN CAP IS TORQUED IN PLACE. It is best done using a seal driver w/ a hammer but it can also be hammered into place by placing a piece of flat hardwood on the edge of the seal and tapping it in. Start one side and then tap the opposite side and move around the seal tapping it until the edge of the seal is flush with the rear surface of the block/cap. Don't tap it in too far. Be sure to lube the crank and seal lip with oil.

By the way, a dual-lip seal from a Modular V8 works too.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby green66f250 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:53 pm

thanks FTF, so what you are saying the rear main seal from a 4.6/5.4 has two lips and is better? thanks in advance... paul.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:56 pm

They have an inner sealing lip and an outer "dust shield" lip. The extra lip provides an extra measure of protection against wearing a groove in the crank.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby green66f250 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:27 pm

thank you FTF, i appreciate the clarification. i will try to post some pictures when i assemble the motor. right now i am painting the sheet metal for the motor. the bigger prodject is cleaning up the garage. i have a substantial INVENTORY to catalog. yah right. to add to this my friend mailed the title to his 1968 international 4x4 this week. like i can pass on that for six bills. did not even ask when i was going to pay him. i live old school. i digress. tommorow i pick the block up in colfax. sheet metal and intake hot tanked , pistons and rods hung, and cam bearings installed- $97.00. later. paul.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby 66 E100 Pickup » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:25 am

A short piece of 4" Schedule 40 PVC is a very good size for making a seal driver. I think I might have went around it with a file to get the size just right, but it worked great. Put a chunk of 2 x 4 on the end of the PVC and tap it in the center of the pipe.

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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby green66f250 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:47 am

thanks john, i honestly would have bought the real tool if i could have found one. i will look at the hardware store today. between my box of hardwood scraps and pvc pipe it should not be a problem. paul.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby 68coupe200 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:27 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:
By the way, a dual-lip seal from a Modular V8 works too.



Its good to know this, seeing as I'm assembling my new engine. I'll have to consider the dual-lip seal as an upgrade to the factory one piece unit. FTF you are just a wealth of knowledge!
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby green66f250 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:48 am

good news! i found the rotunda ford 4.9 rear seal driver. thirty and change shipped. i am thrilled.(tool fetish) paul.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby 71PA_Highboy » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:39 am

Not meant to be a hijack, but does anyone have the part number for the correct modular seal? If not, what years/sizes work?

Counter monkeys at the local parts stores can't seem to find a windshield wiper without knowing if you have an auto or manual trans, so I am sure if I walk in and ask for a rear main seal for a mod motor their eyes will roll up into their heads and I will stand there.... waiting .... while they call the manager .... :bang:

Thanks for any assistance!

Eric
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby Lazy JW » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:09 am

NAPA has a pretty good on-line parts list. Trouble is, I don't have a clue what a "Modular V8" is.

So, my question is: What is a Modular V8 called? What size, year?
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby green66f250 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:06 am

hi JW, i believe the moduler engine is the 4.6/5.4 . this may also include the 3.0 v-6 as when i was looking for the main seal installer i had to look up other applications, the look thru the stores inventory. i found a tool for removing the 4.6/3.0 rear seal then searched store for what i wanted. PLEASE VERIFY as i have not checked this out beyond this. may the more knowledgable masters share their wisdom. paul.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby Lazy JW » Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:22 am

Anyone know what year/type vehicle in which this elusive Modular V8 may be lurking?
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby FordJim » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:58 pm

I am wondering about this seal as well. According to the Timken seal application book, the 300 takes a Timken 2377 seal. The 4.6L and 5.4L modular V8 takes a Timken 3909. However:

Timken 2377 is for a shaft diameter of 3.75" and presses into a bore of 4.501"
Timken 3909 is for a shaft diameter of 3.625" and presses into a bore of 4.24"

Maybe I looked up the wrong engines?
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby bubba22349 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:54 pm

The 4.6 V8 Mod motors were first put in the Lincolns in 1991, 92 into the Crown Vic's, Tbird's about 95 in Mustangs about 96 or 97. 97 for trucks.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby woodbutcher » Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:20 pm

:? Just a quick question.What year did Ford start with the one piece seal in the 300?
Thanks.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:49 am

Lazy JW wrote:So, my question is: What is a Modular V8 called? What size, year?


4.6, 5.4, 6.8

Unless there has been a change in the modular seal it should fit. I've been using them.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:51 am

woodbutcher wrote::? Just a quick question.What year did Ford start with the one piece seal in the 300?
Thanks.
Leo


1965

The one piece pan seal came along about 1986.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby 71PA_Highboy » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:01 am

FTF,

I am not trying to be obtuse, nor am I trying to be difficult, but if the information provided by FordJim is correct, how are you using the ones he listed? There is over 1/4" diference in the OD of the seals, and even for an intereference fit that is a bit much... ;)

I will probably just use the C7 seal I already have, but I find the situation interesting.

Can you please add some more information to clarify?

Thanks in advance for your additional input.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby Lazy JW » Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:07 pm

FordJim wrote:I am wondering about this seal as well. According to the Timken seal application book, the 300 takes a Timken 2377 seal. The 4.6L and 5.4L modular V8 takes a Timken 3909. However:

Timken 2377 is for a shaft diameter of 3.75" and presses into a bore of 4.501"
Timken 3909 is for a shaft diameter of 3.625" and presses into a bore of 4.24"

Maybe I looked up the wrong engines?


Hmmmmm...
I looked up the rear main seal for the 300 (1985) and the 4.6 (1997) on the NAPA website; I came up with the same dimensions as FordJim.

I had previously done some searching and found that the NAPA Part# FPG BS40645 seal can be used on early and late 300's also the late 351W. In my notes I wrote "Is this the same as a FM 5278"?
The quest continues.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby Lazy JW » Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:19 pm

Also found this seal listed for a 351W.




Qty

Rear Main Seal Set - Hi-Perf
Product Line: FEL-PRO Gaskets
Part Number: FPG 2942RS
Price:
Price
Unit
:
:
21.49
Each
Features & Benefits Premium PTFE; High Performance One Piece Rear Main Bearing Seal.; Designed for High Vacuum Applications.
Warranty Warrantied to be Free from Defects in Workmanship or Material for One Year from Date of Purchase. Breach of Warranty is Limited to Free Exchange of Product if Part Found to be Defective. Liability for Neglect, Misuse or Incidental Damages is Disclaimed.
Warranty PDF
Material Safety Data Sheet There is no MSDS for this item
Application Information: 1995 Ford Truck F150 1/2 Ton - Pickup
Engines : 5.8 L 351 CID V8 Windsor
Engine VIN Codes : H
Comments: Windsor Eng.;Premium PTFE;1 Piece High Vacuum;3.684" X 4.515" X .390"
Per Car Qty: 1

Engines : 5.8 L 351 CID V8 Windsor
Engine VIN Codes : R
Comments: Windsor Eng.;Premium PTFE;1 Piece High Vacuum;3.684" X 4.515" X .390"
Per Car Qty: 1

I may have to see if I can inspect one of these in person.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby green66f250 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:49 pm

all good imformation, i hope someone can verify this. say a little prayer to the all knowing ford gurus.. paul.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby woodbutcher » Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:14 pm

:beer: Hi FTF.Thanks.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:53 pm

Hmmm. Unfortunately I'm in the Florida Keys working on my tan for a while so I'm unable to check my records. My recollection was that the dual lip seal I am using was originally for the mod motor. I hope nobody acted on my erroneous info if that be the case.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby Lazy JW » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:32 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:Hmmm. Unfortunately I'm in the Florida Keys working on my tan ....


Tough duty, but someone has to do it :lol:
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby woodbutcher » Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:01 pm

:rolflmao: Hi FTF.Tan OR surface rust?
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby Seattle Smitty » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:57 pm

He means tan. Surface rust is what we get in Seattle.

My memory isn't what it used to be, and never was, but I thought I recalled the 240 in my '66 Econoline having a rope seal . . . maybe I'm thinking of a couple of old Rambler sixes I built in those years . . .

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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby green66f250 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:19 pm

Seattle Smitty, all 240/300s have a one peice main seal including my 65. paul.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby Seattle Smitty » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:32 pm

I have an excellent memory; it's just short.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby bubba22349 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:01 pm

:rolflmao: got that same condistion
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby woodbutcher » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:42 am

:rolflmao: Hi SS.X2.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby 90F150Custom » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:36 pm

Use Ford part # F4AZ-6701-A

fits the Duratec and Triton line of engines from 92 to current in sizes 2.5L,3.0L,4.6L,5.4L and 6.8L

OEM part #F1TZ-6701-A is the one for the 4.9L


Now going by Napa #NOS-37338 which interchanges with the F1TZ-6701-A

Specs are
Rear Main Seal I.D. : 3.75"
Rear Main Seal O.D. : 4.517"
Rear Main Seal Width : .381"

which measuring a F4AZ-6701-A in the package still with a micrometer it is close enough I think it would work and will try it on my own 4.9L

BTW I work in a Ford dealership parts department, I just didn't have an F1TZ-6701-A in stock to compare.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:36 pm

I'm home now.

Here are photos of the single lip 300 seal and the dual lip seal - in brown - I have been using.

Unfortunately I can't locate the part number of the seal. Can anyone identify it by looking at the photo?

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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby 90F150Custom » Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:40 pm

Info is in my previous post for parts #'s to cross reference
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:01 pm

90F150Custom wrote:Info is in my previous post for parts #'s to cross reference

Thanks. We seemed to have homed in on it.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby bubba22349 » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:37 pm

Was doing small repairs on my old 94 Wednesday and noticed the oil bottom of bell. Looks like it will be time to replace it.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby 71PA_Highboy » Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:41 pm

Well,

I would have to say that there are some errors here.

I just crossed F4AZ-6701-A to National 3909. It is 3.85" OD

I measured the one I removed from my engine C7AE-9701-B. It is 4.5" OD.

I am not sure how these are supposed to be compatible.

Tomorrow I will buy the one for the 351W as suggested by Lazy JW.


Any other suggestions?


TIA,

Eric
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby 90F150Custom » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:05 pm

I can't speak for non oem parts. Just what I had in my hand off the shelf
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby 71PA_Highboy » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:17 pm

Ok,

Just got back from Advance Auto.

They list the same part for:
95 F150 5.8 (H)
95 F150 4.9
78 F150 4.9

Of course they didn't have it in stock... :roll:

The mod motor (F4xx part number listed above) won't work.

I ordered the part from NAPA so we will see how it fits Tuesday...

hth,

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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby 71PA_Highboy » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:53 pm

So,

i just got back from NAPA...

FelPro BS 40645 is the correct hi-performance seal (Teflon). I have it in my car and will take pics and install it tonight.

By label it fits the 351W as suggested by Lazy JW and is listed to fit the 300 (4.9) too.

HTH,

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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby 90F150Custom » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:19 pm

I ordered in the seal for the 4.9( I have to replace mine anyway) and will take pics when it gets here
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby bigredsix » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:52 pm

my rear main has been leaking for a while. really dreading replacing it though.. good info on the double lip. i'll have to keep an eye on this thread.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby 71PA_Highboy » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:46 pm

OK,

Felpro BS 40645 works. It is the teflon version (~$21). There is one that is not teflon (~$14).

It is the 2 lip seal for the 351W (after 7/10/83-91), (4.9L) 300 65-97

I have pics, but probably won't get them uploaded tonight.

Enjoy!

Eric
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby green66f250 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:44 pm

thanks to everyone for all the information. this forum and others like it make it much easier than the old way of asking one or two sources and hoping for the best. i think i need the teflon seal! paul.
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby Lazy JW » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:50 pm

71PA_Highboy wrote:OK,

Felpro BS 40645 works. It is the teflon version (~$21). There is one that is not teflon (~$14).

It is the 2 lip seal for the 351W (after 7/10/83-91), (4.9L) 300 65-97

I have pics, but probably won't get them uploaded tonight.

Enjoy!

Eric


Thanks Eric!
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby 71PA_Highboy » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:43 am

Pics as promised.

The Felpro seal:
Image
Image

an original ford C7 seal:
Image
Image

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71PA_Highboy
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby 90F150Custom » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:49 pm

Ok, Got the F1TZ6701A in stock. It is a superseded part # that is a double lip seal and it also fits the 351W. So a Mod Engine seal will not fit.



So the above statements are correct.
1990 F-150 4.9L (project)
2010 F-150 5.4 (daily driver)
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Re: rear main seal installation...

Postby cdherman » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:32 pm

I confess that I don't come back here often enough. Took me 15 minutes of h*ll to get logged in....

Here is the text of my 2009 post on this subject -- too bad the search function either doesn't work or was not used...

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The late era 4.9 takes the same seal as the 351. Interestingly, the early 351w had smaller rear main seals than the 4.9. Somewhere along the way (I researched this in detail before I replaced my rear main) Ford redesigned the seal for the 351w (and I think 302 etc as well, same block....) and used the same dimentions as the 300. (Another example of a 300 being superior to a SBF)

The material is differnt and the seal has an outer plastic dust seal. It is NOT a double lip seal as some have suggested. However, it is possible that the newer style seal does run in a little different location on the crank, which would be of advantage if there was some scorring (and you were too lazy to sleave the crank).

You don't have to ask for the modular V-8 seal -- just get one for a 95 4.9 The part numbers are the same. FWIW, My Federal Mogul / National Box has #5278 on it, and I can vouch that it drops into an early 240 block quite nicely.

I have no idea why they still make the old rubber seal with a spring in it. But if you look up the rear main for an early 300 you will get the old seal. If you look up the seal for a 95, you get the new one. Block and crank are the same......

As suggested, two sheet metal screws at 180 degrees. I used a cats paw (nail puller for nails) that I had laying around and it worked incredibly well. I also took a nice soft piece of 2x4 and whittled (I work with wood as well) a wood block that matched the curve of the new seal. Its large and tapping around the periphery of the thing often results in it just tilting in the race. Anyhow, the whittled wood tool worked real nice too, but a hammer and little block of any old soft wood works too I'd guess.....

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'65 F100 240, swapped to C4, Autolite 1101, Pertronix
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