Aluminum cylinder head

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Aluminum cylinder head

Postby Earlvan » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:19 pm

What's up with the aluminum cylinder head being made? It's got my van motor on hold and it getting very old.
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby StrangeRanger » Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:12 pm

Mike's Aussie vendor went tits up and he had to start over very nearly from zero with another source
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby Earlvan » Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:34 pm

OH No! I hope it's still in the workings?
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby Fordman75 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:27 pm

I read in some post that it would be sometime this summer and he'd post an update on it. :beer:
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby Ferris Bueller » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:12 am

The market for an aluminum 300 head is shrinking every year. He is taking a fair risk in making an aluminum 300 head.
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby Fordman75 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:29 am

Ferris Bueller wrote:The market for an aluminum 300 head is shrinking every year. He is taking a fair risk in making an aluminum 300 head.


I don't think that's true. They built millions of these motors and they have a pretty large following. Plus with the gas prices going up there are guys going with the 300's thinking they will get better mileage. :rolflmao:
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby Emerald 74 4X4 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:14 am

Ferris Bueller wrote:The market for an aluminum 300 head is shrinking every year. He is taking a fair risk in making an aluminum 300 head.


He does have a point. When I was 21, 22 years old building my 300, I had more money, more time, and more gumption to have fun and tinker with it. At 27 years old now, I have less time and money allocated towards more things of importance. If an affordable aluminum head would have been available 5 years ago, I very well would have saved and purchased one. Nowadays, I cannot constitute a purchase like that unless I was to "get back into it" with the ole 300. Don't get me wrong, I love the thing, but I need to find more time, and I am getting bored of it. If the aluminum head was out, I would be more inclined to purchase on the basis of "something new and exciting". Sometimes it takes some new parts to re-kindle the fire once lit on a long project such as many we all have here. After a while, you get bored trying to figure out how all these darn Chevy V8 parts will adapt, or how to get the time and materials needed to fab up whatever you are thinking about on the back burner.

If it takes another 2 years or longer, my desire to purchase will have passed and when it does come out, the chances of me buying it are much much less. It already has by 50%.

I by no means want it to be rushed into production in a poor manner. Time and money are of the essence these days, and something like this just either happens or it doesn't. Or someday it does, and when that day is, whoever is in the market or happens to run across it on the web will purchase it. The amount of demand for it at that point in time is more or less undeterminable though.
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby Lazy JW » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:31 am

Fordman75 wrote:... there are guys going with the 300's thinking they will get better mileage. :rolflmao:

The FE drivers will see an improvement :mrgreen: :nod:
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby JohnMcD348 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:29 am

I've read through some of the threads on the Aluminum head but didn't really get into the why and what fors' of it. Is it a Cross flow head? Does it have a marked increase in performance? Maybe I just haven't found the right thread yet.
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby Lazy JW » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:06 am

It is planned to be a U-flow head (non cross-flow) with improved breathing.
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby 90F150Custom » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:59 pm

I am interested in it....but what price range are we talking about here?
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby StrangeRanger » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:46 pm

No pricing yet.

In general, I see this head as more aimed at the guys who have stuffed 300s into race cars where the weight reduction of over 50# (and substantially lowering the center of mass) is going to be a major benefit. You just aren't going to get anything beneficial from that in a truck. However, the ability of aluminum to handle approx 0.5 points more CR than iron can is going to help out in any performance build.

Until we see flow numbers vs. a prepped iron head we won't know the gains in that dept. but I suspect they won't be nearly as dramatic as they were on the small six head. There's just not a lot of room left in a U-flow head that can be taken advantage of for increasing or straightening the ports beyond what can already be done in iron. I hope Mike proves me wrong on this one.
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby melavery » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:22 pm

HI all
A while back sent an e-mail Edelbrock about the possibility of a crossflow AL head for the 300 6 and the 4 ltr jeep 6. There reply was that it would cost $50000 each for each head design work. Seems a shame but I bet that if old Mr Vick were still in the works he would have at least looked into it. He was a real hot rodder. Can`t belive that all those v8 al heads are selling that well.
Nuff of that sure wish I had a AL crossflow head. It sure would unlock the real potential of the 300 6. Would make it a lot lighter too. O well nuf of my rantings.
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby 90F150Custom » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:27 pm

If alot of emails flooded Edelbrock they would look into doing something
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby J.R. » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:26 pm

90F150Custom wrote:If alot of emails flooded Edelbrock they would look into doing something


IMO World Products http://www.worldcastings.com/ would be more likely than Edelbrock to do a crossflow head for the Ford BB6. The facts that 1) a sectioned & reconstituted BBC-sourced head apparently(?) fits the Ford BB6 block, and 2) World already does several different BBC heads, wouldn't that give them a great advantage in setting up the molds & machining to create crossflow heads for the Ford 240/300 BB6? Talk about low volume pieces... they're actually taking deposits/orders for new 409 Chevy blocks. Hard to imagine that they'd sell more of those than they would BB6 crossflow heads, but stranger things have happened, I guess.

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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby russk » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:50 pm

Guys:

My understanding is that CI will use roughly the same design choices as they made for their "small Ford" aluminum head. One of the main decisions was to keep the U-flow design so all (most?) existing OEM and aftermarket parts would be useable, thus keeping the cost of ownership down. In addition to the weight and potential CR benefits of an aluminum head, I would expect Mike will reshape the combustion chamber for a better burn, and possibly raise the intake and exhaust ports to give better potential flow. I would also expect that there would be additional meat around the ports to allow for "maximum effort" porting. Finally, I would think CI would raise the valve cover mating surface a bit to give more space for roller rockers and perhaps a girdle. Of course, this is just speculation on my part.

Don't know where the project sits at this point but, once a set of prototype heads are cast and machined, I expect we'll see both "as cast" and "ported" flow numbers. Like others, I'll sure be interested to see the results.

Finally, I'm guessing CI will try to price the head as bare, street (as cast) and ready to bolt on, and at a couple of stages of porting. While I have no idea if CI will provide the 240/300 head at comparable pricing to the small Ford head, you can check out their web site to get an idea. If I recall correctly, the complete "as cast" version of the small Ford head was around $1,750.

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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby 90F150Custom » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:47 pm

I don't know about World vs Edelbrock....right now Edelbrock is looking to make a set of Buick 401(Nailhead) heads....they are actually on some of the Buick forums currently looking for people interested. How many Nailheads are still out there compared to the 4.9L?
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby russk » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:05 pm

Guys:

In addition to my long time interest in inline engines, I have been interested in vintage V8s including the Nailhead Buicks. So I stop by the Nailhead forums from time to time and I've also seen the thread discussing Edelbrock's apparent interest in producing an aluminum (nail) head in addition to one or more intake manifolds. I know nailheads have enjoyed a significant upturn in rodding popularity so maybe there is a bigger potential market than one would think. If Edelbrock does develop an aluminum nailhead product I'm sure it will be because they have done their homework and see acceptable profit potential. Good for the nailhead community if it works out. Unfortunately, at this point, I don't think any other manufacturer other than CI sees a viable market for an affordable 240/300 aluminum head. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the economy gets a little better and that CI continues with their BBF6 project.

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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby 82F100 » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:19 am

Here's my $.002 on the deal, there was a head cast and AZCoupe posted pictures here on the forum, some didn't like the fact that it looked like an aluminum head with the flat ends on it and wanted it to appear more "stock" looking along with a few other suggestions.IIRC he did have the VC rail raised a bit more to give enough room to run roller rockers under a stock one.So it went back to the drawing board to have new molds made etc.that took sometime aswell as a few other road blocks along the way. I am patiently waiting with the rest of the folks for the heads to come and feel there will be a market for them how big who knows? There was a head out there for the new jeeps made by Patriot a while back that Clifford was also selling.We have talked to most of the major head companies at both SEMA & PRI and were told either it would be X amount to either do something like that or they didn't feel there was a market for them.Also if Edelbrock got inquiries to six cylinder stuff they were sending them AzCoupes way anyway.
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby russk » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:55 pm

Guys:

I was recently over on Classic Inlines web site to investigate the individual port EFI they have at the prototype stage for the "small" Ford six. While there, I checked to see if Mike had posted an update on the 240/300ci aluminum head project under the normal update section attached to the aluminum head tags. There was nothing new there. However, while looking under the "Research R&D" tag and then below that under the "Coming Soon" tag, I found a more recent 240/300 head update about mid page titled "Update 3-2011". If you haven't see it, you might take a look as it outlines where things stand as of some time in March, what the next steps are (an iterative process until the results are right), real world testing by a few lucky forum participants, and a best case production delivery start towards the end of August.

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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby russk » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:04 pm

PS:

When I find myself thinking that our inline six market place is too small for folks to invest the time and money it takes to develop an aftermarket aluminum head and bring it to market, I run across things like Edelbrock apparently looking at an aluminum Buick nailhead and at least two players working on prototypes for an aluminum head for the Y-block Fords and Mercs! Maybe there's hope for us yet ...

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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby jem44357 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:41 am

russk,

Thanks for the info.

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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby Buddy Rawls » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:06 am

russk wrote:PS:

When I find myself thinking that our inline six market place is too small for folks to invest the time and money it takes to develop an aftermarket aluminum head and bring it to market, I run across things like Edelbrock apparently looking at an aluminum Buick nailhead and at least two players working on prototypes for an aluminum head for the Y-block Fords and Mercs! Maybe there's hope for us yet ...

Russ


I dont know about that. I would say the performance hotrod market with all the resto rods naustalgia drags that are the current rage definitely puts the demand for Y-block and nail head buicks in a whole different league than 240/300 head. Look at all the flathead V8 and chevy W motor coming out. I just finished a camshaft for a stomping little 348W stroker (~425cid).

The 80's and 90's idea was to put a modern motors in these old cars. Now more and more and more the original motors are being hopped up. The rat rod bunch and conventional hot rodding market is to blame, or thank.

I dont see a 300 head fitting into this category, or being a viable product in the mainstream. It would have to come from the specialty market, and would likely be a very race oriented and flow capable piece with no interfaces to accomodate the standard 240/300 components.
It doesn't run quick at the track, but it gets long stares wherever it goes.
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby Nashtooth » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:32 am

Professor Rawls is the last person I should disagree with but here goes: a modern head is the big missing link in my otherwise stage 2 workrod. I would think the 20 mpg bar might be crossed with proper tuning/gearing/camming, no?
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby Nashtooth » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:34 am

Oh and I saw and heard a rat rod running a 292 chub the other day.
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:56 pm

Nashtooth wrote:Professor Rawls is the last person I should disagree with but here goes: a modern head is the big missing link in my otherwise stage 2 workrod. I would think the 20 mpg bar might be crossed with proper tuning/gearing/camming, no?

If fuel economy is your goal then the cast iron EFI head is the best choice. A high flowing aluminum head is the wrong direction for max fuel economy.
I tend to agree with Buddy on this and also for the retionale behind the more popular retro motors being considered by the aftermarket.
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby Buddy Rawls » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:40 pm

Nashtooth wrote:Professor Rawls is the last person I should disagree with but here goes: a modern head is the big missing link in my otherwise stage 2 workrod. I would think the 20 mpg bar might be crossed with proper tuning/gearing/camming, no?


I have virtually no experience on these motors. But on the small block ford and strokers, there are engine builds consistently getting over 20mpg. These are with restrictive stock heads or nice flowing aftermarket stuff. Some of these have been very strong running cars (high 11's) yet absolute calm drivers.

The prize winning port velocities matched to the valve events, along with proper peripheral components matched up with the intended usage and rpm will win everytime. Some of these are achieving 25+ on the highway. Some with carbs, dare I say. I had to drag that out because I despise EFI.

the 300 is no different. Its a 4 stroke motor. the geometrical dimensions are different, but its response to port velocities and cylinder filling etc etc is the same. They all are the same.

The 300 ford motor has very small heads that have very high port velocities very early in the rpm range. camming the motor to take advantage of the flow, at the right time (rpm), then gearing the vehicle and driving desires to that end will acheive 20mpg, if not a fair amount more.
It doesn't run quick at the track, but it gets long stares wherever it goes.
Never in a million years did I think I would have an antique hot rod truck, much less with its own name emblazoned on the front fender and a freakin' six cylinder for power;
but it is a Ford, it is old, and it is definitely one of the funnest vehicles I have driven.
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby woodbutcher » Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:12 pm

:beer: Now while I agree with FTF`s reply a couple of posts earlier,how many people would buy the aliminum head just for the BLING factor or bragging rights for something unique?
Good luck.Have fun.
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby Fordman75 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:06 pm

All I know is there sure are a lot of people on this inline 6 forum trying to give Mike a reason NOT to build the heads! :nono:

If he makes them I'm going to do my best to come up with enough cash to get one! :thumbup:
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby 68coupe200 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:15 am

If the aluminum head is out in the next few months, I just might buy one for a graduation present for myself. I think that'd be great way to wrap up two years of tedious college work. Even if I don't do it then, I'm still going to pick one up later on down the road just for bragging rights! 8)
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby Ferris Bueller » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:04 am

I wouldn't have the money to buy one. The most I would ever consider doing to any of my 300s is a new exhaust, ceramic coated headers, different cam and maybe porting work. But there are a LOT of things I have to get to before I would do that. I did over 10 years ago put a 2 piece long tube header on an 83 F150 I had. The tube metal was thin and it got VERY hot under the hood and the floor of the truck got really hot. Running with only 3' of exhaust and no muffler might have had a part in that.
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby bubba22349 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:56 am

The tube metal was thin and it got VERY hot under the hood and the floor of the truck got really hot. Running with only 3' of exhaust and no muffler might have had a part in that.


Header wrap is low cost :hmmm:
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby Buddy Rawls » Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:17 am

Fordman75 wrote:All I know is there sure are a lot of people on this inline 6 forum trying to give Mike a reason NOT to build the heads! :nono:

If he makes them I'm going to do my best to come up with enough cash to get one! :thumbup:


Developing an aluminum head for 240/300 six head CANNOT be a money making proposition. It would be a labor of love, for himself and for a limited specialty market. Those are the facts.

What is not a fact is that there is an obvious market for an aluminum head for the 240/300 six because Edelbrock makes them for the Y block, Buick Nailheads, Flatheads, and W motors.

If a statement like this makes or breaks the undertaking of an aluminum head for the 240/300, then I can pretty much say with little doubt they are/were setting themselves up for failure.

This is a labor of love, not a market sweeping concept that will sell like hotcakes. The way these things work is there is a small population of the specialty market that will jump out on the purchase hopefully make it a recoupable cost, possibly even a profit. Then it is essentially onesies-twosies from there on.

Comparing the demand to the edelbrock offerings, which on the surface seems a fair comparison, just isn't. The surge of marketing and usage of those vintage engines in the hotrod, showrod, naustalgia racing, perf resto, etc is not in the same ball park.

To make it work, the usage of the 240/300 six would have to undergo a complete make over with huge market impact which is likely not going to happen. The reason those new alumimum heads are out for those vintage motors is because of their performance and popularity in the auto performance industry, not because they were wonderful workhorse motors that had a 30 year run.

I am not saying its not worthwhile (heck, I would certainly be looking at one IF they utilized the common interfaces, which is really ludricous considering the existing design of the head). The conceptual level and intended market of such a head has to be realistic. It can only fall under the labor of love and limited specialty market category, and not much beyond.
Last edited by Buddy Rawls on Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
It doesn't run quick at the track, but it gets long stares wherever it goes.
Never in a million years did I think I would have an antique hot rod truck, much less with its own name emblazoned on the front fender and a freakin' six cylinder for power;
but it is a Ford, it is old, and it is definitely one of the funnest vehicles I have driven.
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby StrangeRanger » Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:33 pm

Thinking about this a little bit:
The design problem for the 300 head is fundamentally different from the design problem for the Falcon head. On the OEM Falcon head there was no separate intake manifold so the port locations on the CI aftermarket head were more or less free. They merely had to match the ports on CI's proprietary intake. That meant that raising and straightening the ports was a piece of cake and that the intakes and exhausts could be separated by a greater than stock amount. This in turn would allow a greater degree of porting and would also reduce the heat passed from exhaust to intake

On the 300 head the ports are pre-defined by the factory locations. Since the intake and exhaust share mounting studs both ports would have to be raised the exact same amount in order to work with existing Cliffy, Offy and Ford EFI intakes as well as headers or Ford EFI exhausts but it would necessarily limit the performance gains by limiting port separation. As I said above there's just not that much room left over to do stuff with a U port head
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby Nashtooth » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:49 am

Well that's problematic to say the least. Now that I've seen the canted valve oz crossflow factory head and drooled. Is the canted valve now passe' for street/off road use?
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby worken2much » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:06 pm

FWIW my "vote" would be for a cross flow design with shaft mount rockers. Freedom of design for intake & exhaust to maximize flow through head.

my 2 cents
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:59 pm

X2

Image

Note that my intake for the production U-flow head will bolt up with a simple 1/2" adapter plate. The exhaust stub ports are unused, but they do garner lots of weird looks.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby bubba22349 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:06 pm

:cool: :thumbup:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My fleet of Sixes: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby StrangeRanger » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:05 pm

:shock: :cry: :shock: :cry: I want one too :lol:
1996 F-150 (tow missile)
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby Emerald 74 4X4 » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:10 am

It has always been that if you want to get power from our sixes, you have to make it with fabrication, engineering and experimentation because the aftermarket support is not there. We all know this and do this in varying degrees. We stick with the U-flow because that's all we have. If a U-flow was STILL the only head you could get for the six, like StrangeRanger said, you might gain a little over a well ported stock head, but you'll never get past the fact that it functions as a U-flow head.

A cross flow head, designed with ease of adaptation in mind, like FTF's above, would be more beneficial to the majority of the six enthusiasts that want more power, more efficiency, more functionality, and whatever else comes with have a crossflow design.

If the aluminum head were a crossflow, I am sure many people here would learn how to make it work and experiment and share ideas on adaptations. We would all benefit from it more than a U-flow.

Owning a six requires a little extra work (or a lot of extra work). We know this and thats why we do it. A crossflow head would just add to the fun!
1974 Ford F-250, Turbocharged and Intercooled 300, Megasquirt Fuel Injection and Ignition control, EDIS, 7.8:1 compression, Harland Sharp roller rockers, Crane 284/272 cam, mild port/polish carb head - 194/1.60 valves, EFI manifolds into turbo - 3.5 inch to muffler - dual 3 inch out the back.
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby Fordman75 » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:50 am

I really doubt Mike would start from scratch a third time to make it a crossflow head.

I know why he stuck with the U-flow head. But if a person is already spending $1000-$2000 on a head, I don't see a few hundred more for intakes and headers being a huge problem. The people buying the heads aren't going to be someone that just wanted a little more pep out of their stock truck. I personally would like to of seen one based off one of the aftermarket 351C heads! :D

But either way if Mike gets a head into production I'm going to try and come up with the cash for one! :thumbup: No matter what the design is, it'll be a heck of a lot better then what we've got now!
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Re: Aluminum cylinder head

Postby THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:17 am

Fordman75 wrote:I really doubt Mike would start from scratch a third time to make it a crossflow head.

No matter what the design is, it'll be a heck of a lot better then what we've got now!


Amen to that. The Chevy and GMC aftermarket heads were mostly of the U-Flow design and they greatly improved that engine's performance (although NO WAY is the production GM head as good as our production U-flow head - thank our lucky stars for that).
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