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Finally done, with dyno results 
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Post Finally done, with dyno results
THanks to all that chipped in their knowledge to help me get my family ahierloom back on the road and running strong. Pics will follow but right now everyone will have to wait for my pooring spelled words.

She is a 66 F250 with the original 240 and three on the tree. 4.56 gears. Started a body off restoration 2.5 years ago. The frame and back sides of all the panels are coaed with POR15. The body is original Holly green but now has black two toned into it. Interior is as unrestored as possible.

Now for th part all you want to hear about. The 240 was bored 30 over.
Hyper-cast pistons,
Stock rods/crank turned 10 under.
9.25:1 comp
Bigger valves, 1.94/1.60 inch
Mild home porting
Offy C intake
Edel 500 cfm carb
Comp cam 224/230 duration at .050, .485/.485 lift. 110 LSA, 106 intake centerline
Results: 173hp, 211ft-lbs. Don't remember the rpm and I left the graphs at a friends house. I'll scan it in on monday and post it. As a reference a 2011 Raptor made 312hp on the same Mustang dyno. Those bad boys make rated at 411 net stock.


Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:49 pm
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
Good going! Nice touch to post the graphs too when you have them.

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Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:56 am
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
:beer: :nod: :thumbup:

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My fleet of Sixes: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.


Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:04 am
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
:thumbup: :thumbup: Awesome!

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Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:06 am
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
Here is a few pics. The old girl parked outside my grandfathers old farm house in from of one of the out buildings. One of the engine, in the truck. And of coarse the dyno sheet.

Dyno sheet.
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x39 ... osheet.jpg

Truck
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x39 ... mhouse.jpg

engine
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x39 ... engine.jpg

As you can see in the dyno graph these engines F'n rock for smooth power delivery. Flat torque "curve" from 2800 on up to 4400 rpm. And this thing doesnt have a small cam by 240 standards. There is some wicked valve float at 5300 rpm so I had to cut the runs a little early. Which sucks because I'm not 100% sure if the engine peaks at 4500ish or if the springs are causing it to run out of steam a little early. ONly one way to find out but I'm not too motivate to do a springg change or shim the existing springs. Timing was set a 14 initial and 34 total. For the few AFB (edelbrock) fans out there it has 89/98 jets with 65/52 rods installed. If it does truely peak at 4500 then I'd guess it was the head being the limiting factor. And a slightly smaller cam would likey make about the same power but it would have even more juice down low. making it quicker overall. But of coarse it would sound as cool at idle :twisted:

For sure she runs good. A friend has a 79 w/ 400M, a mild cam, intake, headers. it only has 3.55 gears but with a 160 cube advantage he couldn't pull away if we were both in 3rd gear (note he has a 4spd and I have a 3spd). For sure any stock pushrod era Ford V8 truck would not stand a chance.


Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:25 pm
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
Very nice :hmmm: Am a big fan of that body style and miss a 65 F350 I use to have it was a real workhorse. :beer:

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My fleet of Sixes: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.


Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:17 pm
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
tiresmoke, Your 240 build up sounds very similar to our 240 powered Anglia, except we use a Crower cam and spring kit. My son has methodically thrashed this at the strip and I can tell you it does not run out of steam at 5300, in fact it runs quickest when taken above 5500. One time he missed a shift and hit Neutral and burried the 6-grand tach without damage and the engine did not miss a beat. I would look into better springs. Good luck.

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Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:34 pm
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
If you orient the Carb so the Primarys face the Valve cover it will run better , that cam should go to 5500 easy , still nice start

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Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:13 pm
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
Thanks. Now I am going to drive myself nuts if I don't fix my valve springs. I know it would run much stronger without the floating. Even if it did peak at 5. Just being able to overev past the peak to keep the engine on boil in the next gear would help make it much faster. Well I guess new springs, damper springs, or at least shims will be needed for a quick weekend winter project. If not earlier. That and a trip to a dyo jet would inflate the power numbers nicely. :nod:

Sidways mount carb. I was wondering about that. Not that I think it would run better. I just know the throttle cable would be in less of a bind and the choke cable would actually reach. I never actually checked to see if it would go on sideways. Is this comon on an inline engine? Does the "lateral" loading of the fuel on quick take off affect the carbs performance? By lateral I mean the carb would see it as sidways fuel slosh compaired to a convensional set up.


Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:28 pm
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
Ive Posted this before ( carb Orientation ) and it usually gets ignored , here goes ,( this applies to 2 brls and 4 brls Its a matter of part throttle flow , at wide open it dosen't matter , BUT , you don't drive that way, unless its a Race only combo , the throttle plates are situated in a way that they direct the fuel air mixture towards the rear , and as the secondarys open they direct to the front , on a V-8 Manifold that orientation works great , on an Inline ( that is STREET DRIVIN ) it will favor the rear cylinders and lean the front , if its mounted with the primarys facing the valve cover it will end up with a much better balanced mixture , NOW , you might say , my 1 brl was not that way , and that's true , but when all 6 cylinders pull from one source the directional effect is minimized , I realize you may think it should be would be tough to make up linkage , All you need is a bellcrank that pivots off the rear two bolts on the carb ( 2 or 4brl ) a example would be the original linkage on a Dual Quad 427 Ford , lots of examples / pics on line , in the end its your combo and money , just trying to help .

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Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:06 pm
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
I'd guess from your discription that putting the pimaries away from the vavle cover would cause the center cylinders to get fed to well. It would be much easier to mount it that way. Its a nice theoretical thing. If I only had a dyno it could be put to the test. One could cruise around at partial throttle and check their plugs. If they all look good then I think no worries.

Well I've searched out the vavle springs I should have bought if my machinest would not have talked me into the instant gratification of lettin him buy them. Before i bite the bullet on buying vavle springs I'd like to know how I can be 100% sure it is vavle float. I will post this question as a new thread. Hopefully I will not be rehashing something that has been beat to death in the past already.


Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:40 pm
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
Oh By the Way , Its Not a Test , nor Theory its Fact, NOTHING , Ive posted on this forum is an Idea , its Something Ive Done , Not rehashed Magazine speech , its been there done that , so , if you choose to ignore as most on here have that's fine , My Posts on this will end here.

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Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:00 pm
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
tiresmoke410 wrote:
... Before i bite the bullet on buying vavle springs I'd like to know how I can be 100% sure it is vavle float. I will post this question as a new thread. Hopefully I will not be rehashing something that has been beat to death in the past already.


Generally speaking closed valve seat pressures are like this:

Typical Ford stock hydraulic cam : 85-90 lbs
Typical factory HiPo cams: 110 - 120 lbs
Aftermarket Hydraulic cams: 110 - 140 lbs
Aftermarket roller cam .600 - 680 lift: 180-200 lbs

The Ford Mustang GT cam had about 110 lbs seat pressure and would easily rev to 6000.

I would check your spring pressures. Maybe one or more has gone soft.

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Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:21 pm
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
I sure would hope none have gone soft. They are all new springs. But I don't know what the springs are. I took my machinist word for it when he said he'd source the ones similar to comp cams.

Well, right now I'm planning to pull off the valve cover and check to see if the springs have dampers in them. And check installed hight and go from there. And of coarse call my machinist and see if he actually has the part numbers or specs for the springs. Ods are I'll just pick up the compcam springs and install them so I'm sure the cam matches the springs. Springs are cheap enough and its a quick after work repair. The most expensive thing is paying for a run on the dyno to see what the new power curve would look like.


Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:40 am
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
what is the diameter of your header tubes? What sort of exhaust system? dual or single and what is approximate average diameter.

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It doesn't run quick at the track, but it gets long stares wherever it goes.
Never in a million years did I think I would have an antique hot rod truck, much less with its own name emblazoned on the front fender and a freakin' six cylinder for power;
but it is a Ford, it is old, and it is definitely one of the funnest vehicles I have driven.


Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:06 am
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
Pulled the valve cover. The springs are very spindly looking and they do not have damper springs in them. I just ordered a set of springs from comp cams that are suposed to be used with that cam. If this problem is valve float it should be all better once the UPS man show up. Needless to say I will be anxiously awaiting.

Also if the springs are found to be the culprit I will for sure head to the dyno again to see how the curve was effected. I'll be sure to post results.

Header is a headman. 1.5 inch primaries, 2.5" collectors. The exhaust is 2.5" duals with hooker aero chamber mufflers. Sounds bad ass by the way. Very throughty idle. Everyone thinks its a big block v8. Its loud at wot and a bit raspy by v8 standards but it sounds good. Different from the ordinary truck. At highway speeds it not really any louder than the wind noise. Very tolerable noise levels while cruising.


Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:06 pm
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
Like mine, with 6>2 Clifford/flowmaster clones. Nasty at tiimes, such as WOT


Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:20 pm
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
And I must say once upon a time I drove a 67 Econoline with a 240 and a 3 speed that would leave anything but a hot bike at the stop light.


Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:30 pm
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
The headers are probably close to optimum for your application. You didn';t say if they were "shorties" or not but either way it would be hard to improve on long tube 1 1/2 primaries w/ 2.5 pipes, unless you added merge collectors, and then the improvement would be small.

Before installing the new springs check the pressure at the installed height. If your machine shop cannot do this (and shame on them if they can't) you can do it fairly easily and accurately enough with a bathroom scale, a drill press or hydraulic press, and a ruler. From your description of the springs in there now I wouldn't rule them out yet. Good luck.

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Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:47 am
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
Assuming your intake flow capability is in the neighborhood of 175 to 190 cfm (a logical assumption based on your description of the work) at 28" H2O, the camshaft's exhaust events may be a tad too early (LSA a little bit wide). I used your existing intake lobe and position as the baseline, and let the exh events do what it needed to (based on your exhaust system measurments, and assuming a low-mid E/I around 78%). If possible, retarding the cam a little to a 108-110 intake centerline may actually bring more cylinder pressure onboard, picking up bottom end and midrange, and ofcourse a little top end as well with the later intake closing.

The point is, retarding and advancing cams is not always a straight forward application. retarding does not always rock the powerband counterclockwise, adding upper end but taking away low end. Likewise advancing does not always boost low end and take from the high end. It all plays into the motor's needs. The assumption only applies when the valve events are optimized, then the changes work as typically associated with adv and retarding.

In general, I showed the lobe separation needed to be around 108, installed at 107-108 intake centerline. this means the exhaust centerline would come in around 108-109 depending on the exact installation. Your intake CL is fine, but your exhaust centerline is 'early' at 114. By retarding the cam you can end up around with the exh centerline in the 110-112 region. even though the intake will retard too, it shows to possibly be a better total match-up. This will allow a tad more cylinder pressure, without any overlap penalty (intake contamination) on the closing side. the 9.25 should still be plenty too.

If you have an adjustable timing set, AND you are into the front end of the motor one weekend, you might try it out. I am simply throwing that out there as an observation. I am not implying anything is wrong, but that a quick analysis shows a little bit might be left in it. Otherwise keep it where it is and enjoy it till the cows come home, there is nothing lost in that whatsoever.

I loved the post, and pics of the truck. I reverse engineered the set-up and ended up with power and peaks pretty close in the rpms, and with an assumed 15% driveline loss came very close to the chassis dyno results you saw. I also speculate the motor has a little more rpm in it, based on what my valve event calcs show. Valve springs may need to be verified and possibly replaced. With the push in studs, you cant go too high though. 240lbs or so may be about the limit. plus, you cam is broken in already, even better. So you can go on up on the seat load a tad (~100-110lbs or so)

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It doesn't run quick at the track, but it gets long stares wherever it goes.
Never in a million years did I think I would have an antique hot rod truck, much less with its own name emblazoned on the front fender and a freakin' six cylinder for power;
but it is a Ford, it is old, and it is definitely one of the funnest vehicles I have driven.


Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:37 am
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
Wow BuddyR that is one heck of an observation. I'll keep that all in mind. Though I'm sure I'll never get into that sort of stuff. Maybe if I owned my own dyno.

That is a good idea about the bathroom scale. I was thinking of using a load cell at work along witha vise and calipers. I measured the installed hight. It is at 1.7. Wich i what the new springs are suposed to be at. Not sure about the curent ones. The fact that the current ones do not have damper springs in them is what scares me. Correct seat pressure our no. The ones recomended for that cam by the cam manufacurer are cheap enough its silly not to just put them in and be done with it. Well I hope done with it.

Thanks for the input on the exhaust FTF. They are long tubes. 6 into 2. I'm pretty sure they are the same ones that cliffords sells. Except through summit they are 180 bucks instead of nearly 500.


Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:39 pm
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
Great news. The new springs fixed the problem. She revs right on through 5500 rpm as clean as clorox. Spins right on up to 6000. The new springs definitly did the trick. I knew I should have listened to my gut feeling of only running the comp springs from the get go. Oh well. Hind sight is always 20/20. At least it should be. Power feels better at 5k but I think that may still be about where she peaks. The differnce is now I have good useable overev so I can keep the engine in the sweat spot when grabbing the next gear.

HOpefully with in the next week or two I'll be back to a dyno to see how improved the curves look and if the peaks shifted to the right any. Pretty sure the old girl will have to go to the drag strip once just for giggles. Well I'll be sure to post the new graphs once I have them. By the way I went with comp's 942 springs on all 12 valves. I shimmed them a little so seat force shoud be 225 lbs. The spring has k factor of 339 lbs/inch if memory serves.


Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:44 pm
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
WOW!!! That is an absolutely gorgeous 66 Ford. Very clean looking. I love the black/green two tone with the black wheels. The 66 grill is my favorite of all the 60's Ford trucks. Very nicely detailed engine & compartment. Thanks for sharing it with us.

Darrell

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Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:27 pm
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
Well with no more valve float and more so due to the generosity that a dynojet gives the new power numbers are 215hp/240ft-lbs. I'm a little sceptical but if the dyno is accurate as of dynoget standards that would but the engine at a solid 240-250 at the crank. Which is awsome.

The torque numbers are up 14% from the mustang dyno and those occur low enough in the revs taht there is no chance of valve float playing a part in that increase. That purely dyno to dyno differences. The power numbers are up by 23%. So it would seem the floating valves were choking her a bit. THe peak now occurrs from 4800-5600 rpm. That 600rpm range has a nice platu before the power starts to tapper off above 5700ish rpm. It still makes good power at 6000. Well worth reving it all the way out before shifting that old WIDE ratio 3 spd and dropping way down the rpm range.

Peak numbers aside i"m very happy with how the curve looks and how the truck feels. Torque curve is still very flat and the peak power is not peaky. Its stays strong as it goes past the peak into the over-rev area. The shop's printer was not working so I'll have to wait for monday when they will email me the raw data. I'll figure out how to put it into a picture format and then post the new results then.

Some time next week if weather cooperates I'll go to the most accurate dyno I know of. Its about 1320 feet long. Hopefully their will be some newer (70s) trucks there with big old v8s I can try to beat up on. :beer:


Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:58 pm
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
That sounds great! Good luck at the drags - keep us informed.

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Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:24 am
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Post Re: Finally done, with dyno results
:thumbup: :thumbup: Awesome Numbers and it's amazing that spings would be the only thing holding it back... Good luck at the drag!

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65mustang-SOLD-200ci-t5-scarebird disks-vintage air ac-264/274 110 cam-mav 8inch 3.8 open-350cfm-CI headers

75 bronco-BUCK- 2.5 SL- 2 BL- 5.0-C4- d44 w/disk & tru track- bb9”rear w/detroit- family cage- wagon top- 33”tires

Bronco goal = frame off clean up- new wiring- gas/brake lines- steel fender flares- interior w/ 'modern' comfort- when eng dies nice stock ford EFI i6 300ci with AC+PS.


Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:37 pm
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