Marine Engine Recommendations For 300 CI Ford Straight Six

The Big Block of inline Ford sixes

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Postby LIZARDKING » Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:38 pm

Tom I can offer some advice. Get a HD engine out of a big truck (UPS, Delivery van, ect)

The 2 things that are going to hurt you are the requirement to run a backfire flame arrester and the exhaust.

On the flame arrester get one as big as you can get, the smaller ones really choke down the intake. Whatever you do, please dont skip this important piece of safety equipment.

On the exhaust I would get a low restriction muffler and put lagging on it to quite it down. A 1-2 inch blanket should be enough to keep the noise down.

If noise is still an issue you can insolate the engine compartment since the engine is raw water cooled.
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HD ENgine

Postby tbarr » Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:52 pm

Lizzy:

thanks for the tips. Yes, I know the imprtance of a flame arrestor.

How do I identify a HD Block? I did not realize that there was such a thing. I thought they were all the same.

Tom Barr

tb1@hamptons.com
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Postby SuperMag » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:40 pm

A few things come immediately to mind...

(1) Exhaust manifold. I don't know of anyone who makes one.

(2) Have you checked to see if the Velvet Drive will bolt to the 300 w/o a custom plate? ($$$)

(3) Reliability. Sustained operation at 3500 RPM under full load @ 250 HP is going to be real hard on what is essentially a light truck motor. Why not a diesel?

If light weight and affordability are the primary concerns, I'd recommend a Small Block Marine Chevy (5.7L). Or possibly a 454 or 502 if it's going to see a lot hours. With these motors, CG approved marine grade components will be more common, and less expensive.
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Postby THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:41 pm

Whoa, Whoa, WHOOOAAA.

To make 250 HP at 2500 RPM you will have to be producing 525 lb-ft of torque. At 3500 RPM you'll need 375 lb-ft torque. Ain't gonna happen Admiral. Not on regular gas.

I visited the Lobstering Museum / Nursery at Acadia, Maine, this summer. I must say that some of the homespun ingunity put in some of these workhorse boats intrigued me, although most of the hull designs traded off a large amount of hydrodynamic efficiency for utilitarian purposes.

I dont know where you came up with the 250 HP figure you say you need - but I'll assume that is in fact what you need to push your hull through the water at 16 knots.

You are up against a formidable challenge to get that. So let me address your other requirements of reliability and durability first. I'll answer your questions in the order given. Just my opinions, mind you...


1 - Any year 300 will run well on regular gas. It will be more octane tolerant if you polish the combustion chambers.

2- Use a Ford Autolite 2150 two barrel carb with 1.08 cast in the side of the body. (that 1.08 is venturi size). Will a Offy or Clifford intake work with that marine water cooled exhaust manifold? If so use it. By the way, Who makes a marine water cooled intake for the 300? I've never seen one

3 - A good three angle valve job and mild clean up of the valve bowl area is all that is needed. Don't port or match manifold / head.

4 - Use stock water pump and alternator. I would stick with the older vee belts, not the newer poly-v serpentine set up that is moer complex. Carry a spare belt.

5 - You are right to stress long engine life; I just dont think it can be done on a 535 lb-ft torque engine.

6 - Use a later model ford mini starter. Disassemble the solenoid, clean and lubricate it, and reassemble the starter using RTV to waterproof all the seams and electrical connections, and anti seize on the fasteners. Use an RV cam with near stock timing specs but more lift, like Crower.

7 - Use stainless exhaust pipe and hardware. The stock cam specs and compression ratio will keep it quiet.

8 - That 2150 will do that.

9 - Yep, that too.

10- Avoid the '64/'65 block - it has a smaller main thrust bearing. Use a non EFI head, however consider fabricating an intake for the 2V from an EFI lower intake if the Offy / Clifford wont fit. Water heated carb spacer. Brass core plugs.

Go ahead - use as big an exhaust stack as you like - it wont hurt and it will command respect with that "tugboat" sound.

1 - see 10 above. I prefer to build my own, to insure the best match of available parts.

2 - cleanup bore with hypereutectic pistons, melling iron oil pump, RV cam. Clean up mill block deck and head. If all the rotating pieces come from the same engine the factory balance job is OK.

3/4 - Keep the stock compression ratio - 8.4 - 8.9 area. Non EFI head.

5 - Except for the RV cam, everything else can stay stock. Use new lifters.

6 - Dont let anyone talk you into a 4V. Use carb heat - those cold, wet conditions are prime carb icing conditions.

7 - Duraspark advance with centrifugal and vacuum advance. Carry a spare ignition module and use di-electric grease to assemble all electrical connections.

8 - The bigger the better as long as you are locked into that water-cooled exhaust.

9 - see 4 above

10 - Fel pro head gasket - all others it is hard to beat Frod OEM. Use silicone on all cork type, such as valve cover and side cover.

11 - KISS method

Good luck with your project. The 300 should be well suited to this application. An engine assembled as above should get you 170 reliable HP at 3500 RPM, maybe 200 at 4500.
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Postby Guest » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:33 pm

Is there any particular reason not to go with another engine? As FTF says, you're asking a whole lot of torque out of a mere 300cid. Sure we keep the torque down to where you can use it, but asking for almost 2ft-lbs/cid is pushing it IMHO. Perhaps a change in tranny and going to a turbodiesel?


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Postby LIZARDKING » Thu Dec 12, 2002 11:25 pm

I dont see a problem with continuous rpm of 2500 to 3500. Can you rig an oil cooler?

As far as the speed, what kind of hull do you have? Planing, displacement, semi-displacement? The displacement of the boat is not that big a factor as is how much underwater resistance your pushing.

The usual rule of thumb is when you double the speed you increase fuel consumption by 4 times.

How many gph do you estimate 16 knots to be?
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Marine Spec Questions

Postby tbarr » Fri Dec 13, 2002 10:42 am

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Postby THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Dec 13, 2002 7:00 pm

Neat. Are you going to race in the lobster boat races? I'd like to see that exhaust manifold - does Osco have a web site or can you post a pic?
Good luck.

By the way the boat they had at the lobster museum had a Pinto OHC 2.3L 4 cyl engine in it.
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Postby SuperMag » Fri Dec 13, 2002 7:18 pm

FTF,

Ford 6's aren't listed; I suspect it's a "call for price" situation... http://cobemarine.com/s-cart/category.phtml?CatID=1

and... http://www.marineparts.com/partspages/Osco/osco.htm

Hey Evan, help us out here!
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Exhaust Manifold

Postby tbarr » Fri Dec 13, 2002 8:10 pm

Gentlemen:

From: T. Barr

No racing, all I want to do is proceed at a lesiurely pace and not sink or tear the bottom out of the thing.

As to the water-cooled exhaust maniforl: A confession. The boat is in Maine. I have never seen it in person, only by e-mail pictures and regular photos (many, many, many of each). I did, of course, have it surveyed by an expert wooden boat surveyor before I plunked down the cash.

I was told that the engine had been a 300 Ford, that it had eaten itself for lunch and had been removed and junked, but that all manifolds and other accessories, including the BW tranny, had been saved. As far as I know, the exhaust manifold is watercooled, like all marine exhausts, but I have not yet seen it. Also, as far as I know, the intake manifold is regular ford, nothing special for the marine application, again like all marine intake manifolds.

The plan is to have the beast hauled down to Long Island soon, and for me to spend the winter installing a new engine. The hull and superstructure are in excellent condition, all having been repaired and refastened (properly) three years ago. Running gear is also only 3 years old. All of this as reported by the surveyor. So, I am not nervous that I won't first meet this animal in person until it pulls up in my front yard on the back of a tractor trailer.

Keep the cards and letters comming! Thanks for the interest and input.

T. Barr
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Postby Guest » Fri Dec 13, 2002 9:41 pm

Uh, I seen a post on the Orphan Inline forum(before the server went south) a person was talkin of building a 258 AMC and everybody said 300 hp was not out of reach. Am I missing somthing here?? the 300 has a 42 C.I.D. advantage & a whole lot better engine design; why is 250 HP out of reach?? Ford & Chebby V8 engines of similar displacement do it from the factory(around 200 to 250 hp.) In my opinion a properly preped 300 should do what you want it to. Take FTF's advice & stick with a Autolite 2bbl & you will be better off! Good luck!!!
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Postby Guest » Fri Dec 13, 2002 9:54 pm

HP is about torque and RPM. A 300 should make more torque than a 258, so the 258 would have to spin higher rpm's. In this particular case, the RPM's are limited (mostly because spinning at 4000+ rpm constantly is bad mojo for such a long stroke engine(never mind the valvetrain)).

As I work for a marine warehouse, I feel somewhat obligated to pimp my companies website (www.kelloggmarine.com). But other than that it sounds like FTF has the right idea. Keep the cam small to keep all the torque and HP in the used RPM range and pretty much build for reliability.


-=Whittey=-
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Postby Guest » Fri Dec 13, 2002 10:14 pm

The new Chebby inline six Displacement 256 / 4195,Bore & stroke 3.66 x 4.01, Horsepower 270@ 6000, Torque 275@ 3600,Compression ratio 10.1:1
The 300 stroke is similar,so how did they get it up to 6 grand??? Maybe 250 HP is not as far out of reach as it seems eh??? & this thing is supposed to whip V8 hands down!!!
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Postby StrangeRanger » Sat Dec 14, 2002 12:20 am

The new C***y 6 is an OHC beast that breathes a whole lot more freely than the 300. It needs a ton of integrated electronics to make the kind of power that it does. There is no way it could do it with a carb or with the limitations presented by a marine environment. The beauty of the stock 300 is that it makes all of it's power at very low revs. If you don't need revs, there is no reason to use them. Without revs, you're not going to make big HP numbers.
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Postby LIZARDKING » Sat Dec 14, 2002 12:36 am

The dynamics of how a boat moves through the water are somewhat complicated. One of two things must happen. 1) The boat must skim on top of the water. 2) The boat must move water out of the way, then go into the hole it made. Both require lots of hp. Since the lobster boat has a displacement hull forward he will not be able to achieve enough hp with the 300 to push the bow up on top of the water in a plane. So he must push the water out of the way then drive into the hole. The difference between 200 and 250hp is minute in this application. 1 knot = about 1.1 mph. A statute mile is 5280 ft and a nautical mile is 6076 ft. At 10 knots in calm water the boat will travel 1 nm every 6 minutes. At 14 knots it will travel 1.4 nm every 6 minutes. To increase speed by 40% it will require fuel consumption to more than double. For some reason marine gasoline (no road taxes) runs about 1.75-2.00$ a gallon.

Lets say that the boat burns 10 gph at 10 knots and 20 gph at 14 knots.

For a round trip of 25 miles at 10 knots it will take 2.5 hours and burn 25 gallons @ 2$/gal it will cost 50$

The same trip at 14 knots will take 1 hour 47 minutes and burn 35.71 gallons @ 2$/gal it will cost 71.43$

A savings of 43 minutes cost 21.43$

Even though you ran 43 minutes less, you pumped 10.71 more gallons of fuel through the engine, this also increases maintenance costs.

I think 10-12 knots for that type of boat with a 300 is an obtainable goal. I dont think any more speed is possible without a huge increase in spending to get it.

I hope you keep us posted on your progress.

Ive been thinking of a 20-ft-ish day boat with a 2.3 or 200 for a hobby on an inland lake someday.
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Postby SuperMag » Sat Dec 14, 2002 12:39 am

bigsix wrote:Maybe 250 HP is not as far out of reach as it seems eh??? & this thing is supposed to whip V8 hands down!!!


Oh, there’s no question… the HP that Tom would like to see in this boat is easily attainable by the 300. But this is a marine application, and the difference is this:

Our truck motors can spin 4000 RPM for quite a while if we build ‘em right, but the load imposed on the motor is an intermittent one; we’re running at partial throttle, vacuum is relatively high, and the motor only sees full load on steep hills and full throttle acceleration.

In a marine application the load is constant. The amount of work that is required to push a hull through the water is incredible, especially as in this case since the hull is not on plane. To wring 250 HP from this motor and apply it to the water would be like running your motor on the dyno at full load for its whole life. You’d cook it off in less than 200 hours; I’d be surprised if it lasted more than 100. On the water at the peak power RPM your throttles are WFO, and if your prop is sized right, you won’t be able to spin the motor any faster.

In other words, if I took that new Chevy 6, bolted it in a trawler, and ran it at 6000 RPM all day, it would be slag by sundown. What FTF proposes is sound power plant design. As much as we love these motors, they do have their limitations. “She canna take much more, Cap’n.”

Incidentally, I sent Tom an email and told him that all this free advice wasn’t really free, that we wanted pics. Tom replied and sent me pictures of the boat (I had to convert formats), but I don’t have anywhere to post them. Can anyone help ? Looks like a super project!
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Postby Guest » Sat Dec 14, 2002 1:42 am

Sounds like a cool use for a 300.

Are the industrial 300's built any different than a truck engine? They are used on chipper shredders, generators and large water pumps to run at a set RPM for hours, so are any special provisions made and would that be beneficial in this application?
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Postby SuperMag » Sat Dec 14, 2002 1:52 am

Most of these engines are unencumbered by smog controls; the heads are sought after because of their lack of AIR injector bosses. Beyond that, I couldn't say. You'd have to check the specific engine's casting numbers for the presence of HD packages, etc...
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Postby Guest » Sat Dec 14, 2002 4:02 am

Years ago I worked as a mechanic at u-haul. They had alot of trucks with these 300 sixes in them. We used to set the governors on them at 4000 rpm. They'd run all day and night for 100,000 miles with a load before a rebuild.
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Postby Guest » Sat Dec 14, 2002 8:59 am

Maybe you could go with the 240; I heard they are capable of more RPM's than the 300 due to the short stroke, but you would lose 60 cubes & a good deal of tourqe.
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Postby tbarr » Sat Dec 14, 2002 12:36 pm

Once again, thanks to everyone for their help and insights.

As to what it takes, HP wise, to move these boats, a story:

About 8 years ago, my son, who at the time was 8, and I took a trip to maine. While there, we got a ride in what at the time was the "world's fastest lobster boat", as measured by a radar gun at the the races. Boat was a standard production fiberglass, 32 footer, 10 foot beam named the 'Capt'n Jack' built by the Crooked River Boatworks in Maine. Power was a 370 HP Yanmar diesel, which were just comming on the market and were the engines of choice for racers. Yanmars are "Twisters", that is they redline at 3600, whereas diesels like John Deers, Cummins, Cats are "Torquers", redlining at 2500 or so. The old Capt'n was built for speed in that, while it fished during the week and raced on the weekend, it was designed so that on race day, everything that had to do with work came out easily and all that was left was the basic hull and engine. The hull was built so thin that, when the light hit the sides just right, from the inside of the boat up foreward, you could actually see through the hull to the the water on the outside of the boat Unnerving at first, but seemed to be no problem as the boat still exists. In addition, the engine was not mounted foreward as is the norm, but aft, right over the center of boyancy, which is basically slightly foreward of the physical center of the boat. Hence, no long moment arm caused by the engine being up front to overcome in getting the boat on a plane. As far as the hull design goes, it was a stock semi displacement design of which many were produced by the manufacturer for mostly work purposes, i.e there were no tricks in the hull, stock as a stove bolt. [By the way, all Maine skeg boats, whether wooden or fiberglass, have the same basic underwater shape. It works, and has worked for a hundred years, for purposes of their primary mission of fishing, and no one makes a hull for any other primary purpose. So, if you look at the bottom of one manufacturers skeg boat, you won't see much difference from any other manufacturers hull. Sublte differences, yes, major, no. Therefore, the bottom of my boat is very similar to the Capt'n's]

Anyway, with the owner, me and my son on board, and with all the fishing gear also, that boat did 48mph wide open in calm water. At that speed, with that diesel roaring away, and in a narrow beam, lightweight hull, it was a heck of a ride! Only thing to do was hang on and pray we didn't hit anything submerged. Better than half of the hull was out of the water as we roared along. Felt like a thousand miles an hour.

So, that's what 370 HP can do in a boat , hull shape wise, that is very similar to mine.

What? Do I hear some unbelievers out there? Well, yes, I did ask, and was told engine was stock. I tend to believe this because there are tech checks at the races to keep everyone honest. Than again, we all know how racers are when it comes to admitting they are cheating!

My boat: The gentleman I bought it from, not being a gearhead, but only interested in where the lobsters were, didn't know much about the Ford 6 engine other than it was installed in 1979 (I doubt that it was a new engine), he having bought the boat in 1983. Since engine is gone, no way to tell what it was. However he told me that he guessed his cruise was approx. 10 knots at 2500 rpm or so and at around 3-4 GPH. He didn't much care, since he fished within 7 miles of where the boat was moored. By the way, this boat, like all lobster boats, has a hydraulic hauler run off the engine that is used to, well, haul up lobster pots. Pump runs all the time. Previous owner thought that disconnecting the pump (which I definately don't need) would have beengood for an additional 1-2 MPH cruise.

If I didn't make it clear before, boat has retired and is on Social Security--its only duties now are to run me around on Long Island Sound in style on sunny afternoons. No more heavy lifting!

Finally, many thanks to SuperMag for undertaking to get the pictures posted. I haven't a clue as to how to do it.

Have a good weekend all.

Tom Barr

tb1@hamptons.com






]
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