1:6 rocker vs. 1:6 roller tip

[Anonymous]

FSPP looks like he's offering both the expensive beautiful roller tip 1:6 ratio rocker arm ($415) again that were previously out of stock, AND the regular adjustable 1:6 ratio rocker arm ($275) The million dollar question is... Which is better for the money. The roller tip have less friction, but is it noticable, and worth the added expense. The regular rocker arm has the same ratio and is much less money. Is there any noticable difference between the two other than on paper (theory)? Will one perform better then the other, and does either have a drawback over the other. I'm saving my pennies for my next upgrade and want to make the right decision. As always it comes down to $$$. Thanks for all points of view. :!:

 

[Anlushac11]

8)

Billet roller tip rockers are much more accurate, reduce friction and are stronger. They have a roller bearing fulcrum and have a roller tip, The adjustables still have a slider fulcrum.

Production type rocker arms may be advertised at 1.6 ratio but tey can be a little over or under depending on production quality control.

IIRC on a V8 you can free up about 12-15hp just from the reduction in friction.

 

[Inline6Merc]

The roller rockers are a better buy. They reduce so much friction over stock rockers. They actaully are helping your engine run smoother and last longer. They may be pricey, but they are worth it.

Later,

Curtis

 

[addo]

Great reduction in valve stem wear is one benefit of roller rockers - side loading of the valve is way less, since the rocker isn't trying to bend the valve as it depresses.

A cooler running, quieter motor with less stress on the timing chain.

Yep, I think a good set of rollers are worth having.

 

[wsa111]

The 1.6 roller rocker arms are a quality item. they are definately better than the regular rocker arm design. the 1.6 roller rocker arm is only a roller on the valve stem end of the rocker arm. This still removes the sliding friction placed on the valve stem tip as well as less guide wear.
Both of these designs use the stock ford rocker arm oiling supply.
If you want another .015 lift use the yella-terra full rocker arms which are rollerized at the fulcrum where the 1.6 still has the friction of a bushed rocker fulcrum.
However to use these full roller arms you have to go to the SBF oil through lifter & use the oil through pushrod as supplied with the package from FSPP.
Since you need to change lifters you only need to use this with a new camshaft for proper breakin. Also since you now basically have the oiling system of a SBF or SBC you need all teflon valve guide seals & superior baffles of the pcv valve area otherwise you will suck oil right through the pcv system. this is by far the best performance rocker arm setup but you will have to rethink your build-up. cost wise it is not that much more to go this route.
Here is another avenue you can use. If you want with a new camshaft use the SBF oil through lifter but get a special pushrod which costs about $8.50 a piece & is custom made by claysmith cams, which is a non oil through design is 7.850 in length has a 5/16 ball at the lifter end & a .360 cup at the top end to mate with your 1.6 roller rockers or stock adjustable rockers, with the future thought of going to the 1.65 full rollerized rockers arms. These are your options. Hope this clears up any questions on rocker arms.
A stock 1.5 rocker arm on a given camshaft is .450 lift going to the 1.6 gives you .480, going to the 1.65 gives you .495 lift. Also each design also add a couple degrees of duration to the cam.
When you use these high lift designs with a full teflon seal make sure you have proper clearance between the seal & the bottom of the retainer. I had to have a machine shop remove .060 from the bottom of the retainer for proper seal to retainer clearance at full lift on my engine.William

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks William and all for the info. I don't want to remove the head as the car is running great, so that eliminates the 1:65. The other two (1:6's) are bolt ons just by removing the valve cover if I understand correctly?

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Matt and All:

I hate to disagree with the great info you've gotten here. As a matter of fact there's noting wrong with the info. I'm just not sure you got your questions answered. You asked-

"The million dollar question is... Which is better for the money. The roller tip have less friction, but is it noticable, and worth the added expense."

Roller tipped, high ratio rockers are super cool. Unfortunately once they're installed they get covered and no one know. It's kinda like wetting yourself in your black pants. It gives you a warm feeling inside and no one else notices. The reduced side load and stem wear of the roller tipped rockers is a real benefit with higher ratios and at high rpms. Most log heads are hard pressed to use lifts much past .400". Most aftermarket performance cams come with at least that much lift with the stock 1.5:1 rockers. If you're adding the extra lift to a stock cam the added ratio is worth a small, but noticeable, performance increase. The real answer is do you think they are worth it? What is the need?

"Is there any noticable difference between the two other than on paper (theory)?"

This answer again depends on you and your intended use. If you're going to Bonneville and driving at WOT, high load, for several miles, I'd go with the roller tipped and maybe the full rollers. They will be lighter, stronger, more reliable, place less stress on valve stems and the rocker shaft. If you're just driving around town with an occassional blast to put a smile on your face, you'll never know the difference.

"Will one perform better then the other, and does either have a drawback over the other?"

As for drawbacks, the $$$$ are the biggest. Higher ratio rockers do put added stress to the rocker shaft. The hi-lift stockers add more side thrust to the valve stems than the roller tipped. Especially if you already have a higher than stock lift, performance cam.

Higher than stock rockers and roller alloys have two useful places IMHO- To get a little more bolt-on performance out of an otherwise solid engine, or to get the last ounce of oumpf and reliability out of a dedicated race engine.

For the money of the alloys you could build one balls-to-the-walls street head. Or make a significant down payment on a Argie or Oz head. You decide.

That's just my two cents- for what it's worth!

Adios, David

 

[ski4evr]

I've been pondering the same questions. Thanks for giving both sides of the coin.

ski

 

[Mustangaroo]

How about hard to finds 1.6 rockers, I got a set that are stamped Falcon and were made for high performance. they are adjustable stock looking rockers and are 1.6 ratio cost me $85.00 I got the same lift at 1/4 the cost But the don't look as sharp as Roller Rockers but like you say after you put the valve cover on you can't see them! :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

The 1.6 roller tipped units would be my choice. Bang for the buck, you can't beat them.

 

[Anonymous]

or to get the last ounce of oumpf and reliability out of a dedicated race engine.

Thats why I bought mine!

Later,

Doug

 

[wsa111]

If you are building an engine fresh & don't mind spending the extra $ why not use the best. the extra cost might be $75.00 over the 1.6 roller rocker arms. The 1.65 yella-terra kit comes with pushrods & oil through lifters.
If you have a basic stock engine just use the stock ford adjustable rockers. if you have an engine already built then go with the 1.6 rollers.
Thats why I would love to see dyno tests.
yella-terra markets the 1.65 full roller rocker arms not for their health, therefore their must be a slight performance gain possible from the extra lift & definately from less friction.
Let your walet be your guide.William

 

[Anonymous]

"They will be lighter, stronger, more reliable, place less stress on valve stems and the rocker shaft. If you're just driving around town with an occassional blast to put a smile on your face, you'll never know the difference. "

Last question I think.......
Reading the above posts and the above listed quotes made me wonder; will the stock type 1:6 add enough stress on the valve stems to shorten the life of the valves, guides, etc.. Meaning if I install the stock type rocker will it be a bad move for the longevity of the engine (valve train) or will it not matter, and "I'll never know the difference". Will more damage occur due to the added stress over the roller tipped style. I'm hoping to keep this engine for a while and have 4K on it since complete build. If I can get over 100k without wearing out the valves due to adding the 1:6 stock style, i'll be happy. Thanks for everybodies opinions and advice, it's definitley appreciated.

 

[wsa111]

Matt, if you have a stock cam & stock valve springs just run the regular rockers.
If you have a high performance cam with spring pressure above 90# then at least run the 1.6 roller tip rockers.
Then if you are running valve spring tension over 100# your option is use the 1.65 yell-terra rockers but only if you have a new cam, because you have to run different lifters. Good luck on your project. William

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy back Matt and All:

I forgot to ask, What cam is in your engine? Specifically Lift?

The stock type 1.6:1 rockers will add more wear to the valve guides first and to the valve stems second. The valve guides are designed to be softer than the valve stems for that very reason. Every time the rocker pushes down on the valve tip it moves across the face of the tip. The greater the ratio, the more movement. This factor goes away with roller tipped rockers.

Higher ratio rockers also add stress to the rocker shaft, valves, valve seats & springs. In a new rebuild the wear difference in 100K will be slightly greater. Wear will be more dependent on maintainance and abuse rather than one tenth of a point in rocker ratio.

Even though you said this was the last question, I'd still be curious to know the lift of the cam you are using. If it is a stock OEM replacement cam with lift in the .350" to .375" range, the stress factor will be less than say a performance cam with .420" plus lift with 1.5 rockers. On a stock type cam, going to a 1.6:1 rocker, the lift will only increase about .025" or, roughly the thickness of a matchbook cover.

Adios, David

 

[mugsy]

I put roller-tip rockers on my '68 Pontiac 400. According to my acceller-butt-o-meter there wasn't any difference. Like David said, maybe for an all out street/race motor or if you are headed to Bonneville. So using my $0.02 here, I'd say for a street engine save the money and use the $ for something that you will feel the seat back press on your back.

tanx,
Mugsy

 

[65coupei6]

A cheap way out. (Not the best way and correct me if I am wrong.) May also be to shim the springs. As stated in the previous posts it all depends on the build and use of the car. I think David asked what cam are you using. Which is a good question.

Stock, I would use stock adjustable's or 1.6 roller tip or shim the springs. Mild full roller and Wild Yellow Terra.

 

[Anonymous]

I ordered a 'rebuild kit' from nothern auto, and got what was listed as a stock re-grind. No idea the lift, duration, etc.. (that's because I was scared of building an engine and hadn't found this site yet) The car was put together 100% stock but the rebuild from block up has .030 over pistons decked .030 due to a scratch. .010 on the crank. Then I found you guys and you have all cost me a LOT of MONEY!!! haha. I added the headers, the 32/36 from clifford, dsII w msd6a just recently. new c4 3 speed auto all rebuilt. recently read dave's performance book, and wished I bought it sooner. So here's the deal with the car now. The re-grind stock cam may be stock specs for a 65/66, or as I've found out recently the heel or back of the cam can be cut and the total lift is compromised possibly. The reason I think that,(or may be way off) is I set the timing according to the book (dave and dennis book) Everything else that has been done the car should go pretty good, right?. It goes decent but still bogs pretty bad from a dead stop when punched, so I'm thinking a higher bit of lift might allow the air/fuel to be let in more and burned quicker. Maybe if someone is in good with northern auto parts supplier they might know the specs on a stock re-grind cam. I don't. The car does run great and I really don't want to pull the head to change the cam or lifters, so I was thinking of adding the higher ratio rocker. $275 VS. $415 plus $45 for pushrods..... Still not sure. If the stock type 1:6 is going to damage a really nice running engine then I'll either suck it up and get the rollers or do nothing and leave it the way it is. If the stock 1:6 isn't going do harm the head in any way shape or form, then I'd go that route. Another question..with my application will the roller tips really free up 10-12 h.p. as was previously stated or is that for a well built up race engine? Also any thoughts on why the car bogs a little when punched? Also will either rocker make a noticeable difference in the 'butt-o-meter'. Will a slightly rich mixture on the carb slow the acceleration down. See, I lied about no more questions! Thanks

 

[xctasy]

Another question..with my application will the roller tips really free up 10-12 h.p. as was previously stated or is that for a well built up race engine?

If its apples verses apples, there is no performance increase with roller rockers. 12 rockers wipeing the top of the valve stems verses 12 rockers rolling over them sure as heck isn't 12 hp if all else is equal. What roller rockers do is maintain the same signaifacant performance at the end of a 1000 mile, flat to the boards race.

For durability on the I6, they

1) only factor in at lifts above 450 thou,

2) and at speeds over 5000 rpm,

3) and with unleaded fuels where exhast guide and seats can get a hammering.

4) For most of us, roller rockers are not worth the extra unless you are looking at keeping the engine for ever.

5) The details need to be very carefully gone over to prevent issues with seals, oiling, spring bind, and other isues over pushrod type and length.

6) In another 5 years, you will be glade you got them. By then you will have forgotten the cost, and your engine will still be great up top

7) The valve gear is the weakest part of the American OHV engine, and full roller rockers have been race tested with a full guarentee.

 

[AzCoupe]

This is certainly an interesting topic with a wide view of opinions.

First, it is a proven fact that upgrading from stock 1.5 rockers to 1.6 roller tipped rockers, on a relatively stock motor, will add approximately 2HP (not 10-12) and 2-3lbs of torque across the entire RPM range. This is achieved in two ways, the lifter opens a little higher and a little faster (adds approximately 3 degrees to the valve duration), and by reducing friction.

There is no doubt that these increases in HP and torque can be achieved by other means which cost less, but the primary advantage is the reduced friction and wear on the valve train components.

The biggest reasons for rebuilding a motor (or the cylinder head only) is when oil consumption goes beyond a desirable limit. The two main reasons oil consumption goes up, worn rings and/or valve guides, the later being the the most frequent cause. By dramatically reducing the friction on the valve stem and guides, you increase the longevity of the motor, plain and simple. The extra HP and torque is just a side benefit, and not the primary reason for going with roller tips IMO.

Why install a dual roller chain? Not for gains in HP and torque, rather increased strength and longevity. Are they worth the 30-50% extra in cost? I think most would readily agree, they are.

Yet, there are exceptions to the power gains in extreme cases.

This month, we decided to take the valve covers off for the first time and upgrade our factory stamped-steel, 1.5:1-ratio rockers with a set of 1.6:1 roller-tip versions. This will give us a bit more lift and duration and open our valves a bit faster.

Was it worth it? In our case, definitely. Once the work was done, we headed back to the chassis dyno and found almost 20-more horsepower virtually across the entire rpm range. Even with the small increase in camshaft motions provided by the rockers, the enthusiastic little engine took full advantage of its newfound breathing capabilities.

These outstanding results are not typical, however. Remember, our LT1 is motivated by a Vortech centrifugal supercharger, so our engine is much more sensitive to breathing than most. The supercharger serves as an amplifier, and where relatively small changes can have amplified results, minor problems can have a huge effect, too. Such is life with a blower motor. In our case, the 1.6:1 rocker swap was a great move, since we didn't sacrifice anything (like idle quality or driveability) but gained plenty of power. The car is more responsive and certainly more fun!

So, we were able to see a tremendous improvement in both horsepower and torque with the addition of 1.6:1 rockers over our factory 1.5:1 units. Does this mean you can expect a 20-plus-horsepower improvement by doing the same? We seriously doubt it.