1963 Ford F100 223 6 cyl and 3 speed toploader transmission

[mcbchild]

New to group:

I have a barn find 63 f100 flareside 223 6cyl 3 on the tree toploader. I will be swapping in a sbf. I was just wondering since i have the v8 conversion engine mounts, is there a bell housing made for the ford 6 bolt engine, that will allow me to use the stock 3 speed toploader manual trans? Also, both are running, I just want the v8, also swapping in front power disc brake conversion.

Or do I need to get a different manual trans? If so, will the saginaw 4 speed manual trans work with a ford bell housing?

 

[manglass]

From memory, I think any small block bellhousing that will fit the "narrow" pattern that your 3 speed has will be a 5 bolt engine mount.

A Saginaw for a Chevrolet won't fit without, at least, an adapter and the right clutch disc. (AFAIK)

Since your plan is to install a 6 bolt small block, I think the easiest replacement would be a T-5 out of a Mustang. The shifter placement may, or may not, be a problem but can be resolved with a shifter relocation using a different tail housing.

Lou Manglass

 

[bubba22349]

Yes there was a short period during the 1 1/2 year transition, so you would need to locate late a 1965 or a 1966 Ford 289 V8 6 bolt bell housing (or a 1965 or 1966 Ford F100 240 or 300 Six Bell (B.H.) "Note that one of these will be the best one to use since it has the same side motor mounts as your 1963 Bell dose", the 1965 or 1966 big Ford car 240 Six B. H.) all these 6 bolt Bell Housings used that same narrow transmission bolt pattern as the 1963 223 Six and it's 3.03 3 speed that you have. That would allow you to bolt up your current Transmission and it will also use all stock Ford parts & Clutch assemblies. To me this is about the best as well as the strongest of all Ford 3 speeds ever made and that I have driven over many many years. This narrow Bolt Pattern Trans mounting was what Ford first started using on all its lighter duty Bell Housings way back from 1949 until the end of model year 1966. But X2 on a T5 with a simple adapter plate or if you could happen to find a Borg Warner T85 3 speed with the overdrive (I really like these too) that would also work well if you wanted to keep using your current Column Shifter Linkage. Those two transmissions would also be very good for better fuel economy especially if you need to do very much in the longer distance driving on the freeway. I have also re-drilled and tapped the later Bell housings on occasion to fit on a wide pattern Bell Housing to be able to use a narrow bolt pattern Transmissions and some I re-drilled the transmission to fit the bell housing. Good luck Edited

 

[Frank]

mcbchild- welcome! Bubba has cleared up your question. My two cent's worth- keep the 3.03 and column shift trans. It's a sturdy transmission, 3 on the trees are fun to drive (I drive one daily), and it prevents you cutting up a classic old truck to install a floor shift., and all the pesky mods that come with it. . . Good find! best of luck on the project. Please keep us posted.

 

[mcbchild]

Thank you all for the replies. I also worry about the 3.89 factory gears in back. With the 3speed and a 302, the engine would be spinning fairly high I think around 60mph. Since the motor will be stock flat tappet engine, with an aluminum dual plane intake and a small holley 600 vac sec carb, ,not sure if would work with that combo

 

[Frank]

Thank you all for the replies. I also worry about the 3.89 factory gears in back. With the 3speed and a 302, the engine would be spinning fairly high I think around 60mph. Since the motor will be stock flat tappet engine, with an aluminum dual plane intake and a small holley 600 vac sec carb, ,not sure if would work with that combo

With stock 15" rims and 235/75 R 15 tires a 3.89:1 gear will give the following rpm in 3rd (direct drive):
40 mph-- 1935 rpm
45 mph-- 2175 rpm
50 mph-- 2420 rpm
55 mph-- 2660 rpm
60 mph-- 2900 rpm
A well tuned, good condition 302 would be quite content with these speeds, and very responsive and peppy. With a .8:1 OD which is what the 5 speed has, rpm in OD would be:
40 mph-- 1550 rpm
45 mph-- 1740 rpm
50 mph-- 1935 rpm
55 mph-- 2125 rpm
60 mph-- 2325 rpm
Your final-drive ratio with 3.89 gears and a .8 OD is 3.11:1
Another solution to prevent the modifications of a 5 speed would be to use taller tires. It doesn't take much to bring the rpm down and keep the 3 speed. These numbers are based on stock 29" tires.

 

[mcbchild]

With stock 15" rims and 235/75 R 15 tires a 3.89:1 gear will give the following rpm in 3rd (direct drive):
40 mph-- 1935 rpm
45 mph-- 2175 rpm
50 mph-- 2420 rpm
55 mph-- 2660 rpm
60 mph-- 2900 rpm
A well tuned, good condition 302 would be quite content with these speeds, and very responsive and peppy. With a .8:1 OD which is what the 5 speed has, rpm in OD would be:
40 mph-- 1550 rpm
45 mph-- 1740 rpm
50 mph-- 1935 rpm
55 mph-- 2125 rpm
60 mph-- 2325 rpm
Your final-drive ratio with 3.89 gears and a .8 OD is 3.11:1
Another solution to prevent the modifications of a 5 speed would be to use taller tires. It doesn't take much to bring the rpm down and keep the 3 speed. These numbers are based on stock 29" tires.

Thank you for that information. Definitely going with the T-5 transmission. Also, know one has ever confirmed a bell housing for the old narrow bolt style 3 speed toploader transmission that would allow it to fit on to the new style 6 bolt engine.

 

[Frank]

Thank you for that information. Definitely going with the T-5 transmission. Also, know one has ever confirmed a bell housing for the old narrow bolt style 3 speed toploader transmission that would allow it to fit on to the new style 6 bolt engine.

It makes sense mcbchild, I get it. I would rather have 5 speed and OD in my '79 F100 with the 3-on-tree. I have the opposite problem- too tall a rear gear. Going to a lower gear like you have is needed, but I'm not wanting to cut the floor out of a very good condition factory-stock truck to add the needed OD.
The clincher is the bellhousing issue. In your situation, I would do the same thing.
Please keep us posted on the project.

 

[Bill56]

Since you have a 9" rear, swapping to a 3.50 or so should be easy enough.
Or look for a T85N.
It would be happy with the 3.89.

 

[mcbchild]

'I was actually considering keeping the 3 speed on the tree, but cannot locate a bellhousing for the narrow trans mount and 6 bolts pattern for a sbf motor from an 80s mustang. Almost like it does not exists. I know others have stated to look for big six like the 240/300 from 65-66 as it has the 6 bolt pattern and would take the narrow mount 3 speed 3.03 toploader trans, but cannot locate such a bellhousing. . Shown below is the actual BH from the original 223 6l engine. Notice the narrow transmission mounting pattern, narrow.

 

[bubba22349]

'I was actually considering keeping the 3 speed on the tree, but cannot locate a bellhousing for the narrow trans mount and 6 bolts pattern for a sbf motor from an 80s mustang. Almost like it does not exists. I know others have stated to look for big six like the 240/300 from 65-66 as it has the 6 bolt pattern and would take the narrow mount 3 speed 3.03 toploader trans, but cannot locate such a bellhousing. . Shown below is the actual BH from the original 223 6l engine. Notice the narrow transmission mounting pattern, narrow.

Well yes the old style Narrow Bolt Trans Pattern Bell Housings for sure never existed in any of the 1980's Mustangs or for that matter any of the 1967 up Mustangs or any of the many other 1967 up Ford & Mercury Model's which by that time all would have used the wider Trans mounting.

The last narrow Bolt Bell Housing made were in some of the 1966 year models. In the case of finding a SBF V8's its only a narrow window of the first 289 6 bolt Bell Housings that were made after August 3, 1964) - these had 6 bolts holding bellhousing to block for use on the rest of the 1965 year models using a 289 V8 and probably into the first half of the 1966 year model transition up until all the supplies of the narrow mount transmissions were used up. The change was made for all the 1967 year models using a 289 V8 as well as all six's and other engine families to the wider transmission mounting. See below first two pictures for the 1961 to August 3, 1964 SBF V8 Bell Housing all of witch had the narrow Trans Mounting Pattern (they were the early 5 Bolt bells). Last two Pictures is of a late 1966 240 / 300 F100 Ford 6 Bolt Bell Housing. This was also a transitional Bell of sorts because it still has the Undrilled and Tapped Bosses for the Narrow Transmission Mounting Pattern if you look closely at the last picture of the back side you can see the top bosses are still cast there in place, it would be easy enough to place your trans on that bell and mark the holes so that you could drill and tap those bosses and then you could use your 3.03 trans on it. That Bell is for sale right now on eBay here is the listing. https://www.ebay.com/itm/154813419484?hash=item240b994fdc:g:cC8AAOSw4mFh8b6w&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAAsF38pALxj35KP8IvoJYKs5gLiUpmKT0kuqjH2dAI1YsfsAzsUubfXQNwEoypGDxBIqIZtvakP1s6e5GV8NwzZzCMszqftp57LXBfZxvsI6cyxLfNktpCM3EGcfwj796p2pT99IwUBSsXpdAMMOb19C84ld4tv/6hVsitQjc/7HrmZ8CcmX79IxOZJyWWIsrWoQ5SsM00t0Mp6hwbfHxENduuLMw6PLSgbCn9DXqXGk4N|tkp:Bk9SR4b3_vDhYA

I have done these type Mods many times over the years when I couldn't find the right part since it was so much harder to find. Also if you can Weld Aluminum or have a friend that can, than you could also use those later 1967 up wide bolt Pattern SBF V8 Bell Housings that seem to be everywhere. They could be welded up on the back side to make thick enough Boss for you to then drill and tap the same way to get your narrow bolt Pattern Trans mounting. Best of luck

 

[mcbchild]

Well yes the old style Narrow Bolt Trans Pattern Bell Housings for sure never existed in any of the 1980's Mustangs or for that matter any of the 1967 up Mustangs or any of the many other 1967 up Ford & Mercury Model's which by that time all would have used the wider Trans mounting.

The last narrow Bolt Bell Housing made were in some of the 1966 year models. In the case of finding a SBF V8's its only a narrow window of the first 289 6 bolt Bell Housings that were made after August 3, 1964) - these had 6 bolts holding bellhousing to block for use on the rest of the 1965 year models using a 289 V8 and probably into the first half of the 1966 year model transition up until all the supplies of the narrow mount transmissions were used up. The change was made for all the 1967 year models using a 289 V8 as well as all six's and other engine families to the wider transmission mounting. See below first two pictures for the 1961 to August 3, 1964 SBF V8 Bell Housing all of witch had the narrow Trans Mounting Pattern (they were the early 5 Bolt bells). Last two Pictures is of a late 1966 240 / 300 F100 Ford 6 Bolt Bell Housing. This was also a transitional Bell of sorts because it still has the Undrilled and Tapped Bosses for the Narrow Transmission Mounting Pattern if you look closely at the last picture of the back side you can see the top bosses are still cast there in place, it would be easy enough to place your trans on that bell and mark the holes so that you could drill and tap those bosses and then you could use your 3.03 trans on it. That Bell is for sale right now on eBay here is the listing. https://www.ebay.com/itm/154813419484?hash=item240b994fdc:g:cC8AAOSw4mFh8b6w&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAAsF38pALxj35KP8IvoJYKs5gLiUpmKT0kuqjH2dAI1YsfsAzsUubfXQNwEoypGDxBIqIZtvakP1s6e5GV8NwzZzCMszqftp57LXBfZxvsI6cyxLfNktpCM3EGcfwj796p2pT99IwUBSsXpdAMMOb19C84ld4tv/6hVsitQjc/7HrmZ8CcmX79IxOZJyWWIsrWoQ5SsM00t0Mp6hwbfHxENduuLMw6PLSgbCn9DXqXGk4N|tkp:Bk9SR4b3_vDhYA

I have done these type Mods many times over the years when I couldn't find the right part since it was so much harder to find. Also if you can Weld Aluminum or have a friend that can, than you could also use those later 1967 up wide bolt Pattern SBF V8 Bell Housings that seem to be everywhere. They could be welded up on the back side to make thick enough Boss for you to then drill and tap the same way to get your narrow bolt Pattern Trans mounting. Best of luck

Well, just purchased a bell housing from eBay from a 65 289 hi-po that has the narrow bolt pattern drilled and tapped. Hopefully the existing clutch setup will work and like I need to locate a 164 teeth flywheel for that bell housing. Will update with more info after I receive the bell housing and find a flywheel.

 

[mcbchild]

Also, with the Bellhousing that was purchased, have to change the pivot mount from 68 and newer, to the older version.

 

[David Castle]

The top loader 3.03 had a different 1st gear ratio when used in a V-8 or 6 cyl. My top loader has a 2.59 ratio and was originally behind a 292. But the 6 cyl version should have something closer to 2.78. My combo is a bit stiff for an i6 but yours should have plenty of bang off the start- a bit closer to a granny gear for an 8 cyl. The ratio might feel a bit far apart going to second. The other ratios are the same.

 

[mcbchild]

UPDATE: Well so far I have the flywheel, bell housing and will be ordering the 65 and up clutch fork. As the stock setup now uses the pivot ball that the clutch fork connects to in the current bell housing. Also just about ready to install the sbf motor shown below to replace the stock 223 6cyl and will be keeping the stock 3 speed transmission and column shifter for now. Also, just about completed the interior and just waiting on the headliner.

 

[mcbchild]

Now of course another snag has appeared for this v8 , 3 speed conversion. The original 303 transmission is a short shaft and has no mounting pad for a bolt in transmission crossmember. Anyone able to use sometype of transmission conversion mount to allow bolting the old 303 toploader short shaft 3 speed transmission to a crossmember outside of using the original bellhousing which is not an option on the sbf.

 

[Bill56]

Looks like your options will be to either fab 'ears' for the bell housing or a mount bracket from the tail shaft housing bolts.
You may be able to use a little later crossmember. I'm guessing 65 or later.
For the trouble you will go to, it might be a good time to get a T5 and be done with it.

 

[mcbchild]

Bill56, may have to figure out if a bracket from the tail shaft housing exists or if one needs to be fabricated. I just wanted to keep the 3 on the tree until I am able to find a T5 at a normal price and not this 1k or more fad right now. And, it hopefully will keep me form cutting a hole in the floor at this time.

 

[mcbchild]

UPDATE on V-8 Conversion:

Just got back to working on the truck for v8 swap and use the original 3 speed manual transmission.
So far custom items needed to be fabricated are the clutch Z-bar ball mount for the engine block, place motor 1 1/2 inches over to the passengers side so that the drive shaft is inline between the trans output shaft and the rear end pinion yoke.

Headers were a pain as it was a trial and error type deal, but ended up going with the stainless steel shorty headers as they have to be the right length and angle for the header collector. The driver's side exhaust has to go under the original transmission crossmember and over the new bolt in transmission crossmember.

The original 3 speed 3.03 toploader manual transmission does not have a tailshaft mount, so I made made one using a mounting plate out of 1/8 steel plate that had to be cut to mount where the tailshaft housing bolts to the transmission and weld in a horizonal plate to that plate for a transmission mount to the new crossmember. Also had to re-bend or just make new transmission linkage that goes from the column shifter to the transmission so I didn't have to cut any holes in the floor. Also, will need to have a pilot bushing made because a regular ford 302 pilot bearing does not go deep enough into the crankshaft due to the truck 3.03 transmission had a longer input shaft and will leave a gap about 1/2 inch between the trans and the bellhousing. Bellhousing needs to be from a 65 and up 260-289-302-351w 6 bolt pattern and had to drill and tap the bosses in the bellhousing for the narrow bolt pattern transmission.

Driveshaft had to be extended 2 inches because I could not set the motor too far back due to the clutch z-bar has to line up correctly.

Converted front drum brakes to power disc brakes and added all new brake lines.

Removed old voltage regulator and put in GM Delco alternator with built in solenoid and fabricate a mounting bracket for the alternator.

Also removed old starter solenoid in in place of a mini-hi torque starter with attached started solenoid on top of the starter.

I tried to stay all Ford parts, but the Alternator had to be a GM or 1 wire alternator with built in regulator and the front brake rotors in the kit are also from a Chevy van if I remember correctly.

Hope this helps others that are trying to do a similar setup for their 1961-64 Ford F100 truck.