1989 F150, 4.9 Fuel system and Ignition do over.

63 Sprint

Well-known member
I was given a 1989 F150 With 69,000 miles from an older couple. When they ran it was taken care of very well. The husband wound up with Alzheimer’s about 7 years ago and about six years ago the truck was parked and was not started up since.
both tanks were full of gas and when I removed the gas cap the odor was so strong I realized the gas was bad. Both gas filler spouts were rusted and when I started to drain the tanks the gas was dark brown with lots of rust, sludge and scale. I put a scope down the tanks and I never saw such a mess. The bed was taken off and both tanks were removed and a new rear tank with a complete fuel pump assembly was installed. The mid tank was deleted and the dual tank reservoir was changed over to a single tank reservoir. The fuel system was flushed before hooking up to the fuel rack and than when everything was good it was than hooked up and cycled. The pressure was good. Well I started up the engine and it ran horrible. Pulled the codes.
the parts in question were EGR valve, map sensor, throttle position sensor, O2 sensor and coolant temp sensor.

Tested:

O2 sensor. (Bad) replaced
map sensor. Seemed ok but replaced anyways.
throttle position sensor. (Bad) replaced
coolant temp sensor. (Bad) replaced
EGR valve not closing (Bad) replaced

Ran the truck the truck ran very rough. Replaced spark plugs, cap and rotor. Started still ran rough. Found that the wire harness near the ECU plug was eaten, urined on, mouse dung all over it. What a mess!!! So I cut soldered and heat shrinked new wire in damaged spots.
Well I started it up and and it still ran rough. Cleared all the codes and finally got a code 11. I thought I had it licked. Well I started it up and it ran rough for 15 miles and it started settling down. Then I noticed a cylinder was not firing properly at times. So pulled the injectors and what a mess!!! 4 were leaking. Had them rebuilt and installed them. Fuel rail was ultrasonic cleaned and tested. Took it out for another run and ran rough for another 15 miles then started running better. Well it turned out the ECU is bad also. It’s not storing data in memory once the engine is shut off. I also noticed that thermatic tube is corroded and has holes in it. Now this is Stainless Steel!!! The EGR tube is cracked at the exhaust manifold. And the air pump is bad.

Well, I’m tired. I made the decision that keeping the Trucks ignition system and multi port fuel injection system is going to be a money pit. And parts are getting harder to find. So I removed the intake manifold, thermatic tube, air pump, fuel rack and injectors EGR system.

i will be installing either a Carberator or throttle body Holley Sniper System and I would like to here from members about their experiences with these systems. The engine will stay stock. The truck has 3.08 gears with the mazda 5speed. It will tow light loads. 3000lbs tops. The truck will be ran in city and highway.

I’m looking at an Offenhauser or Clifford 4barrel manifold. If going Carberator will the Offenhauser DP be a better option? Which carb, Holley 390 or Edelbrock 500 CFM AVS2? Question, will the Edelbrock 500 CFM AVS2 be too large for my needs. I worked on Holley and carter carbs so I understand how to set them up. I want to get as much feedback before the purchase. I’m sort of leaning towards Edelbrock but, I want to hear from others and make a decision based on as much info I can come up with.

I’ve been reading up on the Sniper systems from Holley. Thinking of the 2300 system or the 1100 system. The 1100 would most likely use the one barrel intake. But will it be enough? The 2300 system will use either the Offenhauser or the Clifford open plenum manifolds. One advantage to the 2300 is it has two injectors. If one malfunctions or gets plugged it should still be able to get me home.

The ignition system will most likely be a DUI.

The exhaust will stay with the EFI manifolds. The cat will stay on and an EGR System will be fitted. It’s there and no reason to touch it. Edelbrock makes an EGR plate for 2300 2 barrel and 4 barrel that will fit the 500 CFM AVS2.

i normally would not invest this much in an old truck but this truck is tight, no rust, no accidents and interior is very clean. If done right it should last for years and be very reliable.

Henry
 

sdiesel

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pmuller9":2j3gvngz said:
I'm keeping this short.
No Offenhauser DP and certainly no DUI.

Use the Clifford or Offenhauser "C" intake manifold with the Holley Sniper EFI 2300.
Let the Sniper control your ignition timing using a locked DS2 distributor for the trigger and have the Sniper trigger an MSD 6A or 6AL.

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1557 ... st18225044


short, sweet and right on the money!!

Furthermore, if you are in Oregon, I will from u, purchase all efi components, can money legal tender
 

BigBlue94

Famous Member
Supporter 2019
pmuller9":2oexunn7 said:
I'm keeping this short.
No Offenhauser DP and certainly no DUI.

Use the Clifford or Offenhauser "C" intake manifold with the Holley Sniper EFI 2300.
Let the Sniper control your ignition timing using a locked DS2 distributor for the trigger and have the Sniper trigger an MSD 6A or 6AL.

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1557 ... st18225044

AbandonedBronco is running the 2300 sniper 2bbl on a open plane intake with a locked DUI. It ran really well when i rode in it. Really smooth power transfer. Much better than my carbed engine with similar stats.

He had some issue with the timing weights in the DUI. His success with the sniper and premature wear with the DUI has me regretting using the DUI and a carb. But thats 800 bucks spent so im running it for the time being.
 

63 Sprint

Well-known member
pmuller9":3rstj8gv said:
I'm keeping this short.
No Offenhauser DP and certainly no DUI.

Use the Clifford or Offenhauser "C" intake manifold with the Holley Sniper EFI 2300.
Let the Sniper control your ignition timing using a locked DS2 distributor for the trigger and have the Sniper trigger an MSD 6A or 6AL.

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1557 ... st18225044

pmuller9, thanks for the info. As your aware, I posted here and on ford-trucks. I was not quite sure which place would be best to post about my project.

I thought for quite a while and before I started buying parts to do the conversion I wanted to make sure the engine is in good shape. The engine has good oil pressure when hot, it does not over heat and no noises that is normally heard when parts are worn. The last thing to do is to do a compression test on all cylinders. The trucks been sitting and not ran for the past three weeks.

I just finished and here are the results:
Compression test on 1989 Ford F-150 4.9 EFI, (cold, dry)
#1- 157
#2- 160
#3- 157
#4- 157
#5- 165
#6- 159

It looks like the engine is in good shape to start with the project.
At this moment I’m trying to understand how the Sniper System will control the Dura-Spark ll distributor with a MSD 6AL.
This is new territory for me and I will need help in understanding how everything will work, and how to install and set everything up to make the system work properly.

Been old school for the last 45 years and now it’s time for change. In a way this project is exciting. Another opportunity to learn. I am looking forward getting this project rolling.

Thanks again,

Henry
 

63 Sprint

Well-known member
BigBlue94":3ew0ix45 said:
pmuller9":3ew0ix45 said:
I'm keeping this short.
No Offenhauser DP and certainly no DUI.

Use the Clifford or Offenhauser "C" intake manifold with the Holley Sniper EFI 2300.
Let the Sniper control your ignition timing using a locked DS2 distributor for the trigger and have the Sniper trigger an MSD 6A or 6AL.

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1557 ... st18225044

AbandonedBronco is running the 2300 sniper 2bbl on a open plane intake with a locked DUI. It ran really well when i rode in it. Really smooth power transfer. Much better than my carbed engine with similar stats.

He had some issue with the timing weights in the DUI. His success with the sniper and premature wear with the DUI has me regretting using the DUI and a carb. But thats 800 bucks spent so im running it for the time being.

BigBlue94, Thank you for posting your experience riding in AbandonedBronco vehicle. This is encouraging!

Henry
 

63 Sprint

Well-known member
sdiesel":2rjyrzi8 said:
pmuller9":2rjyrzi8 said:
I'm keeping this short.
No Offenhauser DP and certainly no DUI.

Use the Clifford or Offenhauser "C" intake manifold with the Holley Sniper EFI 2300.
Let the Sniper control your ignition timing using a locked DS2 distributor for the trigger and have the Sniper trigger an MSD 6A or 6AL.

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1557 ... st18225044


short, sweet and right on the money!!

Furthermore, if you are in Oregon, I will from u, purchase all efi components, can money legal tender

sdiesel, your a ways from me. I will certainly have lots of parts taken off.
 

pmuller9

2K+
VIP Member
Supporter 2018
The distributor gets locked out so the mechanical and vacuum advance no longer function.
The Sniper 2300 gets the fixed timing signal from the DS2 distributor through the violet and dark green wires.
The Sniper then controls the timing from the timing map you set up in the Sniper's software.
The Sniper then sends the timing signal to the MSD box through the white wire.

See page 27 for the distributor lock out procedure.
See bottom of page 30 for the MSD wiring.

https://documents.holley.com/199r11321.pdf
 

63 Sprint

Well-known member
Thank you for the info, I’ve been reading all night. Great learning! I have a question, can I use the Ford TFI distributor that is on my engine? I believe it has a locked rotor shaft.

I tried posting a wiring diagram but it would not take.
 

pmuller9

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Supporter 2018
63 Sprint":2682g4c0 said:
Thank you for the info, I’ve been reading all night. Great learning! I have a question, can I use the Ford TFI distributor that is on my engine? I believe it has a locked rotor shaft.

I tried posting a wiring diagram but it would not take.

The Ford TFI distributor has a hall effect sensor that requires power plus it puts out a 12 volt square wave that may not be compatible with the Sniper's trigger input.

The DS2 put's out the compatible magnetic sensor signal plus the DS2 has a large cap which is safer against crossfire in a high energy ignition system like the MSD.
 

xctasy

5K+
VIP Member
63 Sprint":xc7h75bn said:
Thank you for the info, I’ve been reading all night. Great learning! I have a question, can I use the Ford TFI distributor that is on my engine? I believe it has a locked rotor shaft.

viewtopic.php?t=80462

xctasy":xc7h75bn said:
jamyers":xc7h75bn said:
Wait..."TFi is internally fitted with a Hall Effect sensor"
In the distributor? I thought you said it used a crank wheel - now I'm confused.

Back to the original question, what's the simplest way to get a square-wave (Hall Effect) signal for triggering an ignition system?


Grab a TFi distributor, and an weld up the sixth index if its a sequential distributor.

Like Danny Cabral's Administrator Holley site

the eight shutter blades/windows must all be the same width.
Ford TFI has one narrower blade for #1 cylinder identification, so some modification is required.

This is easily resolved by welding a small piece of sheet metal to the one narrower blade, making it the same width as the others.
Or simply trim (cut) the other seven blades to the same width. Ensure you trim (cut) the right side, so all windows are the same.

http://documents.holley.com/techlibr...10555rev17.pdf (Holley EFI Wiring Manual)

All Fords pre OBD2 4.9's were every second cylinder were batched or gang fired. So no Dual Synch Distributor.

Here is how pmuller9 described it.

pmuller9":xc7h75bn said:
xctasy

That's what I was wondering about.
The later Ford 4.9 distributors are solid, no mechanical or vacuum advance.
Just a simple rotor with gates and a Hall Effect sensor.
The signal should be stable (Without Scatter)

[image]https://www.dropbox.com/s/dx36ndsekvoqkuy/PIP%20amature.gif?raw=1[/image]









Again, the https://forums.holley.com/ Holley forum is truly excellent, with reliable support

but IMHO, a little bit retarded on magnetic prox sensors which Ford was using in the Duraspark III distributor cars since 1980 to 1983. (My back ground is VR and Magnetic Proximity sensors from Road engineering and Factory Magnetic tracing in the food industry.)

Since Most TFi's are Dual Synch from Sequential Injection 5.0's, and not the Bank fire trucks, Holley's tech support and admin Don't recommend TFi interfaces with Holley Sniper EFi.

That's not because it won't interface, its because too many Holley EFi users have had problems with them.


Yes, You can use the TFi module, but its a little bit of work, and most conversions are for cars which were originally dual synch TFi, not the alternate bank fire the 4.9 six . 5.0/5.8 and 7.8 truck and Van use.

Danny Cabral is on record


no longer advocate using the Ford TFI or GM small cap HEI distributors, because too many (but not all) Holley EFI users have had problems with them.


The Holley Dual Sync distributor (with two Hall-Effect sensors) is specifically designed and "plug & play" for Holley EFI. But replacement parts are the problem, with many EFi prospects stuck with the wrong kind of OEM replacement TFi distributor that won't produce a reliable signal. That's the rule, rather than the exception.

Danford1's method shows you how to into the Dual Synch distributor.

see https://forums.holley.com/showthread.ph ... nfo-needed


My solution is to use the 5.0 6-1/2 inch iron reluctor wheel and the you can use the stock Duraspark, and control the spark with an early 1980 to 1985 Crank Position sensor with 3 prongs instead of four. The truck and passenger stuff was indexed around a 6-1/2" Crank Position Sensor with four prongs and a C1963 control system found under Duralast SU213.









All the Holley guys who have been trying to invoke brain dead 1 and 2-bbl throttle body EFi have been scratching their heads to understand how the early Hall effect works.













On the 5.0 2-bbl CFi and thr 351M Feedback carb Broncos and F150'S, these used the same trigger method as the TFI ignition systems, and did so for two or three years of the Duraspark III/ EECIII engines. So an external Prox sensor can be added if you ever get into any grief.

I'd try gutting the TFi module like Danford1, and just Have a Go.
 

xctasy

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If your a believer, use a Meat cleaver....

https://forums.holley.com/showthread.ph ... nfo-needed


danford1":2dna3o3y said:
I was reading this old thread about modifying a Ford TFI distributor to work with a Sniper. (Old thread here: https://forums.holley.com/showthread...fi+distributor.) I can modify the shutter wheel no problem. My questions are with setup & wiring. From what I gather, you don't need the TFI module. How do I just wire up the Hall-Effect trigger? What wires go where? I'm doing this so the Sniper EFI can control my timing. Any and all info would be greatly appreciated. Danford1


danford1":2dna3o3y said:
What I did was cut open the module with a fine tooth dremel saw blade. I guessed at how it was put together and was right. I pried off the top and saw the circuit board and 3 contacts with wires from the terminals. The circuit board had a thick layer of goo on it. It was clear, but very soft & gooey, like thick snot.
I removed as much of the schmoo as I could, and cut the wires at the circuit board. I scrapped the wires so I could make good clean solder connections. I then cut the end off the connector, I'll file that smooth and round off the edges to make it look like it was meant to be. Then I cut a relief notch in the bottom for the wires to exit (I didn't take pictures of the wires...) I can re-attach the top lid with black RTV when I'm through and it will look just fine. Here are some pics of the process:























 

pmuller9

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Even if you get the TFI distributor to work with the Sniper you still have a small cap distributor, not something you want to use with the MSD ignition.
The large cap Duraspark distributor gives much better isolation between cap terminals and still it is advised to use low resistance spiral wound plug wires to reduce the electrical tension on the cap.
 

63 Sprint

Well-known member
Makes sense about using the TFI unit. I want the least amount of headaches so I’m dropping the idea of using it. Great learning here, thanks everyone.

I have questions about another distributor. I don’t know much about it so I figured it might be a good time to ask about it. I was reading about a distributor from Progression Ignition. https://progressionignition.com/shop/ol ... istributor Does anyone know anything about them? I would like to hear If anyone has any experience with them. It all sounds good, but I’ve read about other hypes before and it turned out the product fell short on doing what the company claims.
 

pmuller9

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First; It is way to expensive.

Second; The HEI including the DUI are not ideal for the Ford 300 six or any other engine that spends most of it's time operating at low rpm.
At low rpm the dwell time is very long and HEI module spends the majority of it's time in current regulation mode and the coil spends a long time in saturation.
The wasted energy during this period has to be dissipated in the form of heat so both the module and the coil run hot decreasing spark energy and shortening both module and coil life.
At high rpm the dwell time is short enough to keep the module out of current regulation and the coil out of saturation. Life is good again but the 300 six doesn't live at that rpm level.

A Capacitive discharge system like the MSD does not involve charging a coil to saturation so the current to the coil is not restricted and the spark current is many times more than the conventional inductive discharge system.
Capacitive discharge is better suited for low rpm work especially since MSD provides multiple sparks for most of the operation rpm range of the 300 six.
 

63 Sprint

Well-known member
It looks like the best option would be the DS2 with the MSD6AL. Everyone’s feedback is appreciated. It looks like the ignition system components that will be used are worked out.

The next thing that I need to choose on is the intake manifold. Offenhauser C vs Clifford Single Carb Intake Manifold. I know, :roll: This has been talked about for years and I hope I don’t start something here. All I’m trying to find out is in light of everything discussed about these two manifolds that is there new findings on which might possibly work better with the Holley Sniper 2300 two barrel setup.

I’m surprised the possibility of use of Carberator has not been discussed. The reason I’m bringing this up is, I noticed that Edelbrock 500 CFM prices seem quite reasonable and it’s tempting. Had pretty good success with Edelbrock performer setups in the past and I do enjoy setting them up. The Holley 390 carb is not that bad also but much more cost and time is required to set them up right.

Henry
 

pmuller9

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There is a 3rd manifold with long runners specifically for a 2 barrel.
https://www.youronlinespeedshop.com/pro ... old-as0524

The Edelbrock AVS2 500 with annular discharge is a nice carburetor but is on the large side for a stock 300

One of the Autolite 2100/2150 carbs work well with a stock 300 but to tune a carb correctly you need to add an Air/Fuel ratio meter so you don't have to guess.
Then if you drive some distance with significant elevation changes the carb will not adjust.
There have been cases here where the driver made jet changes to get across high territory then changed back on the other side.
 

63 Sprint

Well-known member
Wow! :) one question I would have, is it too long to fit? I would have to get some measurements.

On rejetting, I’ve been there. Worked in Gunnison Colorado back in the 80’s and drove to N.Y. (back home) once a month for a year and a half. That was when I had a Chevy p/u with a 350. I just installed Edelbrock performer manifold and carb setup. Learned how to rejet the carb Pretty quickly. And, now days, there could be times that I should rejet. Thanks for bringing it up,
 

63 Sprint

Well-known member
Just found the dimensions for the 2 barrel manifold. 11.3” from head to widest point on carb pad. Measure the truck tomorrow.
 
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