200 - 170 Head swap, what Next?

[Anonymous]

My 200 head cracked and all I could find is a head from a 170. Perfect fit, but I now get a little lifter clatter under heavy throttle. Could my pushrods be too short? The timing is Dead On, with the proper Dwell, (Electric Ign).

The only modification I had to do was Build a Carb adapter to fit the stock 1980 1V to the 170 intake.

Also, what would you fellas recommend for upgrading Carburation? Big 1V or 2V carb? I want a lil' more punch to it from the hole shot.

I dont want to tear into the block "Yet" to change the Cam, I would like to keep it OEM, for now.

This is our 1980 Farimont wagon. One day i'ld like to make her into a 6 banger sleeper. Any suggestion are Greatly welcomed.

Thanks!

 

[Anlushac11]

8)

Just my humble .02cents...

IIRC adding a 170 head on a late model 200 can give you a healthy compression ratio. Also my memory says the 170 and 200 blocks are same height and bore, different stroke on crank.

Also IIRC wasnt the 170 adjustable rocker arms? maybe they are not tightened to specs. Also dont you need to use different pushrods for adjustable rockers?

Might be pinging. Try backing off the timing, switching temporarily to higher octane gas, or add a bottle of octane boost and see if it goes away.

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Keebler:

Nice sleeper.

What year was the 170 head? If it was prior to '71-'72 it will likely have the smaller combustion chamber of about 52 cc. That clatter under load could be pre-egnition or knock due to excessive compression ratio. What head gasket did you use in reassembly? More important, how thick was it. I'll run some numbers on the calculator when I finish this post. You might want to try a tank of premium gas in the meantime to see if the clatter doesn't go away. There is not an appreciable difference in dimemsions between the 170 and the 200

Other than gaining too much CR, you likely lost HP because of the smaller valves and manifold/port volume of the 170 head.

Only the early non-hydraulic lifter 170s had adjustible rockers and a few with hydraulic lifters til about the '65 model.

Your late model Holley #1946 is a pretty good carb, and about as big as the 170 with a 1.5 carb hole can use. A bigger carb may not get you what you want, "From the hole shot". Usually the 1st thing I'd recommend is more initial advance, but that may not work for you.

What trans are you dealing with? What are your goals for this engine/vehicle?

Adios, David

 

[Anonymous]

The casting number is: C1UE6080-A I was told from a Machine shop that this is an early 60's model Head. about 1963 or so. I used the Original Rocker arm assembly from the 200 head, a Positive stop type Assembly.

The head was milled -.010 to even it up and the valves were ground. just a basic Head job. The machine shop gave me the head gasket. I am assuming that the Gasket was OEM thickness...No details were given to me.

I have been using 91 Octane for 2 weeks now, but no change in the clatter.

As far as the transmission. I bought a filter for a C4 but it did not fit, was later told it is a C3.... Never heard of that one before.

Further investigation found that this car was built with 10" Rear brakes. Only issued in this model for Emergency services, ie. Fire Dept or Police for those years. Not exactly sure if this is true or not.

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I adjusted the timing for our altitude (585 feet) to 6* BTDC, then backed it off by 2* to a total of 8* BTDC. Seems the clatter is still there, just not as bad. Any further out and the Throttle responce goes Bye-bye.

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My goal, eventually, is to have a 6cyl screamer. Something that will outrun my wifes GTP on the hole shot....LOL.. or am I just dreamin'? Should I start over with another complete engine,Or should I Keep the 200 Generation Gap Cross breed?

 

[BIGREDRASA]

8 BTDC is 2 degrees advanced over 6 BTDC. Did you try driving it at 6? Did you reconnect the EGR? The EGR is part of the whole late-model package, and one of its effects is to suppress some of the pinging. Any idea what your compression is? A simple compression check can tell if you're going into dangerous pressures.

 

[Anonymous]

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM W----A----G----O----N. OO6.

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Back Keebler:

The C1DE casting was used in both 170 in '61 to '63, and some of the very earliest 200 engines. The compression differences due to displacement was evened out by using flat- topped pistons on the 170 and dished pistons on the 200. In stock form this head had very small valves and intake tract volume. 1.52" intake, 1.266" exhaust, and 890cc manifold and port volume.

I ran some numbers on the CR calculator- estimating a 52 cc chamber volume, .050" thick head gasket, CR is 8.6:1, which is not inordinately high and should no cause knock. Even with a .010" mill cut CR would not be over 9:1.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you new head may not be causing the clatter, but it certainly restricting performance.

Adios, David

 

[Anonymous]

I ran a compression test last night...

All cyls showed 160+ except for #2 Cyl.
So I took the head off early this mornig and replaced the Original Hydraulic Lifters, (had 167K miles on 'em). That was the only thing I kept from the engine from the earlier swap. I also used a new Head Gasket (.050 Thick).

Success! It seems that the Original Hyd Lifter would not Fully pump up and was causing the clatter. I re-ran a compression test: all cyls showed from 160 - 168#'s (Note: I also set the timing back to 6* BTDC).
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As far as performance, what would you recomend for a Radical 6 banger sleeper? The tranny is supposed to be a C3 Auto. Should I go with a 250-300 CI, or forget it and drop in a 2.3 w/ Turbo?

Im not that familiar with what I can do to a IL-6, but I can build a monster 2.3 4Cyl.
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Any Ideas are Greatly Welcomed!

OBTW... THANK YOU ALL, for all the help and ideas you have given me over my clatter problem!

 

[BIGREDRASA]

So, how does it run now?
Check here for performance options: http://www.fordsix.com/shop.html

 

[Anonymous]

A: No more clatter, but it still seems weak from a dead stop...just as before. Might be that 170 head....

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Q: Has anyone Ever tried to fabricate an intake to accept 1 or 2 Garrett t2 TURBO's to an IL-6?

I have 2 spares from a couple 2.3's (Mustang Cobra's), might make an interesting project.
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Note: Im checking into a complete 300-CI from a 1979 ford Pickup and a 3 speed to convert from Auto to standard shift. Because of it being a Wagon, I am told it should swap with no problems. But that will remain to be seen...I suppose im going to go completely through the car and power train...

I'll keep everyone posted.

Thanks All!

 

[BIGREDRASA]

Now that you got rid of the clatter, try advancing the timing to 8, 10 or even 12 degrees, until it pings taking off in 2nd. When it pings, back one degree.

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Back Keebler:

I love a story with a happy ending. The C1 head will hold you back a bunch.

Be on the lookout for a D8 or later head for larger valves, intake volume, hardened valve seats and a 1.75" carb hole. It will be off a Fairmont or the Mercury clone, or a Granada or Merc clone from '78 or 79 model years. Have a three angle valve job done, with a 4th angle back cut on the intakes. Have it milled .025" to compensate for the thicker composite type aftermarket head gasket and another .035" to get an honest 8.7:1 CR- which will be just about right for your fat Oklahoma air. Fit and install an exhaust port divider.

Look for a Carter RBS off a FoMoCo 250 from '70 to end of engine. It is not as sophisticated a carb as your Holley #1946, but it is not as encumbered with EPA restrictions either. You #1946 is rated at about 180 to 190 cfm while the RBS is rated at 215 cfm. Or you have several 2 barrel choices.

Redo your exhaust system with a 2" diameter and a turbo type muffler. Do you have AC? Do you intend to keep it? If you do that complicates headers a bit.

Your C3 is a close relative of the venerable C4 and you would likely do well to upgrade to a C4 as the C3 is a very light weight and light duty version. Add a shift kit to the C3 and modify a stock converter for a little more stall speed. I wouldn't be surprized of a C4 was a direct replacement for a C3. Check it out and share what you learn.

All of the Fox Mustang suspension brakeing and handling pieces should be a direct bolt-on. What a candy land.

A rear end from a 4 cylinder should have a 3.00:1 or possible a 3.27:1 rear end ratio as opposed to your stock 2.87:1- either would help and likely be a direct bolt-on. A 7.5" will be cheaper than an 8.8" and wither will be strog enough for your rig.

Or, a Turbo 2.3 Wagon would be cool too!

Enjoy the journey.

Adios, David

 

[Junk-Falcon]

what i fou

 

[Anonymous]

You #1946 is rated at about 180 to 190 cfm while the RBS is rated at 215 cfm.

IIRC, the Holley 1946 is rated at 195 cfm.