221 cubic inches from a 200 engine

wsa111

wsa111

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There was a post recently on the forum to use smaller connecting rods with smaller journals & offset grind the 200 crankshaft to get 215-221 " out of the 200 engine.
I have used .040" undersize bearings to achieve a 3.156" stroke with stock rods by offset grinding the crankshaft. You get 205" with a .030" overbore using stock componets.
Dean aka xctasy had suggested some rod & piston combinations to achieve this configuration.
Does anyone know of what rods & pistons available in the USA to achieve the 215-221" goal.
There must be some VW, mitsubishi, honda componets which will clear the close camshaft to rod clearance with these engines.
 
I think one of the possible combos was a BMW piston with a Pinto 1600 rod (Kent) engine, they were also offered in other Fords like a Festa I think. Probably a custom built rod based on a Honda spec's or other import might work too.
 
See viewtopic.php?f=1&t=67266

The crank must be offset ground to 1.90" Holden Red/Blue/Black/xt5/xt6/Toyota 1-x/Starfire 4/Phase 3 specs, 1892 cc /138/149/161/173/179/186/202 cubic inches. 1963-1988.

The crank to use is the seven bearing 3.126 stroke 1m, 2m or 3m Ford 200. The stock big end size is 2.126, and it goes down to 1.900, and if its using the right bearing, you can just about get 226 thou more, or the same stroke as a 2.3 HSC, 3.35".

To get a 1.484:1 rod ratio like the 221 Aussie and Argentine Ford did with its 5.14" rods and 3.46" stroke and its 8.425" deck, you need a 4.975" rod. The Ford Kent 2737E is 4.93" but needs a 2.126" crank pin, the Pinto 2000 is 4.96 but has a needs a 2.05" crank pin, the Toyota 2T or 3T 1588/1770cc are only 4.84", and has a 1.899" crank pin. There is a TRD Formula 3 12t/13t Toyota rod which is longer, but I can't find the line reference. The single cam 1s, 2s and single and twin cam 3s and there ohv valve shadow engines, the 1y, 2y, 3y and 4y are similar, but I have no details.

Lacking that info, the right con rod is the bullet proof 1970-1974 Pinto 4.96" rod with the 0.945" little end. There are aftermarket ones for the Baja set, with 0.912" 2.3 wrist pin/gudgeon/little ends...you can size up to the Chrysler Jeep 4.7's 0.946" piston bore, or fit the Chrysler wrist pin to the Pinto rod.

With a 7.806" deck register, your 4.96" rod fits and clears the cam, and fits a Chrysler 4.7 piston. The piston comes out the top of the block 72 thou, so you need to cut down the 4.7 pistons from its 1.24" to 1.168". The piston will then be a flat top with a the +40 thou over 94 mm bore, giving only 216 cubes. Using oversize decked 3.736" 305/229 Chevy 6" rod 1.26" Forged pistons, or oversize TVR/HSE Rover 4.6 or 95 mm BMW M5 pistons gives you more cubes, but 56 or 60 thou over might be too much for some worried about splitting a bore. Then your right on 220 to 221 cubes. I like that number...

Another option used by power boat racers who aren't allowed to use pop top pistons with postive decks on already decked blocks is to Araldite, Loctite or Superglue a custom bus bar copper or cnc cut steel plate of 70 to 80 thou and then mount your normal gasket conventionally. Finding longer pushrods is then the problem.
 
Just curious about this thread...is the main benefit just to gain an extra 15 to 20 cubic inches? Seems like alot of effort for a small gain unless I don't understand some underlying benefits.
 
Your Right its way too much work , BUT sometimes certain cubic inch sizes fit within a class or lets say you want as much cubes but are limited on size ( external constraints ) if those don't apply then yes its a lot for a little, but hey its only money right
 
Gene Fiore":1hu012om said:
Just curious about this thread...is the main benefit just to gain an extra 15 to 20 cubic inches? Seems like alot of effort for a small gain unless I don't understand some underlying benefits.
Click to expand...

8) the longer stroke gives you more usable low end torque than you would otherwise get. how much depends on what other complimentary modifications you make.
 
Hey, an extra 15-20 cubic inches is another 15-20 HP depending on other factors & yes on low end torque cause the extra inches are mostly stroke.
Another factor is the piston pin offset location, more off set more low end no offset more top end.
The witch hunt is for the correct piston. Cause that determines what rod length one needs.
Any ideas are appreciated. Bill
 
Crower makes 3 grades of 2.0 and 2.3 Pinto rods from the Sportsman up to a Titanium one in 5.0 inch length (and longer) with a .912 .927 and .945 pin size listed in the Esslinger Engineering cat. Doesn't seem like it would be that big a deal to have the big end machined to the 1.90 size when ordering than also add a set of custom forged pistons and should be a workable combo.
 
11% extra capacity is 0.6 seconds on a quarter mile for a 135 hp 200 in a 3000 pound car. 15 extra hp from 21.5 extra cubes is something, especially when 200 I6 engineblocks are cheep as chips.

The 250 is the best, strongest basic combination, but it comes at a disproportionate price...weight. It doesn't fix the 1.5:1 rod ratio either. When the basic bits are sorted, a US 250 will make a proportional power increase, but engine mounts, V8 trans, a diff to suit and the weight increase make it expensive. So the 25% capacity increase comes with the need for a heavier duty diff, a better gearbox, steering won't be as light, and you have to fix the block to piston short fall to get that 25% extra power the capacity could give. Normally, a stock US 250 only gives a 9% power boost over a US 200, because its one of the worlds most badly matched engine, deck wise, and it always adds not just 80 pounds engine weight, but the trans, diff and radiator. But with just a set of 6" rods, its 25% capacity will make 25% more power, less the weight handicap. As the deck height is fixed, the compression is raised,and there is less detonation, better rod ratio etc. Problem is you have to rebuild it to do it, as well as sourcing it and making the ancillaries match. Fitting one to a Fox body and an early pre 62 small tunnel Round body isn't easy, but can limit your annual inspection options.

The stroker 221 comes at a cost of taking your block out to 60 thou, getting your crank offset ground, and some expensive rod, bearing and piston mods. The 1.5:1 rod ratio remains, but your assured to get well over an 11% performance and torque boost without any external evidence because you get compression ratio, valve unshrouding, not much frictional horsepower loss and no weight gain verses a stock 200.

Comparing a 221 stroker to a 200 or 250 is like comparing a 302w to a 289 or 351 Windsor. Its physically similar to the small engine, just streatched almost as much as the block will take. The 250 is like a 351W, it takes all thats good, and amps it up an octave. But just as 351W is a big thumper, and it needs extra heavier gear to support it, so does the 250. In Australia, 302's out number 351's 5 to 1. Its the same with US 200's out numbering US 250's by about that number, so a stroked 200 could be a better economic option, especially if your stuck with engine block year issues, annual smog inspections, or engine bay space or component limits or are a nut for numbers matching originality.
 
I don't understand some underlying benefits

Who said racing made Sense (esp in terms of Cents)?
I'm a sail powered ocean racer, we have a sayin:
"A boat is a hole in the ocean U pour money in."
It's fun (esp when U beat the others) just to B invited.
 
You know that BOAT is just an acronym, right!!! It stands for "Bust Out Another Thousand", which seemingly always happens when something goes wrong with it. LOL.
 
I found a couple of over the counter pistons that could be used in a 200 stroker with Pinto rods without machining the tops, like the Jeep 4.7L would require.

1. Small Block Chevy-334 stroker piston from ICON, IC835-STD, forged aluminum with stepped dish-2 valve reliefs (total 10.0cc), Bore 3.736"/94.894mm, CH 1.133", Pin Dia 0.927". With a 2.0L/4.977 Pinto rod, 3.35 stroke", this would yield a 221cid engine with a 0.023" piston recess, and a 1.486 stroke/rod ratio. If you zero decked the block and installed a 52cc head, it would yield a 9.63-1 CR.

2. Chrysler 3.3L V-6 2000-02 (VIN code G,R) oversize piston from Keith Black, S3230C-1-0mm, flat top, Bore 3.701"/94mm, CH 1.173", Pin Dia. 0.901".
With a 1.6L/4.928 Pinto/Fiesta rod, 3.35" stroke, this would yield a 216cid engine with a 0.032" piston recess, and a 1.471 stroke/rod ratio. If you zero decked the block and installed the same 52cc head, it would yield a 9.46-1 CR.

The major machine work required would be offset grinding the crank for the increased stroke. You could also look into undersized rod bearings (0.020-0.40) instead of the Holden ones to make up the difference. The piston recesses mentioned above would also give you the ability to mill the block, instead of machining the pistons.

The cost would not be that extreme since you would be using stock (Pinto rods) or OTC parts. Of course, just like any engine rebuild, if you go with specially made rods, or exotic pistons (BMW M5 3.8L pistons cost $1000+), then you are talking $$$$.
 
On another post, the old littled BOP er 160 hp GM 3300 piston used in selected LN6, or Code N 1989-1993 Buick Olds and Pontics.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=67792&p=519740#p519740

The item looks to have sloted rather than drilled oil ways in the base, but if they are strong enough to rev to 6000 rpm in a 3.16" stroke little front drive GM letter car, then that piston speed is 5480 rpm on a 3.46" stroker 221.

On a 250, the piston would cope with 4850 rpm easily.

The other good news is that a Fiat Punto con rod is very easy to get ex Europe, and its a downsized 302 length rod at 5.059", with smaller 0.866" BMW/Holden Torana XU1/Datsun 2X0z wrist pin and 1.915" big end bearings. Arrow in England make a very expensive version of it, but its hardcore, its around, and with a cheap 1.31" deck piston with a 0.905" rod hole, the rod could be reamed to suit the piston.

Stroke could be 217.6 cubic inches with 20 thou over 3.72" piston, 3.337 stroke, iron plate with two 27 thou gaskets and 235 thou or iron CNC cut to use the stock piston. Rings would just stop short of the old 7.803" deck, and 235+27+27 would give total support to the piston comming up the bore. Custom pushrods of 150 thou differnt lifters and some differnt pushrods and X-flow head studs would allow everything to fit nice. 40 thou over on GM 3300 piston is 60 thou over, and with a 3.74, were at 220 cubes already. Rod ratio is still down around 1.516:1, but the Fix It Again Tony rod looks great to me
 
On another post, the old littled BOP er 160 hp GM 3300 piston used in selected LG7, or Vin Code N 1989-1993 Buick Olds and Pontics.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=67792&p=519740#p519740

The item looks to have sloted rather than drilled oil ways in the base, but if they are strong enough to rev to 6000 rpm in a 3.16" stroke little front drive GM letter car, then that piston speed is 5480 rpm on a 3.46" stroker 221.

On a 250, the piston would cope with 4850 rpm easily.

The other good news is that a Fiat Punto con rod is very easy to get ex Europe, and its a downsized 302 length rod at 5.059", with smaller 0.866" BMW/Holden Torana XU1/Datsun 2X0z wrist pin and 1.915" big end bearings. Arrow in England make a very expensive version of it, but its hardcore, its around, and with a cheap 1.31" deck piston with a 0.905" rod hole, the rod could be reamed to suit the piston.

Stroke could be 217.6 cubic inches with 20 thou over 3.72" piston, 3.337 stroke, iron plate with two 27 thou gaskets and 235 thou or iron CNC cut to use the stock piston. Rings would just stop short of the old 7.803" deck, and 235+27+27 would give total support to the piston comming up the bore. Custom pushrods of 150 thou differnt lifters and some differnt pushrods and X-flow head studs would allow everything to fit nice. 40 thou over on GM 3300 piston is 60 thou over, and with a 3.74, were at 220 cubes already. Rod ratio is still down around 1.516:1, but the Arrow 166S version of the Fix It Again Tony rod looks great to me

http://www.arrowprecision.co.uk/details.php?id=66766

If you've got devide by 25.4 etched in your brain, this chart can be converted to inches. http://www.arrowprecision.co.uk/rod_stock.php
 
:hmmm: Just thinking some more on this 200 stroker combo. If you were able to find a 221 crank to use and than do the off set grind on crank to increase stroke with the same 1.90 big end rod could we get to about 240 to 245 inches with a 200 block or would we now be to close to the cam. It's a shame we did not get the 221 block here too. Than too you could also bore the cylinders all the way out and than put in some good sleeves and have the block furnace brazed for a bigger bore setup.
 
Cam clearance will be critical. Even with the stock stroke the cam needs clearancing for the rods. You may end up grinding away a much bigger notch to swing a longer arm in a 200 block.
 
Yeah that's why was thinking if you used a custom rod with smaller size IE 1.90 big end. Am sure there would come a point were it just would not clear anymore. Was wondering if they had done anything like that in Oz since they had the 221's.
 
The oz 221's have the camshaft mounted higher in the block to clear the rods.
The timing chain is the same as the later 200/250 XY-XB engines. Not sure how that length relates to the US engines
On my dummy build I have about 5mm cam to rod clearance.
 
Never seen one of them. Do you know were I might find some pictures of the 221 block and parts?
 
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