Adjustment wheel all the way out with new cylinders & shoes

63flcn

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The '63 Falcon Base that I bought had both front wheel cylinders blown out when It got it. You could see the fluid pouring out the bottom when I pressed the pedal (while in the driveway).

I replaced the wheel cylinders and shoes. I noted where the adjustment wheel was on the original set up which was about 25% out.

I reused the adjustment wheel and matched it to where I took it off as a starting point. Wasn't even close, with the new shoes/cylinders and it requires the adjustment to be almost maxed all the way out to be dragging the drums, compared to 25% out with the old stuff. It seems it should be the other way.

What am I missing?

I disassembled and reassembled it and same thing.
 

bubba22349

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Check that the brake drum inside diameter is still in spec. they may have been cut to many times. Good luck (y) :nod:
 

Georgia200

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Yes the drums may have been cut to many times. You also may not have the correct adjusters.

How hard was the drum to get off? They may not have been adjusted properly when you started.

Usually it is very difficult to get the drum off if it has been sitting awhile. In that case, I usually end up destroying the shoes because they are fused to the drum.
 

63flcn

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You also may not have the correct adjusters.

Possible, the ones that came in the kit were clearly the wrong ones. The "star" wheel was twice the size and did not allow the lower spring to sit in place. Which is why I used the old one.

How hard was the drum to get off? They may not have been adjusted properly when you started.

Normal amount of resistance based on drum brake jobs I've done on other vehicles.

The old shoes I pulled off had a good amount of pad left and the adjustment wheel seemed to be in the normal position. Not the case with the new cylinders and shoes.

Stumped.
 

bubba22349

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:hmmm: Can you post some pictures of both the new and old parts so we can compare the differances of them? :nod: (y)
 

B RON CO

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Hi, did you compare the old shoes to the new ones? I've seen many times a regular shoe installed where a bigger heavy duty shoe should have been. I know, probably not applicable to a base Falcon. I am not really up on small Ford cars of the early 60s but wasn't there a rear end change around that time? Maybe the new parts are for a different rear. Good luck
 

bubba22349

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The 1963 Falcons were a transitional year model so there is more parts combinations then in the 1962 down Falcon / Comet models. Focusing only on the stock Ford front brake combos there were two the 9 inch and the 10 inch drum brakes. All of the 1960 to 1963 standard base 144 or 170 Six cylinder cars (plus 200 six'es through up to 1970 Mavericks) were equipped the 2 1/4 wide X 9 inch diameter Drums and shoes, these were used with a 1 1/16 inch wheel cylinders. The 10 inch drums were only used on the V8 cars that came out with the 1963 1/2 models they use a larger 1 1/8 inch wheel cylinder.

There are also two hardware kits that were made one for each size drum, stock these both were the self adjusting type. There is also a manual adjustment brake hardware kit available on the 1960 to 1962 cars so if you start mixing and matching any of these different hardware types there can be some possible problems. From your description of the adjusters length this could be a possible cause so check that you have the correct hardware application for your front drums. Again some Pictures would be helpful.

As a side note the rear axle depending on the model has three possible drum brake sizes, plus three wheel cylinder sizes and the two hardware parts combos. But for referance in your case it will be the 9 inch Dia. X 1 1/2 inch wide Drums and shoes With the 7/8 inch wheel cylinder with also the same hardware kit parts as the front brakes plus the addistional parking brake hardware parts. Good luck (y) :nod:
 

63flcn

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Bubba, thanks, you have been helpful across all the threads I have going!

All of the 1960 to 1963 standard base 144 or 170 Six cylinder cars were equipped the 2 1/4 wide X 9 inch diameter Drums and shoes, these were used with a 1 1/16 inch wheel cylinders.

Here is what I ordered and installed. I have not ordered Drums but thinking I should. I thought the drums were 2.5'' wide? I could not find a hardware kit to save my life, so I reused what was in there.

Shoes: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/AGB-243PG
Driver Cylinder: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/dhb-w40823
Passenger Cylinder: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/DHB-W40824

Attached is a before photo, I do not have an after but take my word it is much more clean haha. Notice how turned in the adjustment is? When I put the new shoes on, that is almost maxed all the way out now. For reference theses still would grab if I touched the brakes in this condition, so the pads were close enough to make contact at this adjustment.

WDvWsQ2.jpg
 

bubba22349

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Thanks for the picture 63flcn, it helps a lot. :shock: yes those front brakes sure needed a good cleaning if it's ever going to stop as it should. :rolflmao: Over the years I have also seen many as bad or worse. :mrgreen: The shoes and wheel cylinder parts you listed should be correct. X2 like B Ron Co mentioned above I always check the new shoes to the old ones to see if they match by setting them on top of each other. Rarely have I had this happen but it does somtimes, in your case there maybe some difference like in the shoe thickness. They also once used to make oversized shoes that were then arched (ground) to fit the drums by the installer it gave a better brake job with faster bedding or setting of the shoes to the drums, this practice has been stopped many years ago.

Your brake hardware has the manual adjusters these were used on all the 1960 to 62 Falcons / Comets base models, this hardware has the correctly matched parts and should not be a problem. It may have been changed as lots of people didn't like the self adjusters, or if your car is a very early build 1963 model they may have been factory installed. Ford had the empty parts bin policy so pervious year parts are used first. The early hardware is still available as wel as the 1963 self adjusting type. Here is the manual adjuster listing https://www.summitracing.com/oh/parts/a ... refilter=1

They also have a couple listings for the front drums here is one. https://www.summitracing.com/oh/parts/a ... refilter=1

After seeing some of what you had I think the cause of the adjusters extended position My best guess is your going to find it will be because of either the old brake drums are cut oversize or that maybe the shoes are a different size thickness then your old ones. You could test this out by installing a new set of drums or reinstalling the old shoes to see if the adjuster goes back in were they were. Best of luck. (y) :nod:
 

63flcn

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or if your car is a very early build 1963 it may have been factory installed
Based on the VIN it was built in June of 1963

I thought self adjusters were only on the rear drum brakes?

The shoes are long gone at this point. I will order new drums when I go through the rears and add a dual master reservoir master cylinder.

Here is something another forum pointed out could be an issue:

I bled the brakes AFTER adjusting the shoes. So... maybe that was wrong? The cylinders were empty when adjusting the shoes. So essentially had I bled them first, the cylinders would have filled and extended and then the adjustment would be correct. Correct me if I am wrong
 

bubba22349

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63flcn":1d0phjmv said:
or if your car is a very early build 1963 it may have been factory installed
Based on the VIN it was built in June of 1963

I thought self adjusters were only on the rear drum brakes?

The shoes are long gone at this point. I will order new drums when I go through the rears and add a dual master reservoir master cylinder.

Here is something another forum pointed out could be an issue:

I bled the brakes AFTER adjusting the shoes. So... maybe that was wrong? The cylinders were empty when adjusting the shoes. So essentially had I bled them first, the cylinders would have filled and extended and then the adjustment would be correct. Correct me if I am wrong

:hmmm: Ok then your car is a very late build its at the end of production for 1963 models, it for sure would have had the self adjusters. The self adjusters were all ways and in my OPIN to be safer should be used on all four wheels, as well as the great feature of less service maintenance of the brakes, just like with the manual adjusters when used again in my OPIN should also be match and used on all four of the wheels.

If You wanted to use the self adjusters you can try Motorcraft part # BRAK-2515 this is the self adjuster repair kit for the right side rear listed as fitting 1963 up to 1970 Ford Falcon's with 9 inch drum brakes, it should also fit on the same side of the front brakes too. I am sure that it's going to fit the early year Falcons / Comets 1960 to 1962 also (if someone wanted to upgrade their early model cars) since the same brake shoe part numbers are used for the 1960 to 1970 Falcon's, Comets, Mavericks with 144, 170, and 200 inline six'es and using the 9 inch drum brakes. I don't have the left side part number handy and no longer have easy access to my parts books to look them up. If you have a good parts house near you (like NAPA) they can probally look them up and cross reference them.

As far as the quote that you might of bled your brakes wrong or got the wrong adjustment because the cylinders weren't extended this isn't true, "you did them correctly". If you study the brake shoe assemblies you can see the large upper "return springs" control the position of the top of shoes holding them tightly to the upper center anchor post, the bottom of the shoes are held apart the correct distance from the drum by the lower adjusters. The wheel cylinders are not extended any different after being blead as the top return springs also hold the wheel cylinder in its retraced postion until you step on the brake pedal to apply the brakes. The new wheel cylinder are going to have air in it until you blead them and you cannot really blead them until all the brake system parts are assembled correctly including the drum for the shoes to push against. There is a built in residual presure valve In the master cylinder that is designed to keep a small amout pressure in the brake lines (after it blead) so that the Hydrolic's will work correctly. I have have always assembled the brake shoes and adjusted them close to the durm as well as setting the master cylinders push Rod clearance correctly before ever bleeding the fresh Hydrolic parts. Hope that is of some help good luck. :nod: (y)
 

bubba22349

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The Mustangs I think were a little different but in any case that is a picture of the 10 inch brakes. Yes the lower picture is what you would want for your Falcon 9 inch drums, if you wanted to now go with the self adjusters. As old as I am getting I lean towards using them on everthing (except maybe a race car) don't want to be crawling under cars any more than I absolutely have to. Looking at that lower picture you can see that the large upper springs (brake return springs) are still the same for both type of the adjusters. The parts repair kit you would need gives you the different self adjusters. the cable, the cable guide piece, the adjuster foot, and the different lower return spring all those parts come in the self adjuster repair kit. The front and rear 9 inch drum brakes use the same repair kit for the drivers side front and rear, as well as another kit the passenger side front and rear so need two of the right and two of the left repair kits to do both ends. Good luck (y) :nod: Edited
 

bubba22349

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Was hard to find a listing on Summit but they do have the Self Adjuster repair kits they fit on the 1963 to 1970 Ford Falcons / Comets, 70 Mavericks, with base 9 inch drum brakes. They probally also have the other hardware and spring kits for the upper return springs and shoe to backing plate anchors & springs. Good luck (y) :nod:

Here is a listing for one of the self adjuster repair kit for drivers side front and rear
https://www.summitracing.com/oh/parts/w ... refilter=1

Here's is another for the drivers side front and rear AC Delco
https://www.summitracing.com/oh/parts/a ... refilter=1

Here's passenger side front and rear AC Delco
https://www.summitracing.com/oh/parts/a ... refilter=1
 

Econoline

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I have 10" drums on my van and the purple spring goes on the adjuster and the yellow on the secondary and green on the primary. I didn't know the 9" were different. I put anti seize on all the contact points, pad to backing plate, spring connections, the self adjuster guide, the adjuster threads, etc.

8rMagN.jpg
 

63flcn

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Super frustrated.

1. The self adjustment kits I was sold are for 10'' drums. I think I can find 9'' cables locally otherwise will need to order them.
2. The spring/hardware kit I ordered from MACs was a waste of time. 90% of the stuff does not work.

Anyway. Here are some photos of where I am at. Take a look and let me know what I am missing. The self adjuster in the kit is the same size as the one that was in there.

I am installing new drums tomorrow. I verified the old ones and new ones matched, the old ones had not been turned out too much. Not enough to cause this much difference.

So I am still stumped as to where this extra play is coming from. I verified the drums and shoes are 9''. The old new self adjsuter are the same size. :banghead:

Attached is a photo of the front adjuster and how far out it is before the drums start dragging.


Also attached is a photo of how the rear shoes/hardware came out. No self adjusters in the rear either.


A93fj8L.jpg

LHViuRU.jpg

YB77TrN.jpg

9vDezAP.jpg
 

bubba22349

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This is a link (Summit) that shows the 9 inch self adjuster repair kit parts this was is in my above post #14. https://www.summitracing.com/oh/parts/w ... refilter=1

This repair kit should have all these hardware parts for a 9 inch drum brake i.e. The correct lenght cable, the self adjuster, the cable guide, the self adjuster mechanism, and a rubber dust cover for the backing plate. The only thing you are missing with this kit is the correct longer bottom return spring which is different than the manual adjuster return spring so you may have ordered the wrong hardware kit or the bottom spring. You can't use the manual adjuster bottom return spring for anything but a manual adjuster. Look at this picture you posted above for the 9 inch backing plate it has all the right parts and this is how it looks when it's assembled correctly.

I am sorry about all the troubles your having, I wish you would have started out posting all these great pictures at the beginning probally could have saved you, some time and frustration. Anyway if that's the position of the manual adjusters and the shoes are now dragging the drum then they are not adjusted out to far there is still going to be plenty of adjustment left to operate safety. Do your new top return springs match those that were installed before? If they don't match in length, diameter, and color then they probally aren't the right ones for the 9 inch brakes. Good luck (y) :nod:

EDIT Found this one from a 63.5, I imagine this is what I am going for. From your above post #12.
nxQNDMD.jpg
 

63flcn

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Thanks for all the help.

I saw those kits as well but they are back-ordered for a month. Nothing available locally for 9'' drums. The car is currently sitting in my driveway as those photos show, they were from today. May just throw it back together without the self adjusters. I am going to Napa tomorrow to see if they might have a 9'' cable separate from the kit.

The MACS kit is only good for the 2 upper springs and the lower self adjustment spring.

Been staring at that picture a lot during this process. It seems the adjustment wheel is all the way in. Who knows, if there is enough there on mine Ill just run it.
 

bubba22349

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What you need to know is in the above picture the adjuster is all the way in and this is only the starting point for when your assembling the brake shoes to the backing plate. So it's not been adjusted out any yet so as to fit the drums diameter, when it is adjusted the adjuster is going to be atleast 1/4 to 3/8 inch out, and ruffly the adjustment screw is about 1 1/2 inch long. Looks like all you lack is the correct lenght cable if you already have the right bottom springs hope you find them at NAPA. Best of luck (y) :nod:
 

63flcn

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Spent some time on it today.

Found some 9'' drum cables at NAPA for a 1987 Mustang that fit.

Here are some final pics. Let me know if anyone has any feedback. Seems like its all dialed now.

Not sure the self adjusters are doing their thing though. Did some hard braking forward and in reverse with no noticeable change.

But none the less, the brakes work 100 times better, just needs some fine.

mp78l84.jpg

cGAJeBy.jpg
 
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