All Small Six Back in the Saddle

[cr_bobcat]

Hey folks! It's been a long time since I've been on here. Busy with life and all that good stuff. I managed to find a 250 block for $100. When I checked the cylinders it was still standard bore and could see the cross-hatching where someone rand a dingleball hone through it. It also has a brand new timing set of the early variety without the built-in timing retard. The plan is to supercharge it. I haven't decided on the unit yet but it'll either be a Paxton setup from Paradise Wheels or I'll build my own kit with a Rotrex C38. I've already got a serpentine balancer for it and confirmed fitment. I'm not going crazy with the boost - just enough to make it sporty. But...and there's always a "but"...I'm using this as a platform to tinker...

I got a sample set of roller lifters for a 460 with the removable links. I want to avoid windowing the block to be able to get the lifters/links installed. That said, I can't get them in the lifter galley as is. I have to get them all cockeyed to wiggle them in, so the link can't be attached while I do it. Has anyone done any creative grinding/milling around those gallies to know how much meat is there? It kind of looks like I should be able to make them fit but will require some clearancing. I want to know if this is feasible before I call and ask someone to grind me a cam.

Cheers!

 

[pmuller9]

On the 300 block one lifter is installed all the way down with the other lifter and tie bar starting all the way up and the open end of the tie bar is slipped into the lifter that is all the way down.
This is done without the cam in place.

I understand that you are working with a closed lifter gallery.
What part of the block is interfering with the tie bar?

 

[cr_bobcat]

There is some casting irregularities in the galley. I think if I grind away in there that I can make it work. There's a potential I might have to clearance the deck a little bit but that would be a last resort kind of thing. I'm also assuming that I'll need to clearance around the end of the links once they're in place but that's an assumption at this point. It's been too cold here in Iowa in my un-heated garage to play around much. I'm sure there are some "install the first one from the bottom up first kind of things I can try too.

 

[pmuller9]

Here is the link for the 300 block install.
We only have to clearance the two end bosses.

https://fordsix.com/threads/installing-hydraulic-roller-lifters-in-a-240-300-block.86793/post-711734

 

[Engine Fan]

Been curious about the roller cam lifters fitting. I took a picture of lifter galley in my 250. You can see the 2nd lifter hiding behind the vertical coolant boss. While it doesn’t look like much material would have to be removed from the coolant boss, I,m not sure how thick the casting is there.
This likely similar to what the Jeep guys have to do for roller fitment.

 

[cr_bobcat]

Ah, I see what you did there. Lopping the end off of the link makes that much easier. Since the cam only has maybe 0.300" lift, I shouldn't need to worry about the link becoming disengaged and the lifter turning.

 

[pmuller9]

Ah, I see what you did there. Lopping the end off of the link makes that much easier. Since the cam only has maybe 0.300" lift, I shouldn't need to worry about the link becoming disengaged and the lifter turning.

The lifters come with the open tie bar end on one side specifically for the Ford inline six.
They are sold by Straub Technologies.

 

[aussie7mains]

Few comments here. The rotrex is centrifugal and will give a low manifold pressure at low rpm, a positive displacement compressor gives higher pressure at any RPM, ive got a Sprintex twin screw on mine it gives boost from idle, this makes for great flexibility to drive. Roller lifters is way overkill for your engine, and will be VERY difficult to do, (the Argentines use a pinned design with a slotted lifter to stop rotation, this is about as simple as you get) stick with a good flat tappet hydraulic design, you dont need a big cam for a boosted application, i run 208dgrees at 0.050, this allows revs to 5000, plenty for road use. The rotrex has an 8 rib belt, I doubt the polyvee pulley you have will be 8 rib, 6 is more typical, the compressor will need the 8 rib design, this is what i run and I do get slippage. Ive got photos of mine around the forums if your keen. Im a big fan of positive displacement compressors because they give great low down torque, and that is where you really feel it.
There is a lot of other things to be considered when looking into a belt driven compressor, drives, Compression ratio, just mounting the thing, ignition, exhaust etc etc. They do make for 'sporty drive".

 

[pmuller9]

stick with a good flat tappet hydraulic design

That is the problem here in the states.
Available and reliable flat tappet cam and lifters are becoming nonexistent.

 

[aussie7mains]

That is the problem here in the states.
Available and reliable flat tappet cam and lifters are becoming nonexistent.

Crow in Australia list them:-https://crowcams.com.au/product-search?category_id=48
The 63002 might suit you.

 

[cr_bobcat]

That is the problem here in the states.
Available and reliable flat tappet cam and lifters are becoming nonexistent.

What's the issue with the cams today? I've had a Clay Smith 264/274 110 in my 200 for awhile and didn't have any issues. Has CS quality gone down or something? I know they don't advertise as many grinds as they used to, but I hadn't heard of any widespread quality control issues.

 

[pmuller9]

What's the issue with the cams today? I've had a Clay Smith 264/274 110 in my 200 for awhile and didn't have any issues. Has CS quality gone down or something? I know they don't advertise as many grinds as they used to, but I hadn't heard of any widespread quality control issues.

CS is one of the last cam suppliers for the small six in the US.
Howards also had a few cores left.
That's all I'm willing to say.

I was hoping that you would be successful in making a roller cam work in a 250 six.

 

[cr_bobcat]

Ok. That makes me feel better. I know CS is still advertising and have only heard of 1 cam letting go but that was in build with quite a bit of boost. Same guy ran a different CS cam and 20 psi with no cam issues. A piston may have decided to leave the party, but not a cam issue...

I'm still going to look into the roller cam because purely "just because I can". I'm doing a few different things "just because". The balancer I have is one that I found here on a different thread. A year specific one from a 300. Even if I don't end up running a SC, I want a serpentine setup, so I'm playing around with that.

 

[pmuller9]

Which cylinder head?

 

[cr_bobcat]

I have a C9 log with a direct mount Holley flange and 48cc chambers. It's got 1.75/1.50 valves and shaft mounted 1.65 ratio adjustable rockers from RAU. It's been fully ported and the port divider installed. I'm not looking to build a special head for the current activity so if my compression gets too high I'll have to back off on the idea of throwing boost at it. I should be OK though because I'm only looking to have mild build, nothing exotic.

 

[awasson]

What's the issue with the cams today? I've had a Clay Smith 264/274 110 in my 200 for awhile and didn't have any issues. Has CS quality gone down or something? I know they don't advertise as many grinds as they used to, but I hadn't heard of any widespread quality control issues.

I've got a CS H-6474-0-B in my 200 and it broke in fine as well. It's a year and a half old with about 2,000 miles on it now. I bought a set of CS lifters when I bought the camshaft. I didn't even realize there was a problem with todays camshafts when I bought it. I used stock valve springs though. It might be that people are breaking their cams in with heavy springs and wiping the lobes. I intend to put heavier springs in this year with a modded large log head. My C9 head will be similar to yours (1.5" exh, 1.75" int, ported, direct mount 2V).

 

[cr_bobcat]

I've got a CS H-6474-0-B in my 200 and it broke in fine as well. It's a year and a half old with about 2,000 miles on it now. I bought a set of CS lifters when I bought the camshaft. I didn't even realize there was a problem with todays camshafts when I bought it. I used stock valve springs though. It might be that people are breaking their cams in with heavy springs and wiping the lobes. I intend to put heavier springs in this year with a modded large log head.

I bought mine from Mike years ago and have the springs with the damper. I did not go with the dual spring Toyota springs that CS sells today. I'm not sure what these damped springs came from.

 

[pmuller9]

I have a C9 log with a direct mount Holley flange and 48cc chambers. It's got 1.75/1.50 valves and shaft mounted 1.65 ratio adjustable rockers from RAU. It's been fully ported and the port divider installed. I'm not looking to build a special head for the current activity so if my compression gets too high I'll have to back off on the idea of throwing boost at it. I should be OK though because I'm only looking to have mild build, nothing exotic.

Will this be an everyday driver or a weekend fun car?
What will the compression ratio be?

 

[awasson]

I bought mine from Mike years ago and have the springs with the damper. I did not go with the dual spring Toyota springs that CS sells today. I'm not sure what these damped springs came from.

It sounds like yours was done the way it should be done. I'm following with a pretty similar recipe. I've got the 140 intake valves for my exhausts on the C9 head and I'll be running with adjustable OEM rockers on a shaved C9 head. I've now got all the parts. I just need to have the machine work done and assemble then swap the new head on.

I bought my springs from one of our members @DON. He's not sure what they came from. They're single springs 118lbs on the seat (closed) 210lbs open. I'm not sure what my compression ratio will be until I cc the chambers and figure out how much I can shave the head. Hoping for somewhere between 9.5 and maybe 10:1. I have 0.046" piston to block clearance and dished pistons so It might remain just shy of 10:1.

 

[cr_bobcat]

Will this be an everyday driver or a weekend fun car?
What will the compression ratio be?

Mostly a weekend fun car. I don't have AC for the stupidly hot Iowa summer weather for it to by my daily to/from work. I also have no plans to add power steering or brakes. I like the classic car to drive like a classic car. I know...I'm weird.

The following is the output from my homebrew compression tool. You can see all the inputs that go into it. I also have a stack of 0.035" gaskets that I can use if I want. That would bump me up to 9.3'ish. I haven't confirmed deck height or piston dish volume yet so I assume stock. I also realize that a 108 LSA isn't maybe what I would go with for boost...

================================================
INPUT - BUILD PARAMETERS
================================================
Block Specifications:
Cylinder Bore = 3.68 in
Centerline to Deck Height = 9.469 in
Rod Length = 5.88 in
Stroke = 3.91 in
Piston Dish Volume = 7 cc
Piston Compression Height = 1.511 in
Cylinder Head Specifications:
Combustion Chamber Volume = 47 cc
Intake Valve Diameter = 1.75 in
Exhaust Valve Diameter = 1.5 in
Rocker Arm Ratio = 1.65:1
Cylinder Head Gasket Dimensions:
Gasket Diameter = 3.75 in
Gasket Crush Height = 0.05 in
Camshaft Specifications and Events:
Intake Duration = 274 deg
Exhaust Duration = 274 deg
Lobe Separation Angle = 108 deg
Cam Intake Lift = 0.2937 in
Cam Exhaust Lift = 0.2937 in
Ground-in Advance = 2 deg
Camshaft Installation Advance = 0 deg
Intake Opening Angle = 31 deg BTDC
Intake Closing Angle = 63 deg ABDC
Exhaust Opening Angle = 67 deg BBDC
Exhaust Closing Angle = 27 deg ATDC
Intake Valve Lift = 0.48461 in
Exhaust Valve Lift = 0.48461 in
Valve Overlap = 58 deg
================================================
OUTPUT
================================================
Engine Displacement = 249.52 in^3
Rod to Stroke Ratio = 1.5:1
Rod Angle = 19.42 deg
Resulting Deck Height = 0.123 in
Squish Distance = 0.173 in
Static Compression Ratio = 9.06:1
Dynamic Compression Ratio = 7.40:1