EDIS-MS ignition curves?
- Thread starter CobraSix
- Start date
I've waited some time to respond to this post in hopes that someone else could answer your question.
It's not looking good.
I think that you will find that in general, finding specific ignition curves for just about any engine is next to impossible.
Why? I'm not sure. It could be that anything other than a basic centrifugal advance curve could be considered "proprietary" by whom ever, or what ever company developed the curve. Another thing could be that when you get in to fine tuning, these curves have to be tailored to the specific engine in it's specific application. Maybe a bit of both.
I've gone to considerable effort and expense to find out what the stock curves are for my '95 300. I had hoped that someone on the EEC-IV tuning forum would have reverse engineered the appropriate processor maps for these engines. I bought and paid for a screen shot of what was supposed to be the ignition data for this engine, but it turned out to be all but useless. The stock EEC uses several base curves with even more modifiers, so much so that it is very difficult to completely understand it and simplify it into a single load/RPM curve.
I wish I had better news for you, but so far I am every bit as frustrated over it all as you probably are. It all boils down to, "you have to do your own experimenting and see what works for you".
It's not looking good.
I think that you will find that in general, finding specific ignition curves for just about any engine is next to impossible.
Why? I'm not sure. It could be that anything other than a basic centrifugal advance curve could be considered "proprietary" by whom ever, or what ever company developed the curve. Another thing could be that when you get in to fine tuning, these curves have to be tailored to the specific engine in it's specific application. Maybe a bit of both.
I've gone to considerable effort and expense to find out what the stock curves are for my '95 300. I had hoped that someone on the EEC-IV tuning forum would have reverse engineered the appropriate processor maps for these engines. I bought and paid for a screen shot of what was supposed to be the ignition data for this engine, but it turned out to be all but useless. The stock EEC uses several base curves with even more modifiers, so much so that it is very difficult to completely understand it and simplify it into a single load/RPM curve.
I wish I had better news for you, but so far I am every bit as frustrated over it all as you probably are. It all boils down to, "you have to do your own experimenting and see what works for you".
You'll have to wait about six days, but I only have:-
1998 Alloy headed 245 Cube Aussie/Kiwi spec Explorer SOHC EDIS-6, Port EFI 205 hp net, 9.7:1 compression, 4400 test weight, and all the fruit. About 50 hp up on your 1992 Xploder. Running 87 octane.
(I'm blue printing other curves from the 1971 Iron head Ozzie log 250 Bosch 61 non electronic, 1-bbl Bendix Stromberg 155 hp gross
1976 Iron X-flow 250 Bosch 61 non electronic, 1-bbl Bendix Stromberg 123 hp net
1982 Alloy Cross flow 250 Bosch 62 Duraspark 1-bbl Bendix Stromberg 126 hp net
1982 Iron Non cross flow 200 log Duraspark II 1-bbl Holley 1946, 91 hp net engines)
Megasquirt style, a simple plot is a 12 by 12 or 8 by 8 axis graph.
The Ford EEC image map for ignition is a more complicated 3d map, incorporating %load via MAP, rpm, and incipient detonation via there own piezo electric knock sensor. I used this concept of data display on calibration of Salt Spayers, Skid resistance tests, and road rougness, where the out-put is based on two, not one variable. To get it, its not just a handbrake application in drive, and gun the engine at various revs, it actually requires you to run 100% load through the whole rev range, and then come down in loads until your on no load at all. The rate of load application needs to be about 600 rpm increase each second.
For advance, its variables are
1.rpm, 2,load and
3, a colored key section.
You won't get how close to knock the ignition is with my plots unless I use one of two types of piezo electric knock sensor. I used 26 30 to 60 minute sessions over 1300 miles on my audit trail to resolve a map for my Exploder. It's fun to see the data logger show negative advance on heavy lift off, or massive 37.5 total advance at just 2000 rpm on a cool day in over drive 5th at 3000 feet.
Was trying to get stock 1983-1988 EFI X-flow and 1993/1997 EDIS-6 OHC I6 curves, but the first were Bosch LE II, then EEC4, and then from 1993 to 1998, they didn't have a compliant ODB 2 port. I prefer to use Car Scan because it only needs an EEC5 TFI plug in to read load.
1998 Alloy headed 245 Cube Aussie/Kiwi spec Explorer SOHC EDIS-6, Port EFI 205 hp net, 9.7:1 compression, 4400 test weight, and all the fruit. About 50 hp up on your 1992 Xploder. Running 87 octane.
(I'm blue printing other curves from the 1971 Iron head Ozzie log 250 Bosch 61 non electronic, 1-bbl Bendix Stromberg 155 hp gross
1976 Iron X-flow 250 Bosch 61 non electronic, 1-bbl Bendix Stromberg 123 hp net
1982 Alloy Cross flow 250 Bosch 62 Duraspark 1-bbl Bendix Stromberg 126 hp net
1982 Iron Non cross flow 200 log Duraspark II 1-bbl Holley 1946, 91 hp net engines)
Megasquirt style, a simple plot is a 12 by 12 or 8 by 8 axis graph.
The Ford EEC image map for ignition is a more complicated 3d map, incorporating %load via MAP, rpm, and incipient detonation via there own piezo electric knock sensor. I used this concept of data display on calibration of Salt Spayers, Skid resistance tests, and road rougness, where the out-put is based on two, not one variable. To get it, its not just a handbrake application in drive, and gun the engine at various revs, it actually requires you to run 100% load through the whole rev range, and then come down in loads until your on no load at all. The rate of load application needs to be about 600 rpm increase each second.
For advance, its variables are
1.rpm, 2,load and
3, a colored key section.
You won't get how close to knock the ignition is with my plots unless I use one of two types of piezo electric knock sensor. I used 26 30 to 60 minute sessions over 1300 miles on my audit trail to resolve a map for my Exploder. It's fun to see the data logger show negative advance on heavy lift off, or massive 37.5 total advance at just 2000 rpm on a cool day in over drive 5th at 3000 feet.
Was trying to get stock 1983-1988 EFI X-flow and 1993/1997 EDIS-6 OHC I6 curves, but the first were Bosch LE II, then EEC4, and then from 1993 to 1998, they didn't have a compliant ODB 2 port. I prefer to use Car Scan because it only needs an EEC5 TFI plug in to read load.
xctasy":3cgue7b0 said:
My 32 bit Toshiba lap top computer is with Downer, the contracting company I work for (they up load a program to do GPS and data logging for potholes etc, and I normally use it when I'm on the road auditing). All the ignition CarCode files are in that computer at Downer, so I can't download them in the immediate future.
The one I normally use, this one, is a 64 bit Acer Aspire 5740G. Alex Peppers Car Code system doesn't work on 64 bit computer unless they are reset to operate as 32 'byters'
Ignition maps aren't much of a hassle, you just use the realtime playback, and match MAP, RPM, and advance, then plot the graph. The degree of incipient knock (yellow, orange, red) can't be done unless a knock sensor reading is charted.
Copying an ignition map that isn't a non cross flow 3.3 might be a bit ropey. The 3.3 US and Aussie Logs just require a rolling road dial back ignition test with a TPS hookup. The 3.2 CFI EA Falcon uses a pretty good EFI TFI ignition map, I'll see if I can hook up the J3 peg to a data logger on its throttle body EEC IV system
turbo2256b
Well-known member
With my 302 putting out about 430 HP I started wit ha base similar for most any engine near the same build. Input that curve for WOT and filled in all the spark load charts withthe same curve. Then started data loging basicly trading timing load and fuel at different points to get results I desired.
What worked for me on the locost was to first set up the table as if it were a centrifugal distributor. Set the idle advance at a point just below maximum torque. Then on the next level down on the rpm bin, make the advance a bit higher. That way if idle dips below your desired rpm, the added advance will help bring rpm back up again.
Then just gradually scale the table across the rpm bins so that you get to about 32-33 degrees at 3000 rpm. Then add another slope up to about 38 degrees at 5500-6000 rpm.
The engine should run well under load with just that. You can start altering the map for vacuum afterwards. For example, if you get any pinging under load, just look at your rpm and start contouring less advance at those loads, say between 60 to 100 Kpa (100 = WOT on a NA engine). At high rpm and low load, as if you are coasting and pulling 20 Kpa vacuum, you can add in several degrees. I have as much as 40 degrees at 5000rpm off the throttle.
BTW, you can only go as far as 60 degrees advanced (really about 50-55) before you are firing the adjacent cylinder anyway, so you have to have some sort of limit.
Tuner studio is the easiest way to adjust a map. You can see it graphically and pull the points up or down to create a nice flow.
Then just gradually scale the table across the rpm bins so that you get to about 32-33 degrees at 3000 rpm. Then add another slope up to about 38 degrees at 5500-6000 rpm.
The engine should run well under load with just that. You can start altering the map for vacuum afterwards. For example, if you get any pinging under load, just look at your rpm and start contouring less advance at those loads, say between 60 to 100 Kpa (100 = WOT on a NA engine). At high rpm and low load, as if you are coasting and pulling 20 Kpa vacuum, you can add in several degrees. I have as much as 40 degrees at 5000rpm off the throttle.
BTW, you can only go as far as 60 degrees advanced (really about 50-55) before you are firing the adjacent cylinder anyway, so you have to have some sort of limit.
Tuner studio is the easiest way to adjust a map. You can see it graphically and pull the points up or down to create a nice flow.
E4ODnut":kapeahkg said:
That was on the 200 Crossflow hybrid. Idle was at about 750 with about 22 degrees. Cranking advance was 10 degrees BTDC.
Here's a screen shot of what it looked like after plugging in some vacuum advance.
You can see on the low side that I have more advance at 500 than at 700. That way if the engine idle dipped below 700 there was some residual advance to help pull it back up to idle speed again. It worked pretty well to hold the speed very steady.
Stock timing maps won't be as aggressive. For example, compare the stock timing map for a typical 305 small block Chevy with TBI.
Attachments
Very interesting maps. I am surprised to see how conservative the 305 TBI is. Perhaps the TBI engines have a faster burn than the older models.
My stock 300 on 87 octane won't tolerate anywhere near the full throttle advance your engine does. It is more like the GM curve except that I am limited to a minimum of 10 degrees at any point.
My stock 300 on 87 octane won't tolerate anywhere near the full throttle advance your engine does. It is more like the GM curve except that I am limited to a minimum of 10 degrees at any point.
It would be 4-6 degrees lower were it not for the aluminum head. Also, the CR was only 9.0:1 and with mid- or priemium fuel it tolerates that much advance. 100 Kpa, 30.9 @ 6000 seems like a lot, but that's a rare place to be. Fully loaded, WOT at max rpm! With the gearing I had you would be doing about 165mph in 5th!
That 305 TBI example was pre-vortec so the chambers are probably similar in action to what you might see in a 300. Same sort of wedge with some quench, but low-swirl, slow burn. With Vortecs you have a fast-burn chamber that needs less advance. Typical Vortec performance tuning only has 32-33 degrees max with 8-10 additional vacuum. The conservative timing has to take into account a stock tune that can use really crappy fuel and won't ever, ever detonate on the worst day. That's how they can find so much power in a chip. But in a truck or van, you need longevity over power output.
That 305 TBI example was pre-vortec so the chambers are probably similar in action to what you might see in a 300. Same sort of wedge with some quench, but low-swirl, slow burn. With Vortecs you have a fast-burn chamber that needs less advance. Typical Vortec performance tuning only has 32-33 degrees max with 8-10 additional vacuum. The conservative timing has to take into account a stock tune that can use really crappy fuel and won't ever, ever detonate on the worst day. That's how they can find so much power in a chip. But in a truck or van, you need longevity over power output.
thesameguy
Famous Member
Been a while since this thread was updated, but I'm hoping I can pilfer someone's ignition maps. I now have a totally stock carb'ed 200 running on EDIS - I'm looking for some sort of map to start with. I can correct for MAP and temp, but not knock. Any help is appreciated!
thesameguy
Famous Member
Megajolt.
thesameguy
Famous Member
I think 10x10, but yes MAP and RPM.
I did a bit of searching on Megajolt. I'm impressed.
You are quite welcome to the spark map for my 300. It is very conservative because my engine simply doesn't like a lot of timing so it should be able to run just about anything with no risk of ignition caused detonation. I understand the EFI heads have fast burn combustion chambers so that is the likely reason. I use 12 x 12 maps referencing load as Manifold Absolute Pressure on the y axis and RPM on the x axis. The load axis is inverted from the way Megajolt illustrates it but that's not a problem as long as you realized that when you enter your cells.
We can do this several ways. If you PM me and give me your e mail address I can make up an Excel spread sheet with the values I use and send it to you. Or, if you tell me what values of MAP and RPM you want to use I can make up a spread sheet with my values and interpolate them over to the ones you would like to use and fire it off. Whatever you prefer.
You are quite welcome to the spark map for my 300. It is very conservative because my engine simply doesn't like a lot of timing so it should be able to run just about anything with no risk of ignition caused detonation. I understand the EFI heads have fast burn combustion chambers so that is the likely reason. I use 12 x 12 maps referencing load as Manifold Absolute Pressure on the y axis and RPM on the x axis. The load axis is inverted from the way Megajolt illustrates it but that's not a problem as long as you realized that when you enter your cells.
We can do this several ways. If you PM me and give me your e mail address I can make up an Excel spread sheet with the values I use and send it to you. Or, if you tell me what values of MAP and RPM you want to use I can make up a spread sheet with my values and interpolate them over to the ones you would like to use and fire it off. Whatever you prefer.
thesameguy
Famous Member
My install thread is here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=67718
The last post has a short video of the car actually running.
I would really appreciate any starting point - my 200 is old and stock so not aggressive sounds pretty good to me. Right now it's got a non-SCV Holly and a LoM distributor (mismatched!), so anything is an improvement.
My plan is to configure the rev limiter to 5000rpm (it's an automatic - I'll never get there anyway ), and break down the curve into 10 500rpm segments, letting MJ interpolate in between. That'll give me more than enough configurability. I just want to get it to "very drivable" - I'm seriously thinking about paying for some dyno time to see what I can actually get.
I'll pm you!
The last post has a short video of the car actually running.
I would really appreciate any starting point - my 200 is old and stock so not aggressive sounds pretty good to me. Right now it's got a non-SCV Holly and a LoM distributor (mismatched!), so anything is an improvement.
My plan is to configure the rev limiter to 5000rpm (it's an automatic - I'll never get there anyway ), and break down the curve into 10 500rpm segments, letting MJ interpolate in between. That'll give me more than enough configurability. I just want to get it to "very drivable" - I'm seriously thinking about paying for some dyno time to see what I can actually get. I'll pm you!
by xctasy » Tue Mar 20, 2012 xctasy":9o82qp1i said:
I know form counts for nothing, your only as good as what you accomplish, despite your good intentions. Without completion, there can be no sucess...
Sorry its been so long, I bought an engine analyser and OBD program bcak in March 2012, but hve been too busy doing my carb, turbo charger, supercharger and road roughness calibration to prepare some good data to feed the tools.
In my opinion, you'll be totally safe with the stock Port EFI/EDIS Ford advance settings on non efi 1-bbl six with 8.5:1 compression for sure. They pin advance back because often the engines run 22:1 air fuel ratios on a tralling throttle, and a 1-bbl is always richer than that just to run without lean misfires. Stock SCV and non SCV and Durapark I and II igntion curves are on the websites for our sixes, so at the very least, you could copy those.
Just use the stock 3 and 4 liter Colonge V6 edis advance settings, as these engines have very good chamber filling and they run a 'means tested" advance system...if you don't meet the MAP conditions, it won't advance the engine too much. Running 9.7:1 compression with 87 AKI and a fat Explorer forces ford to pull the total advance to less than 36.5 degrees at the very heighest. That won't ever blow an iron headed 1-bbl 170 or 200 with a stock 240 or 256 degree cam.
I've done about 16 000 miles with Alec Peppers data logger on my Ex, and I've got the tables in video form. The peak advance is pretty similar to Jacks,and you can put a tip in on the idle....I've read negative 5 degrees advance on my 4.0 sohc in certain MAPs.
As long as your not over advancing things, you'll be fine, as EDIS is clean and sure fire.
I've had about five requests for Explorer 4.0 sohc base maps, I'm still working on that curve list, the stock advance curve for a modifed six will keep you out of trouble.
I'll do some stock three way plots so we can get started...I do law of machine calibrations like this for a living.
thesameguy
Famous Member
I would certainly be interested in any factory data. Right now, I am running a curve that starts at 12 degrees at 700rpm (idle speed in drive) and maxes at about 36 degrees at either 3000 or 3500rpm (I don't remember). ~3400rpm is 65mph in 2nd, and essentially as fast as this car is ever gonna go. My A:F (narrow band) looks pretty good throughout this range and there is no pinging on 87 or 89 (I don't remember what's in the tank). Of course, it's 50 degrees F here right now... things may change in summer (100 degrees F, reliably). I am not correcting for load or temp yet. I think I can increase timing a bit yet across the board and maybe yield a little fuel economy, but I am not sure there's any more real power to be gained.
My A:F (narrow band) looks pretty good throughout this range and there is no pinging on 87 or 89 (I don't remember what's in the tank). Of course, it's 50 degrees F here right now... things may change in summer (100 degrees F, reliably). I am not correcting for load or temp yet. I think I can increase timing a bit yet across the board and maybe yield a little fuel economy, but I am not sure there's any more real power to be gained.
