Fuel Slosh

TheFutura

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specifically, with a Motorcraft 2100 or 2150 2bbl, but anything with a float: My concern had been starvation during cornering. But I read in this forum that hard acceleration and deceleration is also a factor. I can sure see that. On a street driven 150-225 horsepower inline six with 2 two barrel Ford carburetors, for best atomization, which way should the butterflies point?
I’m aware that it gets into adaptor spacers and swirl if I use the standard V-8 position, with accelerator pump in front.
If they are mounted sideways, it provides a double shot of mist straight toward the intake port.
I am thinking hood clearance.
Thank you. I really enjoy this forum.
Mark
 
I think the main problem is the side ways mounted 2bbl. OEM applications are mounted with the throttle rod left to right, not front to back. This also turns the float hinge front to back, not ideal.
 
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not familiar with Moto' 2 Bbl's , but Holley 2300 -350/500 2Bbl use same as 4 bbl fuel bowl 'whistle' to help prevent slosh under g forces:

https://www.summitracing.com/search...=part-type&SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Ascending


I use the vent baffles on the 2300/250 blower carbs I build.

... may be more important to mount the carb with bowl away from hot exh. / headers if 'sideways'.

hav e fun

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Plenum 3Port / 2Bbl version NA 250


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hav e fun
 
Mixture thrust caused by part throttle angle of the butterflies is neutralized if there is 2" between the carb base and the intake plenum. Not sure about the small 6 log, but the 300 log intake has this space built into the design. the butterfly opens with the bottom (thrusting) side of the throttle facing the head, but it's several inches down the throat before it breaks off into the plenum, preventing #3 and #4 from getting most of the charge.
Without 2" of spacer between the carb and divided plenum, thrust is going to affect distribution in any orientation of the carb. Facing forward like V8, the incoming mixture is biased toward the rear cylinders. If the carb is mounted "sideways", the front facing the engine so the thrust is away from the valves will have less thrust bias than facing the carb away from the head.
As frozenrabbit said, most carbs will have more "slosh" issues when mounted sideways. This depends on the location of the inlet needle relative to the float. If inertia moves the fuel toward the needle, it goes rich, and vice versa.
 
When the plane of needle and float are perpendicular to inertia placed on the fuel in the bowl the mixture variations are minimum. Thus most carbs have the float oriented that way when the carb is facing forward on the engine, the engineer's assumed mounting. Like this, mixture shifts occur mostly on cornering, where the fuel is moving across the wide axis of the bowl, causing the float to rise turning one way, and drop turning the other. Turning a carb sideways has advantages in some I6 situations, but on most carbs this increases the mixture variation, as the plane of the needle/float is now parallel to the acceleration and braking inertia.
I invested extra $ to modify a Holley 390 4V on an Offy DP intake, where the carb has to be mounted facing the engine, by installing 4500 series center-hung float bowls to eliminate the accel/decel slosh, since the bowls were now oriented on this plane. Unfortunately this option is not available on Ford 2V carbs, as far as I know.

Cylinder to cylinder distribution variation from thrust is eliminated with a 2" riser but fuel slosh is it's own little demon.
 

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When the plane of needle and float are perpendicular to inertia placed on the fuel in the bowl the mixture variations are minimum. Thus most carbs have the float oriented that way when the carb is facing forward on the engine, the engineer's assumed mounting. Like this, mixture shifts occur mostly on cornering, where the fuel is moving across the wide axis of the bowl, causing the float to rise turning one way, and drop turning the other. Turning a carb sideways has advantages in some I6 situations, but on most carbs this increases the mixture variation, as the plane of the needle/float is now parallel to the acceleration and braking inertia.
I invested extra $ to modify a Holley 390 4V on an Offy DP intake, where the carb has to be mounted facing the engine, by installing 4500 series center-hung float bowls to eliminate the accel/decel slosh, since the bowls were now oriented on this plane. Unfortunately this option is not available on Ford 2V carbs, as far as I know.

Cylinder to cylinder distribution variation from thrust is eliminated with a 2" riser but fuel slosh is it's own little demon.
 
Wow. Thanks for this valuable information. Most definitive explanation on the subject I’ve ever read. I’m going to keep the Motorcrafts in the “engineer’s assumed mounting” position, and definitely incorporate at least 2” of spacer between the carb and top of plenum.
 
Wow. Thanks for this valuable information. Most definitive explanation on the subject I’ve ever read. I’m going to keep the Motorcrafts in the “engineer’s assumed mounting” position, and definitely incorporate at least 2” of spacer between the carb and top of plenum.
The Ford carbs are great units, hard to find a better 2V.
Adding a carb to intake spacer has one side effect, it increases plenum volume. The two main effects of this are 1)increased top-end power. That's moot on our mild 6's. The second is, it increases plenum richness when the pedal is released. All cab intakes go very rich when the throttle is shut from a partial to heavy throttle. Deceleration over-richness lingers longer with a spacer.
What intake manifold are you using in reference to this thread?
 
Yup, very rich. That makes sense. It’s when the vacuum gauge gets pegged and more fuel is sucked through the carburetor than necessary. I can verify this by thinking back on my ‘66 F-100 360 4bbl with headers Granny 4-speed. There were rust holes in the collectors and I could see flames through the floorboard when I let off of it.
The smaller diameter spacer holes probably make it more pronounced (Venturi effect?)
The intake will consist of two separate plenums,
1 into 3 like a reverse V-6 equal length header, Welded quarter inch thick aluminum ‘boxes’ with air directors inside. Each one will use a Motorcraft 2bbl. Fuel mixture issues will be lessened considerably.
I have an ‘82 Fairmont Futura, 200 automatic. The engine is sound; quiet, smooth, no smoke. This manifold is for a small six.
 
Yup, very rich. That makes sense. It’s when the vacuum gauge gets pegged and more fuel is sucked through the carburetor than necessary. I can verify this by thinking back on my ‘66 F-100 360 4bbl with headers Granny 4-speed. There were rust holes in the collectors and I could see flames through the floorboard when I let off of it.
The smaller diameter spacer holes probably make it more pronounced (Venturi effect?)
The intake will consist of two separate plenums,
1 into 3 like a reverse V-6 equal length header, Welded quarter inch thick aluminum ‘boxes’ with air directors inside. Each one will use a Motorcraft 2bbl. Fuel mixture issues will be lessened considerably.
I have an ‘82 Fairmont Futura, 200 automatic. The engine is sound; quiet, smooth, no smoke. This manifold is for a small six.
OK! Sorry, I didn't connect the dots on the custom intake. Nice!
Yes the high vacuum is pulling max fuel thru the idle circuit, and that's rich. But the primary source of the decel flooding is the high volume of air/fuel that's already in the intake when the throttle is snapped shut. Now there's too much fuel and the airstream has been cut off. All that has to work it's way thru the cylinders and it does it slowly since it's choked off at the top. The high vacuum on the idle screws contributes to the condition, but is not the primary source. The more volume an intake has, the worse the decel flooding. The factory log, it's barely discernable. The DP intake has enough decel flooding to affect drivability, it's an unavoidable side effect of the design.

An open spacer is the worst for increasing plenum volume and decel flooding. They aid top-end power though.
Single hole (per barrel) is better in two ways. Decel flooding is reduced since plenum is reduced relative to open spacer. And the now straightened-out descending air/fuel mix maintains good velocity into the intake, helping fuel particle suspension and cly-to-cyl distribution. With the smoothed-out flow, the carb base "sees" a more stable vacuum, which may aid in accurate internal metering function. Spacer holes which match the carb throttle size are ideal, and I suspect a spacer that smooth-tapered down to 10% or so smaller at the intake would benefit an economy-based build.
Generic off-the-shelf spacers have holes which are too big for all but the max size carbs. I've had this issue on every application, since I'm using a small carb on a mild performance 6. Would probably require a dyno to see the difference between spacer bores larger than carb bores over matched bores. But bigger bores bug me because of the turbulent micro-physics occurring in the fuel/air stream at the sharp "ledge" at the base of the carb where it transitions abruptly into the larger spacer bore. Plus the slight loss of downward inertia and slight increased volume, undesirable on a mild street-operated engine.

I found a phenolic spacer with the correct bore size for the tiny 390 4V on ebay. Sold (used) by a NASCAR team, used on the races where carb is limited to 390 cfm. (It's a nice piece!) An upcoming upgrade to '79 F100, found a 2V spacer with nearly matching bores for the 350 2V Holley on ebay, off a '60's Ford 289, was a factory piece. Double benefit on the 289 spacer, has the PCV port. Something neither the Aussispeed intake nor the base of the 40 year old carb had.
 

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Thanks! This all made sense. I have one of those cast 4bbl to 2bbl adapters and don’t like that “ledge” either. Now that I am aware of decel flooding, I have another reason to use something better. The 10% taper down in size is interesting, especially at that location. That will increase the velocity of the mixture.
I didn’t stop to consider how detrimental and counter-productive it is to have all that fuel “stalled” in the plenum when the throttle is closed.
I believe in phenolics; that is a nice piece. Plans call for one 3/4”-1” thick phenolic spacer/adaptor for each carb.
 
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