Grunt Hunt: Where does all the flywheel Hp go?

xctasy

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Adam raised a really profound thought in the X-Flow Variances post this week. I thought I'd follow it up with some details.
Note: Wheels used a Stewarts Dyno, and it was fairly well calibrated. It was used for many yearas untill front drive cars started jumping off the rollers. Last test was 1981. The tests were corrected for temp and pressure, and the cars were tested at the Castlereagh Drag strip from the early days untill 1983 when it closed. The cars were always tested two up, with at least half a tank of gas, timed by the same Mike McCarthy for years and years.

March 1979 Wheels

Quarter mile with a 250 auto 4.1 XC without A/C was 18.6 seconds.

May or June 1979 Wheels

It was 18.5 seconds as an 4.1 XD with A/C. The fuel figure above was for an A/C XD.

The Alloy head XD gave 18.3 secs

The XE Alloy head gave 18.0 secs as a Ghia 2-bbl with another 116 kilos of 'fruit and veggey' options, and gave 22 mpg plus.

The dyno figures came from Wheels 1979, and the XC was dyno tuned as having 62.6 rwkw (84 rwhp) at the wheels, a loss of 1.46. Thats 123 hp down to 84 hp.

A TE Cortina 4.1 six, tested on the same dyno, same day, with a poor state of engine tune, gave only 57.0 rwkw (77 rwhp), and couldn't even break a 18.2second quarter!

The difference was power loss of 1.60. That's 123 hp down to 77 hp.

I went through the old issues of Street Machine and Wheels, and found that 1.26 was a common power loss from flywheel hp to rear wheel horsepower.

I saw another article from Wheels Feb 1980. In it, TE Cortina 2.0 4-speed, with a factory 9.2:1 86 hp 65 hp at the rear whhels, a loss of 1.31. It did 18.9 second quarters. See, the Falcon 250 could loose a lot more with an auto transmission . There clearly must have been huge torque converter slip.

This is a characteristic I find on all production Ford autos before 1991. The manual 250 Falcons did easy sub 18's. A good 1983 XE carb will do 17.6 seconds all day, while the 4.1 auto has it hard doing better than 18 seconds flat.

A badly tuned Cortina x-flow won't beat a well tuned manual Falcon x-flow.
 
Probably was TC slip on the old XC, then. It had a C4 and quite possibly a bent eight converter. Not a high revving donk; probably hit 3500 occasionally. That was less than a year before I found FSP, and the last eight swap I did (bought a donor car and ended up ahead on the deal).
 
they were doing something wrong if an xc beat a te over the quarter with the same engine?i have 3 cortina's and my drive car has a stock xf 4.1 manual and hoses my mothers vr commodore auto.a stock 250 iron head single barrel isn't much slower.maybe the autos killed them?
 
I have some power curves in metrics athe the rear wheels. Here are some interesting period data.

The stock 4.1 TE was running like a dog, the 4.1 XC was in fine fettle. (Apparently, a stuck open EGR valve can hurt an x-flows power like this)

If you loose 650 pounds ( 2744 lb verses 3395), you should gain 1.1 seconds. 18.6 secs in an XC, and 17.5 secs in an auto TE.


In this case, it ran like a dog, and did 18.2's! The manual 2.0 ohc did 18.9 secs

Untitled-TrueColor-02.jpg


It's interesting to note that a set of headers on that same XC Falcon gave a 11.4 rear wheel kilowatt increase, or 18%, and a 12.6% economy boost.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/xecute/Extractors.jpg

The difference between a 160 odd hp XF EFI and a poorly tuned Corty, which did 16.4secs, is clear. The loss of rear wheel hp was less than 1.3, as a 162 hp X-flow in a car with an all up weight of 3662 pounds is 16.4 secs via the Quarter Mile Junior program.

Look at this fine specimen!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/xecute/XFEFI.jpg

XEPOWERCURVE.jpg
 
thats some good info.i don't mind the xc's i had a good 1.be interesting to see what times the dirty hx and torana done?can you work out what sort of times a te cortina with a xf 250 and extractors/exhaust would do over the quarter?thanks
 
DOMESTIC BLITZ (Wheels March 1979, Vol 50, No.4, Page 26) had a VB Commodore, TECortina, XC Falcon, HZ Kingswood and UC Torana comparo.

The Commodore VB 3.3 gave 19.2 sec 1/4 mile

RPM_____kW_____ Nm_____RWHP_____RWLB-FT
4500____47.0_____99.6_____63.0_____73.4
4000____50.7_____121.0____68.0_____89.2
3500____48.4_____132.2____64.9_____97.5
3000____40.2_____128.1____53.9_____94.4
2500____34.3_____131.0____46.0_____96.6

71 kW[DIN Net] (95 bhp) @ 3800 rpm
213 Nm[DIN Net] (157 lb-ft) @ 2200 rpm
9.2:1, 1-bbl, 3298 cc.
GM Stasburg Trimatic, 3.08:1 diff
Tare weight 1224 Kg, or 2698 pounds. Test weight approx 3100 lb's
Average Imperal mpg was 19.5 mpg.

Power loss was a factor of 1.4

The Torana UC 3.3 gave 19.8 sec 1/4 mile

RPM_____kW_____ Nm_____RWHP_____RWLB-FT
4500____39.6_____83.8_____53.1_____61.8
4000____44.7_____106.8____59.9_____78.7
3500____42.5_____115.9____57.0_____85.5
3000____35.8_____113.9____48.0_____84.0
2500____30.6_____116.7____41.0_____86.0

88 kW[SAE Gross] (118 bhp) @ 4000 rpm
251 Nm[SAE Gross] (185 lb-ft) @ 2100 rpm
9.4:1, 1-bbl, 3298 cc.
GM Stasburg Trimatic, 3.08:1 diff
Tare weight 1200 Kg, or 2646 pounds. Test weight approx 3046 lb's
Average Imperal mpg was 16.6 mpg.

Power loss was a factor of 1.97

The Cortina TE 4.1, in bad tune gave 18.2 sec 1/4 mile

RPM_____kW_____ Nm_____RWHP_____RWLB-FT
4500____42.8_____90.6_____57.4_____66.8
4000____53.6_____127.9____71.9_____94.3
3500____57.0_____155.4____76.4_____114.6
3000____51.5_____164.1____69.1_____121.0
2500____44.0_____168.0____59.0_____123.9

92 kW[DIN Net] (123 bhp) @ 3700 rpm
288 Nm[DIN Net] (212 lb-ft) @ 2400 rpm
9.0:1, 1-bbl, 4089 cc.
BW 35 Automatic, 2.92:1 diff
Tare weight 1220 Kg, or 2689 pounds. Test weight approx 3090 lb's
Average Imperal mpg was 17.9 mpg.

Power loss was a factor of 1.61

The Kingswood HZ 3.3 gave 20.1 sec 1/4 mile

RPM_____kW_____ Nm_____RWHP_____RWLB-FT
4500____27.6_____58.5_____37.0_____43.1
4000____41.0_____97.9_____55.0_____72.2
3500____40.2_____109.8____53.9_____81.0
3000____36.5_____116.2____48.9_____85.7
2500____32.0_____122.4____42.9_____90.2

88 kW[SAE Gross] (118 bhp) @ 4000 rpm
251 Nm[SAE Gross] (185 lb-ft) @ 2100 rpm
9.4:1, 1-bbl, 3298 cc.
GM Stasburg Trimatic, 3.36:1 diff
Tare weight 1369 Kg, or 3018 pounds. Test weight approx 3420 lb's
Average Imperal mpg was 17.8 mpg.

Power loss was a factor of 2.145

The Falcon XC 4.1, in good tune, gave 18.6 sec 1/4 mile

RPM_____kW_____ Nm_____RWHP_____RWLB-FT
4500____47.0_____99.6_____63.0_____73.4
4000____58.9_____140.6____79.0_____103.7
3500____62.6_____170.8____84.0_____125.9
3000____56.6_____180.3____75.9_____132.9
2500____48.4_____185.0____64.9_____136.4

92 kW[DIN Net] (123 bhp) @ 3700 rpm
288 Nm[DIN Net] (212 lb-ft) @ 2400 rpm
9.0:1, 1-bbl, 4089 cc.
BW 35 Automatic, 2.92:1 diff
Tare weight 1540 Kg, or 3395 pounds. Test weight approx 3800 lb's
Average Imperal mpg was 18.6 mpg.
Power loss factor was 1.46.
 
I've driven Richies TE with stock XE EFI engine, 5-speed Celica box...for about 400 m. :twisted:

It's massivley quick!!!!! (And that was before he imported some Genie headers for it!)

If the 162 hp XF engine has headers, there may be another 21 hp there, tops. With alloy head, a Cortina weighs 26 kilos less than an iron 250. That's about 1200 kilos. With one driver, start line weight is about 1290 kilos, or 2844 lbs. With 185 hp, there is the prospect of 14.4 sec quarters at 94 mph. An optimised high stall C4 or stock single rail will give the same figures. Sixes start way faster off line than eights, loose a lot at mid to full track.

Adding a 90 kilo passenger adds 0.4 seconds to the quarter. Towing a one ton trailer will loose 3.1 seconds. :D
 
I rechecked some issues of Wheels, the September 1979, Vol 51, No.4 one.

On Page 35, the Falcon, Commodore and Holden Kingswood were retested, the same models but the Falcon was an XD this time. The variance was interesting, with the Falcon six worse performance wise than the 330 pound XC tested in March 1979.

It's interesting to note the differences.

The Falcon XC 4.1, in good tune, gave 18.6 sec 1/4 mile

RPM_____kW_____ Nm_____RWHP_____RWLB-FT
4500____47.0_____99.6_____63.0_____73.4
4000____58.9_____140.6____79.0_____103.7
3500____62.6_____170.8____84.0_____125.9
3000____56.6_____180.3____75.9_____132.9
2500____48.4_____185.0____64.9_____136.4

92 kW[DIN Net] (123 bhp) @ 3700 rpm
288 Nm[DIN Net] (212 lb-ft) @ 2400 rpm
9.0:1, 1-bbl, 4089 cc.
BW 35 Automatic, 2.92:1 diff
Tare weight 1540 Kg, or 3395 pounds. Test weight approx 3800 lb's
Average Imperal mpg was 18.6 mpg.
Power loss factor was 1.46.

The Falcon XD 4.1, in good tune but new, gave 18.6 sec 1/4 mile. The earlier June Issue showed 18.5 secs.

RPM_____kW_____ Nm_____RWHP_____RWLB-FT
4500____56.6_____112.0____75.9_____82.6
4000____61.0_____147.6____81.8_____108.8
3500____63.3_____174.9____84.9_____129.0
3000____55.8_____180.0____74.8_____132.7
2500____48.4_____187.2____64.9_____138.0

94 kW[DIN Net] (126 bhp) @ 3600 rpm
292 Nm[DIN Net] (215 lb-ft) @ 1800 rpm
9.0:1, 1-bbl, 4089 cc.
BW 35 Automatic, 2.92:1 diff
Tare weight 1390 Kg, or 3064 pounds. Test weight approx 3464 lb's
Average Imperal mpg was 17.5 mpg, but it was sateted that 21.7 was possible easily in the June issue.
Power loss factor was 1.48.
Top speed was 162 km/h, or 101 mph. June issue had it doing 174 km/h, while the XC was able to do 162 km/h as well.

Just goes to show, the claimed hp and torque figures can amount to nothing, even with a 330 pound lighter car, if its not up to the factory flywheel figures.
 
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