Build Thread Harley Orange, a 1969 camper van build

Pontus

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Does anyone have a spare serpentine water pump pulley kicking around? I can't find one locally, and ebay/internet isn't any help either. My motor didn't come with one.
 

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER

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During the Arab oil embargo in 1973 I got laid off from Ford, like thousands of engineers.

Took a night welding course at the local community college.
At the end of the course the instructor said, "You're pretty good. How'd you like to teach this class next semester?"

I moonlighted teaching - and learning! - every manor of welding for the next seven semesters. That paid for two race cars.

You just never know. Getting laid off for 11 months was the best thing that ever happened.
 

Frank

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Does anyone have a spare serpentine water pump pulley kicking around? I can't find one locally, and ebay/internet isn't any help either. My motor didn't come with one.
Pontus, I mauled mine getting it off and bought one on ebay- for the 5.0 V8. It had a slightly different diameter. I think the difference was less than 10% slower WP speed than stock. No overheating issue, works fine. Original belt worked as well. The center hole matches the pump, but I had to widen out the 4 stud holes slightly, the pattern was a few thousands narrower than the 300 pump pattern. Was years ago, sorry I can't be more specific. Been in service for 75,000 miles without a hitch. PS- Just checked ebay, there are several used ones for 5.0 . Posted one, this pulley will work with the mods I mentioned.

 

Pontus

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Pontus, I mauled mine getting it off and bought one on ebay- for the 5.0 V8. It had a slightly different diameter. I think the difference was less than 10% slower WP speed than stock. No overheating issue, works fine. Original belt worked as well. The center hole matches the pump, but I had to widen out the 4 stud holes slightly, the pattern was a few thousands narrower than the 300 pump pattern. Was years ago, sorry I can't be more specific. Been in service for 75,000 miles without a hitch. PS- Just checked ebay, there are several used ones for 5.0 . Posted one, this pulley will work with the mods I mentioned.

Thanks, I might try that, although I don't like the idea of modifying something that spins without knowing if it was balanced. But that one looks to be a lot more complicated than the original which is simply a cup. Also, the middle hole doesn't look big enough. I was wondering if this one or this one would work, but none of the part numbers of these pulleys match up to the ones for the 4.9L. I see a lot of part numbers with 8509, but none match the E7TZ, F0TZ, or F4TZ prefixes. But everything 8509 looks like it will fit, mostly for 5.4L and 4.0L from late 90's early 2000s. I think I'll just blow the $20 to see if it works.
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I did find a water pump for sale that still had the pulley on it though, but I'm not paying $56 for it. It at least gives me a visual reference though.
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bubba22349

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I can tell you from replacing the water pump on my 1994 4.9 that there are two different water pumps used on the 4.9 EFI engines and i would think that they would also need two different pulleys to fit them since the center holes of pulley's are different sizes. The two water pumps also use a specialty tool kit with two different sizes to loosen for removal the clutch fan assemblies (it has left handed threads). The early engines from 1987 is one size my 1994 and up was a different size I can't tell you the exact year that they changed them over but if you do a search on the 4.9 (1987 to 1997) water pumps used and the years they fit it should get you into the ball park. Best of luck.
 

hodaka100

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I could mail you mine from a 88 e250. I have a good u-pull it near me if i ever change my 85 to serpentine.
 

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Pontus

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I could mail you mine from a 88 e250. I have a good u-pull it near me if i ever change my 85 to serpentine.
That looks a lot better than the later cup style. PM sent, and many thanks!

Edit: On second thought, that one looks WAY wider than the later models which will negate the increased flow of my new flowkooler pump. I thank you very much for the offer though. There is just one 4.9L at my local junkyard which I know still has pulleys, but I live in Wisconsin, so every bolt was locked up with rust last time I tried to get something off of that motor. Maybe I'll try again if the 5.4L pulley doesn't work out.
 
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Frank

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That looks a lot better than the later cup style. PM sent, and many thanks!

Edit: On second thought, that one looks WAY wider than the later models which will negate the increased flow of my new flowkooler pump. I thank you very much for the offer though. There is just one 4.9L at my local junkyard which I know still has pulleys, but I live in Wisconsin, so every bolt was locked up with rust last time I tried to get something off of that motor. Maybe I'll try again if the 5.4L pulley doesn't work out.
Well my info wasn't very helpful. Mine is a '90 with original style WP. Did not know they changed it, and it's too long ago for me to remember details on mine. The balancing was not an issue because the center hub fit snug on the snout. In my case the larger diameter did not affect cooling performance. I do have a large 4-core rad though.
 

sixtseventwo4d

Well-known member
On any of the pump/pulley configurations, the center hole on the pulley should fit closely on the pump center area as this serves as a pilot. Otherwise you risk premature pump bearing wear and belt fatigue. If you have to "adjust" the bolt holes it will be fine. It's a formed steel pulley will no balance to be concerned with. If you get one at salvage yard inspect it for signs of being hit anywhere; in a front collision it could be bent.
 

Pontus

Well-known member
Supporter 2021
During the Arab oil embargo in 1973 I got laid off from Ford, like thousands of engineers.

Took a night welding course at the local community college.
At the end of the course the instructor said, "You're pretty good. How'd you like to teach this class next semester?"

I moonlighted teaching - and learning! - every manor of welding for the next seven semesters. That paid for two race cars.

You just never know. Getting laid off for 11 months was the best thing that ever happened.
Had my first class last night. Apparently, I'm pretty good at TIG welding. I heard the teacher telling others how to do better, came to me and said, "Very good!" I didn't do any weld until I was comfortable with the movement thru the entire weld, which was the most difficult part tbh, especially when I started using filler.

I told him about my project, and he said we might get to stainless by the end of class, it's really complicated, etc... but pointed at me and assured me I'd learn it and get my project done. Told me to get my exhaust mocked up and bring it in next week. YAY!

But my excitement to go on welding after class came to an abrupt halt when I looked up the welders they were using and after learning what I need to do stainless. :shock: $4800 is the low end. I can get an old transformer based one for sale locally (a couple of them actually), but I do not have the power requirements without doing some rewiring. Damn things require an 80A breaker and needs to be hard wired because there's no common plugs that can handle that. There's of course cheaper options, but they either don't have the features I need (AC and pulse) or they're cheap chinese crap with bad service.

Here's my first filler weld. I tossed my first autogenous welds (no filler), but they were pretty good after a few initial runs. I had some serious spots in my eyes though. Not sure I trust an autodarkening helmet.

1632938015680.png
 

philford

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I had a lot of belt slippage issues with my 88 4.9L van. I had replaced that belt a few times as well as the tensioner, waterpump alternator, idler etc. I could find no issues that were causing it. no misalignment. this summer I replaced the belt again and noted that if I look at the grooves, the ones on my older belts were wider. I dont know if it was wear from slippage or manufacturing issues but I did find that after I put that last one on with another ( my third) new tensioner the problems went away. oil , brake fluid or anything greasy will make matters worse so be careful when filling oil etc. one drop is enough to cause an issue.

the tensioners vary there are aftermarket ones. the OEM one has an aluminum pin and I tried making an eccentric bushing so I could add more tension but It didn't make much difference. I also tried loading on more pressure and used a washer so I could lock the position and not rely on the spring tension. It helped a little but wasn't a real solution.


I put a GM alternator on my old volvo ( it had a generator) and I frequently overrev it, it then seems to light the warning light when I reach about 5K or so. and I've ignored that lamp and it still seems to charge up the battery ok. if I turn my lights on the idiot light goes out.

I was thinking that since you are probably doing some performance mods your average crank speed may be going up so maybe you do want the waterpump to go faster but Im not sure you want the alternator to spin so much faster. It might not hurt anything if it does. mine likely just needs a new regulator, it might be a bit flaky.

Maybe some of the others with more experience can comment if the pump has a speed limitation. I dont mean the bearings but some pumps can cavitate, can the water pump in a car suffer from cavitation if it's spun up past a certain speed? on something like an irrigation pump, cavitation makes a distinct noise but when you throw in a loud engine you may not even hear it. it has considerable slippage by design, so I imagine the water pumped would not follow a straight line if gallons per minute were graphed against engine speed. Im sure the ones who hot rod them are more in tune with how fast ti needs to go and I immagine that spiining them fast may waste power without much more cooling. it must have a speed range where it's most efficient but I have no idea what that would be.
 

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER

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The good news is that six cylinder alternators are generally also used on V8s, where engine speeds are higher. I would not worry about running it faster periodically.
Water pump cavitation can be brought on by too little system pressure. Running straight water does not help either. If you run a glycol-based coolant under pressure you should be OK.
 

BigBlue94

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had some serious spots in my eyes though. Not sure I trust an autodarkening helmet.

My AD helmet has settings for weld or grind, darkness, and sensitivity. The sensitivity setting makes it darken faster. Its a basic welding supply brand.

Ive only ever used a MIG. I use the normal 75/25 CO2/Argon for steel and stainless, and a spool gun with 100 Argon for aluminum. I have welded stainless to aluminized steel many times on exhaust with no ill effects. Not the prettiest, but it holds.
 

BigBlue94

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Maybe some of the others with more experience can comment if the pump has a speed limitation. I dont mean the bearings but some pumps can cavitate, can the water pump in a car suffer from cavitation if it's spun up past a certain speed?

I can offer only the shape of the impeller on the Flowkooler. Its a squirrel cage fan type of shape, but flattened out a bit.
 

hodaka100

Well-known member
Philford said the third time he replaced the tensioner it quieted... Same as my conclusion on my 88 van to blame the tensioner and only buy a ford one. He must of got 2 bad ones maybe. My opinion is to use a 3G alternator (more charging and run with one wire, no external regulator, it didn't increase any belt squeel for me) and try the water pump with a larger/lower speed pulley. With a good large radiator (salvaged from a 5.0 van and modified the hoses to fit) I cant even get my stock vans as warm as i want regardless of trying new 195 thermostats. When i had the electric fan i don't even think it ever turned on unless i was idling a long time in 100 degree weather. The original rad in my base model no ac 88 van would always run hot when under load. I think the point of having an efficient water pump would be to let it turn slower, especially if the max engine rpms are being increased.
 

sixtseventwo4d

Well-known member
One of the battle points on the serpentine belt systems is squeal. It worked well at one time right? Some of the causes....
Misalignment, resulting from a component getting replaced (alternator, air pump, etc.) and the spacer not being transferred or being previously lost.
Contamination, this could be engine oil, either spilled or leaking. If you can rub a clean shop towel over any of the pulleys and it shows traces; there's contamination. Know that there is a difference between oil/fluid contamination and dust from belt wear. Most of the time fluid contamination squeal becomes heard after warm up and not as much at cold start start up. This is just from my experience and has yet to be polled.
Wrong belt size for the application. this doesn't mean you have the wrong belt for your year-make-model- engine. Many times a component has been changed that incorporates a different diameter pulley from original and the tensioner has a limited range for running operation; this being inside of the extreme it has to move to install the belt.
Failing component, smog pumps, alternators, idlers, and the like all have bearings that can fail and cause misalignment or extreme belt loading and wear.
Fatigued tensioner spring- this speaks for itself.
Groove packing. the bottom of grooves get filled with a life of crud and the belt cannot seat in the pulleys. (This has been a #1 point of over look from technicians in my lines of work) With the belt removed, use an o-ring pick and trace the depths of each groove looking for crud (each groove matters because if the load is not even on the pulley then the belt doesn't seat completely, much like misalignment). Check the circumference of all of the pulleys. After cleaning with a pick use a good straight wire brush and go around the circumference again. Follow up with some brake cleaner. Locate your wear indicator pad on the tensioner, hopefully it's visible; and use this to determine if you have the correct belt or if it's worn past it's service.
After all of this, some pulleys may past any service life and need replacement. When looking at a cross section instead of it looking like a several wwww's it will resemble needle points.

Hope this benefits.
 
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Pontus

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Supporter 2021
Philford said the third time he replaced the tensioner it quieted... Same as my conclusion on my 88 van to blame the tensioner and only buy a ford one. He must of got 2 bad ones maybe. My opinion is to use a 3G alternator (more charging and run with one wire, no external regulator, it didn't increase any belt squeel for me) and try the water pump with a larger/lower speed pulley. With a good large radiator (salvaged from a 5.0 van and modified the hoses to fit) I cant even get my stock vans as warm as i want regardless of trying new 195 thermostats. When i had the electric fan i don't even think it ever turned on unless i was idling a long time in 100 degree weather. The original rad in my base model no ac 88 van would always run hot when under load. I think the point of having an efficient water pump would be to let it turn slower, especially if the max engine rpms are being increased.
I got the motorcraft tensioner purely because it had a proper socket for relief. I don't wanna be screwing around with some spring in the tight confines of a second gen van hood. Glad I did now after reading that.

But this engine will probably never breach 4k, mostly under 3500 I'd say judging from current use and gearing with just the old 240. With way more torque, I'll never need the revs. And I'll probably install AC eventually or at least a belt driven generator, so I'll design for a little extra cooling.
 

Frank

Well-known member
Supporter 2021
Philford said the third time he replaced the tensioner it quieted... Same as my conclusion on my 88 van to blame the tensioner and only buy a ford one. He must of got 2 bad ones maybe. My opinion is to use a 3G alternator (more charging and run with one wire, no external regulator, it didn't increase any belt squeel for me) and try the water pump with a larger/lower speed pulley. With a good large radiator (salvaged from a 5.0 van and modified the hoses to fit) I cant even get my stock vans as warm as i want regardless of trying new 195 thermostats. When i had the electric fan i don't even think it ever turned on unless i was idling a long time in 100 degree weather. The original rad in my base model no ac 88 van would always run hot when under load. I think the point of having an efficient water pump would be to let it turn slower, especially if the max engine rpms are being increased.
Agreed. As I said earlier, the 5.0 WP pulley I installed on the Advance Auto WP is shaped exactly as the original, but turns 10% slower, being slightly larger in diameter. I replaced the rad when I bought the truck and got an exact fit replacement. It is a 4 tier, and I can't get to a stable thermostat temp in winter, and never have overheating issues in summer deep-south heat and AC on. 95% of my driving is under 1700 rpm. A larger pulley will not run hot if the rest of the system is correct.
 

Bronctopia

Well-known member
Had my first class last night. Apparently, I'm pretty good at TIG welding. I heard the teacher telling others how to do better, came to me and said, "Very good!" I didn't do any weld until I was comfortable with the movement thru the entire weld, which was the most difficult part tbh, especially when I started using filler.

I told him about my project, and he said we might get to stainless by the end of class, it's really complicated, etc... but pointed at me and assured me I'd learn it and get my project done. Told me to get my exhaust mocked up and bring it in next week. YAY!

But my excitement to go on welding after class came to an abrupt halt when I looked up the welders they were using and after learning what I need to do stainless. :shock: $4800 is the low end. I can get an old transformer based one for sale locally (a couple of them actually), but I do not have the power requirements without doing some rewiring. Damn things require an 80A breaker and needs to be hard wired because there's no common plugs that can handle that. There's of course cheaper options, but they either don't have the features I need (AC and pulse) or they're cheap chinese crap with bad service.

Here's my first filler weld. I tossed my first autogenous welds (no filler), but they were pretty good after a few initial runs. I had some serious spots in my eyes though. Not sure I trust an autodarkening helmet.

View attachment 8444
If you only plan to do steel and Stainless steel, and not Aluminum, then you can lower your welder acquisition cost by getting a DC only inverter welder.
They are much more efficient than the older transformer tech, and can output around 200 Amps from a 50 Amp 240V shop plug. Duty cycle won't be continuous, but at the gauges you would use for exhaust you won't want to throw that much heat very long anyway.
If you don't have business contracts riding on service, you could buy outside the Blue and Red 'domestic' brands.
Just be sure to research recent reviews from a source you trust, and maybe open the case to make sure they included the Transistors they SAY are in their product.
There is a lot of jockeying for various market segments among the mid-teir makers.
 
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