All Big Six Hhmmm...

Relates to all big sixes

111JESUS

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As some have been following my floundering around with my questions re: digressing my '95 efi 300 by deleting practically everything save the "stopper" in the sink. I'm doing all I can to simplify etc just to make this old truck useable again. My biggest issue to point is that I'm hardheaded & stiff necked. But as I think, imagine and postulate (10$ word there I need to use more often)... I'm wondering... I have 6 fuel delivery items already mounted in my intake... how do I get the fuel metered into the ports without being signaled by an ecm? Or spending x hrs & $s fabbing or installing a carb syphon system...?
Am I correctly thinking that the injector metering is accomplished by the fluctuation of the releasing of the fuel pump pressurized gasoline thru pinhole ports for atomization? (Probably by a needle valve or waffle plate or some such in the injector) And, is this "metering" on a per cyl, per power stroke as needed basis (which I'm thinking is so due to the "pulsating" of signal).
Is there a way or compatibility to using the signal from MAF or Throttle P Sensor to provide the signal to the injector?
To do what the ecm does w/out all the input from all the other sensors, systems etc...
Pressurized fuel would demand timing... so I guess the ecm does that part....... somehow tach signal (no, spark signal would be needed for the timing... that is, spark signal for cyl five signal to #1 inj, cyl 6 for inj 2 and so forth to complete 2 engine revs...[whatever the proper cyl/inj order would be needed] )
 

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER

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Its complicated.
The fuel delivered by the injectors is dependent on the engine speed and load.
And a myriad of other factors like engine temp, barometer, ambient temp, etc.
It is metered into the engine in various amounts by how long the injector pintle valve stays open. It can vary from zero up to about 80% of the time which is generally considered "max flow".
The only way I see of using the existing manifold with injection is to convert it over to a completely mechanical system, similar to many pre-electronic injection systems, like Hilborn, Kinsler, Algon, etc.
This would require the substitution of current injectors with nozzles, a pump, metering valve, and all the other related hardware.

If it were me and I just wanted to keep it running until the truck dies I would revert back to an earlier carb and ignition system. Good luck with your project.
 
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111JESUS

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Wow... I just put the EFI distributor back in it & the thing drove down the street & back... smh... now very poorly but still, before it wouldn't barely untrack in granny on concrete. Feathering the throttle pedal produced the best results... something still bad wrong with the timing... what is the actual function of the spout module.
It idles fairly smooth and no load you can gradual feather up rpms... but no snap throttle at all. Imagine the rotor is spinning normally you throttle and the timing changes quickly thru the rotor/terminal arc zone... the engine sputters, misses badly for a short bit then you can feel engine no power while gearing decelerates the truck... like the timing advanced between plug terminals where spark arc is no longer in fire zone of piston stroke... maybe retarding as the missing sounds more exhaustish than intake... idk YET. But something did improve.
On this efi will you see the tdc mark bounce up/down scale with throttle stroking as with old system? Or does ecm internally compensate and hold mark steady at 10*?
 

111JESUS

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Also I still have the business end of the o2 sensor vice gripped into the open down pipe... sure that data is all skewed... duh. It is tuff bein' poor (in $s anywaysšŸ˜‡). Dad used to tell me that as a warning. He also said he would get smarter as I got older... well, he's gone on to his reward about 10 yrs ago... and he is now looking like an undiscovered " Albert Newton ".
 

bubba22349

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The little spout conector plug is pulled out / (disconnected) then you can set your base timing to 10 degrees BTDC. Be sure to use the correct Dampner timing Mark for this (the thin V line), once you have it set to 10 degrees BTDC just replug in the Spout conector plug back in again. The TFI module is a separate part that supply's power to the coil, and some of the first ones were mounted on the distributor (the early EFI models up to the end of the 1992 model year) the later ones (from 1993 and up) are mounted on a seperate heat sink on the drivers side fender in the rear corner near the firewall (see below post for a drawing of these), since yours is a 1995 it will be this second type of mounting that you will have. The orginal Ford TFI Modules can be either a Gray or Black color so match your color if you replace them, the ECM controls all of the Distributor's timing advance by it timing map after you have set the 10 degrees of base timing. Yes when you rasie the engine RPM's the timing Mark should be moving to show that it's advancing the timing.

Yes your absolutely right not having your O2 sensor mounted in the right position with at least some exhaust pipe lenght is going cause the inaccurate / wrong readings going to the ECM. Dose your other parts truck still have the exhaust Y pipe on it that you can use?

Some other things that caused me some trouble on mine were a loose wiring connection on one of the bank of three Solenoids mounted on the drivers side of the valve cover. I think I remember that it was the first solinod, but it still looked like it was good, until I happened to move that wire connecter and found it was loose it ran so much better with that electrical conection cleaned up and tightened up this made the biggest differance in how mine ran after it was fixed. On mine I also had some bad vacuum lines (the Plastic had deteriated and some cracked too from the years of engine heat I found these damaged vacuum lines first before all the cleaning of electrical and ground connections. Repairing them did improved the engines running but only slightly, but after I had gotten those little issues along with the cleaning and tightening up of the electrical conections all fixed my 1994 ran excellent and got the best MPG it ever had before. Good luck Edited.
 

bubba22349

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Just for referance in this link the wiring diagram drawing is for up to the 1992 model year trucks so it won't be exactly the same as your 1995's wiring since some of the parts are located in a different place such as the TFI Module. See my below post for the correct later wiring diagram. Edited

You can see the location of the Spout check conector though is number C101 listed on about the mid right side and follow its arrow over to it. http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/Speedytimzalez/2010-04-05_183358_rfrfrfrfr.png
 

111JESUS

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For referance in this link to wiring drawing you can see the location of the Spout check conector number C101 listed on about the mid right side and follow its arrow over to it. http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/Speedytimzalez/2010-04-05_183358_rfrfrfrfr.png
What I'm thinking is my spout is mounted on the inside of the driver fender & the little grey plug pulls out of the connector close by. The module I'm observing is gray in color (but according to the schematic image you sent me, I think what I see there is the data or 4abs data module). My distributor does have a flat spot and a bolt hole to secure something to said flat area. There is nothing nor been nothing on the dist since I've owned the truck.
Donor truck is '76 w/351.... f350, I was so surprised when the donor driveshaft fit like a glove after the trans conversion. Some items on this schematic don't match up with my truck. This thing was once a propane hybrid as well... that whole system was deleted before I got the truck. I'm going to focus on the exhaust next... rebuild the y and add the original port from the junk pieces... & install o2 sensor.
 
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111JESUS

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What I'm thinking is my spout is mounted on the inside of the driver fender & the little grey plug pulls out of the connector close by. The module I'm observing is gray in color (but according to the schematic image you sent me, I think what I see there is the data or 4abs data module). My distributor does have a flat spot and a bolt hole to secure something to said flat area. There is nothing nor been nothing on the dist since I've owned the truck.
Donor truck is '76 w/351.... f350, I was so surprised when the donor driveshaft fit like a glove after the trans conversion. Some items on this schematic don't match up with my truck. This thing was once a propane hybrid as well... that whole system was deleted before I got the truck. I'm going to focus on the exhaust next... rebuild the y and add the original port from the junk pieces... & install o2 sensor.
So the spout seems to be a "block" looking connector assy bolted about halfway frt to back drvr frt fender just above the frame...?
 

Bronctopia

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Spout is a Ford contraction for "Spark Out", and is their wiring diagram label for the wire from the ECU that triggers the TFI module to fire the coil at the appropriate timing advance. The TFI is more than just a dumb transistor tho.
If it does not hear from the computer by 10 degrees BTDC, it goes ahead and fires the coil itself.
The little square Spout Connector is really just a jumper. By pulling out the jumper, you are temporarily cutting the Spout wire, so the TFI never hears from the computer. It is then supposed to fire at 10 degrees which you can check (and adjust) with a timing light.
If your TFI isn't on the distributor, it should be on the driver's side fender mounted to an Aluminum heat sink.
The spout Connector/Jumper should be nearby, and the ones I have seen were small (1/2"x3/4") plastic bodied plugs that fit inside a 2 pin, 2 wire connector. These wires are the wiring leg from the ECU, and the wiring leg to the TFI.
 

bubba22349

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Sorry but that wiring diagram I posted was the wrong one for the later model trucks like yours, it was for up to a 1992 year model truck, its going to be a little different than what the wiring is on your 1995 truck. The spout conector plug will be over on the divers side rear corner near the firewall area that's were mine was on the 1994. Here is the drawing of what the TFI Module should look like in this link, and notice that the Red Arrow is pointing to the Spout conector Plug. http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/fordguy4u/2012-02-07_235202_a1.jpg

Your TFI Module was never mounted to the distributor body, Ford changed from the distributor mounting starting on the 1993 up model trucks mounting them over on the drivers side fender, this was done so that the Modules wouldn't get so hot. The TFI Module looks like this one in the link. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mof-dy1075/make/ford/model/f-150
 

111JESUS

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You guys are the bomb! Thank everbody for the patience and experience and info. Found the spout pop out thingamajiggy... identified the spout module, got the timing set to 10*... replug the spout & looks like it self adj to about 16 - 18* idling. It has an intermittent miss that will cause mark to jump 6-8* when it misses.

My exhaust is still open but thinking about some of the class 8 trucks I work on... I unplugged o2 sensor from harness thinking ecm may have a default signal.
I guess it does since it is starting on idle like a champ.

Going to take truck to exhaust shop Monday and get the "y" remade and straight pipe back to muffler. Will have new o2 port welded in @ y junction like original (I think I can get w/in 2" either way of where it was originally... wires will keep me w/in reason anyways).

Now is my come to Jesus meeting time with everbody... an earlier post I queried about my fuel pump, having noticed that at times the eng was starting quicker if I cycled the key several times... well that thought came to light today and I'ma thinking while it's up on the ramps pull the fuel filter and check for water... did not get a single drop of water from it; but when I caught the backflow out of the filter I had a lot of fine black particulates come out. I blow the filter out, backwards, dribble some gas back in it, shake it a bit, get some more black out... blow it out again & reinstall (will have a new one monday) cycled key 4 times started up and tried throttle snap... still cutting out but a significant improvement. So I 'fess up to my failin' to do the rudimentary 1st (feeling all stupid like, twisting my toe on the floor). I do that ever now an again. Glad it was on mine and not on a customer's.

But overall I've determined that the biggest issue that was wrong with the truck was... it was like it's owner, wore out, road hard and put up wet. Bunch of little things confluxing together at close to one time. But all in all I've picked up some new knowledge re: my ford. And some general stuff as well.

I'm confident enough that it will be useful again: to spend the $ on the exhaust. Only the y & about 4' of straight pipe.

Thank you Jesus I lingered on modifying the fuel system.

Anyhows, now I'll still have to figure out my speedo / abs signal issue (per the auto to manual trans conversion).

But here's hoping that me an f-one-fiddy is soon toolin' down the blvd again.
 

bubba22349

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, Congrats on getting it running better. IF you have a volt / ohm meter you might check the condistion of your spark plugs, the distributor cap and plug wire resistance together to see if there is any problem with one of them. I do know of a company that should still have some of the Walker 41655 Y pipes in stock they are not quite as nice of bends as what the stock orginal Ford Y's had but might be at a decent price. Yes I think you dodged a big bullet in not taking all the stock EFI parts off usually making those type of big changes will cost a bunch of Money to get them back running and tuned right. Maybe you could pull out your fuel tank when it gets low on fuel and flush it good to get all those black particles out. Anyway it's great to hear that you will soon have a driving and working F150 again. Edited
 

bubba22349

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This is the story of my miss on the 94 F150 about 8 years ago and how it took me quite awhile to find it. One Saturday morning my truck didn't want to start so was doin some basic maintance of cleaning up the battery posts and charging up the battery, changing the oil and all the filters to get it ready for the Southern California Smog Test that was coming up. In a little while I had it back running again as I was continuing to work on it started missing. After searching a long time I finaly found what was the cause of that miss, there was a loose wiring connection on one of the bank of three Solenoids mounted on the drivers side of the valve cover. I think if I remember right that the first solenoid is for the EGR, second one is for the TAB, and last is for the TAD but still looking at it everything looked like it was still conectted good. Until by accident I happened to move one of Solinod wire connecters and found it was loose don't have access to that truck anymore and can't remember which Solinod it was other than it wasn't the last one. It ran so much better with that electrical conection cleaned up and tightened up snug again this made the biggest differance in how mine ran and the miss was gone after it was fixed. Besides that while I was working on it and searching for the cause of that miss I also found other items that needed some minor repairs, there were some vacuum leaks from the orginal Plastic vacuum lines which had severial deteriorated sections that had crumbled away, others were also cracked in half from all the years of baking in the engine heat. I also continued the cleaning up and checking all of the other electrical wiring conections and ground connections. Repairing all of those did improved the engines running but only slightly, but after I had found and gotten that one Solinod conection fixed the miss was gone and my 1994 ran excellent getting the best MPG it ever had before and it also passed the Smog Test with the very best readings of all the years I had it, I have to wonder how long that that connection was loose. Edited
 

Bronctopia

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You guys are the bomb! Thank everbody for the patience and experience and info. Found the spout pop out thingamajiggy... identified the spout module, got the timing set to 10*... replug the spout & looks like it self adj to about 16 - 18* idling. It has an intermittent miss that will cause mark to jump 6-8* when it misses.

My exhaust is still open but thinking about some of the class 8 trucks I work on... I unplugged o2 sensor from harness thinking ecm may have a default signal.
I guess it does since it is starting on idle like a champ.

Going to take truck to exhaust shop Monday and get the "y" remade and straight pipe back to muffler. Will have new o2 port welded in @ y junction like original (I think I can get w/in 2" either way of where it was originally... wires will keep me w/in reason anyways).

Now is my come to Jesus meeting time with everbody... an earlier post I queried about my fuel pump, having noticed that at times the eng was starting quicker if I cycled the key several times... well that thought came to light today and I'ma thinking while it's up on the ramps pull the fuel filter and check for water... did not get a single drop of water from it; but when I caught the backflow out of the filter I had a lot of fine black particulates come out. I blow the filter out, backwards, dribble some gas back in it, shake it a bit, get some more black out... blow it out again & reinstall (will have a new one monday) cycled key 4 times started up and tried throttle snap... still cutting out but a significant improvement. So I 'fess up to my failin' to do the rudimentary 1st (feeling all stupid like, twisting my toe on the floor). I do that ever now an again. Glad it was on mine and not on a customer's.

But overall I've determined that the biggest issue that was wrong with the truck was... it was like it's owner, wore out, road hard and put up wet. Bunch of little things confluxing together at close to one time. But all in all I've picked up some new knowledge re: my ford. And some general stuff as well.

I'm confident enough that it will be useful again: to spend the $ on the exhaust. Only the y & about 4' of straight pipe.

Thank you Jesus I lingered on modifying the fuel system.

Anyhows, now I'll still have to figure out my speedo / abs signal issue (per the auto to manual trans conversion).

But here's hoping that me an f-one-fiddy is soon toolin' down the blvd again.
Congrats on mastering the timing.
I like this era of EFI for the fact that they left a lot of old school diagnostic flexibility.
Since about 2005 I have replaced every metal gasoline tank I own with plastic.
10%+ ethanol just does not play well with steel for long. Long before a steel tank rusts through you will be battling particles all up in the fuel system like you have found in the filter. The price difference between steel and plastic will be more than made up on longer lived pumps, filters, and injectors.
 

111JESUS

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Well: the struggle continues, finally got the exhaust repaired & timing, spout tab out, is 10* (when idling and tab in, mark on index advances to approx 24-28 degrees idling and only moves a few degrees when throttle up & down)
The attached video is with o2 sensor unplugged (no confidence in this sensor and symptom is the same with it plugged in).
During the snap throttle the timing line does not bounce or waver very much even when the engine is bogging. A lot of times when letting off the throttle to gather it back up and keep running, it will backfire out the exhaust.
I have jumped the neg signal to the fuel pump relay to cause continual pumping (as an override of possible ecm derate).
Previous fuel pressure check was @ 52psi, if I recall correctly. Going to recheck again for possible pressure drop during snap throttle.
 

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Frank

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Well: the struggle continues, finally got the exhaust repaired & timing, spout tab out, is 10* (when idling and tab in, mark on index advances to approx 24-28 degrees idling and only moves a few degrees when throttle up & down)
The attached video is with o2 sensor unplugged (no confidence in this sensor and symptom is the same with it plugged in).
During the snap throttle the timing line does not bounce or waver very much even when the engine is bogging. A lot of times when letting off the throttle to gather it back up and keep running, it will backfire out the exhaust.
I have jumped the neg signal to the fuel pump relay to cause continual pumping (as an override of possible ecm derate).
Previous fuel pressure check was @ 52psi, if I recall correctly. Going to recheck again for possible pressure drop during snap throttle.
You may have already addressed this- fuel filter? The metal inline filter- if not changed recently do that next. If pressure still drops under load the screen in the tank pick up is suspect. Also, check the fuel pressure regulator. With gauge installed, idling (hi vacuum), pull the vacuum line off the regulator, verify pressure goes up.
 

111JESUS

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You may have already addressed this- fuel filter? The metal inline filter- if not changed recently do that next. If pressure still drops under load the screen in the tank pick up is suspect. Also, check the fuel pressure regulator. With gauge installed, idling (hi vacuum), pull the vacuum line off the regulator, verify pressure goes up.
New filter, new regulator (old one was leaking)... thanks. Had not thought of the screen in the tank.
 

BigBlue94

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I unplugged o2 sensor from harness thinking ecm may have a default signal.
I guess it does since it is starting on idle like a champ.
You need the O2 sensor plugged in and working. I replaced the exhaust on my 96 351w a while back. Shorty headers, mandrel y-pipe, and a flowmaster DF50. Against my better judgement, guys convinced me to install an O2 sensor along with it as mine was just hanging up in the frame.

Well I instantly picked up 2mpg (10 to 12) and a bit of giddy up. Without an 02 sensor, the EEC goes into safe mode and creates a rich fuel ratio to keep things from detonating.
 
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