Holley 5200 vs. 32/36 Weber; they aren't the same, are they?

[GoFordBroke]

I have a 2.3l pinto with a 5200, which I just rebuilt. I have a 200c.i. Fairmont with a 32/36 (from a Toyota Land
Cruiser, used complete conversion kit, off of ebay) which I also rebuilt. The 32/36 is a much larger carb: larger venturis and different (larger) baseplate footprint, and different internals altogether. Is my experience unique? Is the carb on the Fairmont NOT a 32/36? The rebuild kits were significantly different from each other, too. What gives.. any ideas? Or am I just dumb as a stump?

 

[bubba22349]

Yes they have several different sizes of Weber carbs the one on the Pinto is made by Ford under lic. from Weber they also make Webers in many other countries so different parts etc. Then their are also some knock off's too.

 

[GoFordBroke]

So is 32/36 the size of the venturis, or is it simply the nomenclature for that specific model of carb? My point is that the 32/36 that I own would seem to flow a group more air than the 5200; if this is the case, then they must not be similar in performance, but all the forum entries seem to say they are. Or am I :deadhorse:

 

[aribert]

On my Weber 32/36 DGV5A the numbers cast into the side of the carb barels imply that the venturi diameters are 26 & 27 mm. Not that I have ever checked them with any type of a bore gage.

FOr a link on where some people go pretty aggresive in modifying the Weber 32/36 (including opeing up the venturi) check out this UK based link (this is a long thread (7 pages) with lots of pictures, also remember that names of cars / engines in the UK & Australia typically are not what we think of): http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread. ... from-32-36

 

[rbohm]

Yes they have several different sizes of Weber carbs the one on the Pinto is made by Ford under lic. from Weber they also make Webers in many other countries so different parts etc. Then their are also some knock off's too.

8) actually the 5200 is made by holley under license from weber, thus the holley/weber moniker.

 

[GoFordBroke]

Holley, Weber, whatever.. I can NOT get the thing to run right. I'm about to put the head, carb and all, on ebay. My idle is all over the place; smooth and low, right off choke, but after a few miles it will NOT idle. I mean erratic, lumpy, occasionally dying. I've got a direct mount 32/36 (with float facing toward passenger side), on a 78 200, .070 off the head, 302H.O. springs, 1- piece retainers, ported and polished, stock rockers & lifters. Also DSII, Autolite plugs, 8mm wires, stock coil.
I performed the Weber low speed checks and adjustments and I'm 4+ turns out on the mixture and 3+ on the speed. I have tried manifold and ported vacuum, retiming, checked plugs and gaps (good color, maybe a little rich, but I haven't really been doing anything but running it to tune it; .049 gap.) I am as lost as a man watching Oprah...

 

[bubba22349]

Is this a used carb? Some times the throttle shafts wear and they just will not idle. Any slop there?

 

[GoFordBroke]

Used, yes, but barely.. less than a year. No noticeable slop, either... Any other ideas? I'm tempted to take it all out and start over, if I knew WHERE to start over. I have , as Jackie Ickx, I believe, stated after collecting the ARMCO, run out of talent. Can anyone think of a baseline checklist to set/adjust as a starting point for further fine tuning? I mean carb jets, static timing, advance, and any thing else that may prevent some form of -cide in the very near future (you know, sui-, or homi-.) Thanks y'all.

 

[GoFordBroke]

ariburt.. bro those guys ARE serious about the little carb.. "as good as a DCOE"??!! Anyway, thanks; very cool esoterica about the .5 fo' barrel. Are you an Aussie forum member.. how did you view all those files? I couldn't get in...

 

[bubba22349]

I have , as Jackie Ickx, I believe, stated after collecting the ARMCO, run out of talent.

As for the Webers there is a good tuning book on them and many user groups on line that would be were to start. I worked with lots of them but would need to see it in person as to how it runs carbs like a Weber can take sometime to figure out. You can also call Redline they setup most of these kits and have all the tuning parts. If you want to start over I would first try a differant carb like a Carter or Autolite / Motorcraft they are much easier to work with. Anybody you know that would let you barrow one to try?

 

[bubba22349]

ariburt.. bro those guys ARE serious about the little carb.. "as good as a DCOE"??!! Anyway, thanks; very cool esoterica about the .5 fo' barrel. Are you an Aussie forum member.. how did you view all those files? I couldn't get in...

They are great carbs I really like them but they can be a lot of work if you are just learning carbs after setup they will last a long time.

No not an Aussie forum member, am in Socal, Ca. But have used and tuned most all types of Weber's. Currently I am looking for a set of (3) Weber 40, 44, or 48 IDF for my big six drag project.

 

[GoFordBroke]

Yeah, the return to stock would require reuse of my stock (unmodified) head since I direct mounted the carb, soo.. maybe I can get away with something less drastic. I have a load of work and money in this setup, so I was thinking about baselines for my situation. Thanks anyway. I have run, rebuilt and modified 5200's on Pinto's for 35 years, but this one has me stumped. I'll figure it out...

 

[aribert]

GoFordBroke:

I have yet to connect vacuum advance to my Weber - mechanical adance is all that I run. I would not be overly concerned about the vac advance until the carb jetting is real close.

What was this carb spec'ed for? Unless it was spec'ed for say a Jeep (or a Ford 200) it is probably ***way*** undersized as to jets. The Weber has 3 fuel circuits - idle, progression and main (this is true for both barrels but the idle/progression tends to be of a very short duration as you step into it to and open up the 2nd barrel). Based on what you mentioned as to where you have the idle mix and idle speed screws - you are deep into the progression circuit. Ballpark idle mix adjustment should be 1/2 to 1.5 turns out.

What are your jets - all of them - primary and secondary? Mains, air correct, idle, accel. Get a maginfying glass - you will need it to read the numbers stamped into the jets. Idle jets are accessible with a flat bladed screwdriver from outside of the carb. The rest require you to remove the topcover off of the carb. THere is a Weber sticky that includes jetting where several people have posted their carb jetting - I would suggest you aim for the midpoint or higher as a reasonable starting point (a few of the carb jetting appear lean or undersized (under performance)).

This carb is used on engines from as small as 1.5L up to about 2.5L+. Those of us that use them on our 200 Fords and the Jeepers that use them on the 256?cid 6 cylinder are pushing the envelope - but then again our engines typically are not high revving engines.

A couple of days ago I swapped out the primary main jet to lean out the primary barrel. I went too far undersize - I could barely drive the car unless I had the choke atleast half way out.

 

[aribert]

GoFOrdBroke:

I have not joined the forum that I posted the link to - I had no problems seeing the .jpgs that were posted directly to the forum. THere were a few (with links) that required being a member. I am considering joining that forum just to as some of the Weber gurus a couple of questions - specifically I want a much longer accel pump (squirt) duration. On the DCOEs that is set by a pump rod. There has got to be something that one can do similar on the DGV. I am guessing that the pump blanking needle is the key - I just don't know what direction to go with it. I was Googling the pump blanking needle when I came across that link.

I would greatly dispute the statement on that the DGV is anywhere as good as a DCOE. I have tripple DCOEs on my Triumph - the sound of an engine sucking air (and fuel) thru six barrels when blipping the throttle is an wonderful sound. At one point I had the sidedrafts jetted such that there would be subtle exhaust pops on throttle lift off (coasting). In town driving - rip up thru the gears and then pop, pop, pop, pop as the car coasted up to a red light - light turns green, repeat.

 

[GoFordBroke]

Aribert

-I'll peek inside the carb and check jet sizes
-The carb was from a kit for the Toyota Land Cruiser.. I assumed the jetting would be much closer since that engine is 3.5l and the 200 is 3.3l.
-You are correct about the DCOE's; I had a Mini Cooper w/a 45DCOE on a short ram and when that baby was breathing.. wow what a sound!
-I played around with lenghtening the pump shot duration a number of years ago.. my method was to play with the linkages. I was able to affect the timing of the shot but I could not increase the volume of the shot. Seems to me, though, that one would be well advised to get the jetting just right before fiddling with the accelerator pump; that big fuel boost could mask a world of problems, like the transition from idle to operating circuits.
-Where do you get your jets? Do you buy them individually or as a kit? What do they cost, generally?
-By the way, thanks for the help...

 

[aribert]

I bought 5 Weber 2bbl carb coress on eBay years ago - I think I paid about $30 for the lot. One of which ended up on my car and several of the others became jet donors. For all but the idle jets, I am quite willing to drill them out to upsize and I have even silver soldered the jet orifice and redrilled when I wanted to go smaller. When I do buy jets, I get them from Dan's Performance Parts - this is a VW parts seller, about $5/jet (where as small number drills and metric drills typically run about $0.40 to $0.70 each at a couple of local supply houses ).

Dan's carries the EMPI line of parts including the EMPI Weber clone (made in China). As much as I try to avoid stuff made in China (I do not trust the durability of CHinese made products), I figure that jets are pretty simple to mfg. http://www.dansperformanceparts.com/bug ... ntake3.htm

FWIW,I use an old narrow band O2 sensor for carb tuning. The narrow band O2 sensor has severe limitations in that it will show lean or rich or close but not how rich or lean. But I have found it to be invaluable.

I would agree that if the carb was jetted for the 3.5L then it should be plug & play- I guessing that it had the stock jetting(say for about a 1.5L) from Weber and possibly that is why it came up for sale - the original owner could not get it to run right. THe link that I posted earlier(the onet hat runs 7 pages long) about people modifying their DGVs, made mention that the more recent carbs manufactured after some shutdown of strike in Spain had an issue and that one of the jets needed to be upsized 2+ steps larger than when using an older carb - I did not pay attention to this - my carb is Italian made.

 

[GoFordBroke]

Wow, it took a while, but my 19 year old stepdaughter has been diagnosed with liver cancer and I haven't really given any time to the cars. I did finally take the carb apart and found 60/70 for idle jets (primary smaller than secondary?) what do you think? Thanks for your time, aribert.

 

[GoFordBroke]

I didn't proofread my last message before I sent it: my stepdaughter is 17, not 19. It's a mess...

 

[aribert]

I was wondering if you had lost interest in the jetting - in light of your stepdaughter's illness I fully understand the priorities. Your idle jets look reasonable but I would consider either a 65 for the primary idle or to swap the primary and secondary idle jets. In my opinion, only a minimal amount of time is spent at idle and if it is a bit rich - so what. What are the jet sizes of the main and air correct for the primary bore?

A little background before I post my jetting below. My carb is rich off of idle and stays that way till about 60 to 65 mph where it transitions from rich to lean. I am using a narrow band O2 sensor so I know rich or lean but not how rich or how lean. Up until last week I thought that the primary to secondary transition was happening at at about 65 mph. Last week I took the air cleaner off, hooked up a tach and observed the carb throttle plates vs rpm. Turns out that the secondary is not opening until about 4500 to 5000 rpm! I do not know the engine rpm at 65 mph but I am certain that I am well under 4500 rpm (my car currently has a 3.20 rear axle ratio). Now I understand why even though I have been opening up the secondary main jet and reducing the secondary air correct jet there has not been a change.

My current jetting (primary only for main/air correct, my secondary jetting is off scale at the moment):
Idle: primary 65, secondary 70
Main jet primary 155
Air correct primary 170
Accel pump jet: started out as 50EW for both barrels, progressively drilled oversize so that now it is 90 (primary), 70 (secondary)

I am not getting as long a accel pump shot as I would like. This winter when I have the carb & head off, I will reprofile the accel pump cam (there appears that there is at least an additional 1 to 1.5 mm of pump stroke that the current cam is not activating. Once this is done I expect to reduce the accel pump jet a bit. My '78 200 head is getting milled and I am going to use a bit of a performance oriented solid lifter cam.

My vehicle has no drive ability issues (no hesitation or flat spots). Fuel mileage is pretty consistent at about 21 mpg for 2/3 surface streets w/ lots of traffic lights, 1/3 highway driving (70 mph). I have the idle set a bit low (under 600 rpm, I had no idea until I hooked up the tach last week) and occasionally it will die on throttle lift of it the engine is not fully up to temp when slowing down for a traffic light.

I am of the opinion that there is still atleast one mpg and a few hp left to be found with even more optimization. I want to buy a wide band O2 sensor/data logger sometime in the future - I am just hold off spending the $ right now.

 

[GoFordBroke]

Thanks, Ariburt. I ordered the whole rejetting kit (about 60 bucks), and should get it in a couple of days. I will start with something a bit richer than yours since I have headers and a milled head; like you said , what's the diff? Why, though, would the primary be smaller than the secondary? Maybe that's why the dude sold it on ebay.. hmmm.. never could get the *** to run right, probably. No wonder. Oh, and my idle jets are NOT interchangeable; they are different sizes entirely.
I'll let you know how things work out; I ordered a distributor spring kit, also, so I'll be refurbishing the dist. also.. one at a time, though!