JD Perf. Double Roller Timing Chain

[Ecovanner1963]

Hello All! I'm New to this site and figured you all would be the BEST people to ask this question to. I purchased the Double Roller timing chain by JD performance, here off the site, and I was wondering if you all feel that the timing marks indicated on the crank pulley, are accurate enough to go by? I have also purchased a cam (already installed) and heard it will perform the best with 4 degrees advancement on the timing. It runs fine now, but I want it to be at full potential, so can I just remove the cover and line the cam pulley dot up with 4 degrees advance on the crank pulley? This is a 170 in a 63 Ford Econoline van, so I have to remove the radiator and lower end pulleys to get to it, and purchase the $20 gasket set. I will do it if its gonna help, thoughts?????

 

[Eric Rose]

Sometimes the balancers will slip. A balancer is just two peices of steel with some rubber wedged between them, so you will probably want to turn the engine to TDC and then make sure that the piston is at the top of its travel.

And what you probably want to do is to degree the cam to be sure the timing keyway on it is accurate as well. Sometimes those can be off depending on who made it.

 

[Ecovanner1963]

THANKS! I guess what I should then ask is Does anyone else have the double roller chain from here on fordsix.com? It is made by JD performance, and they seem to be the only company making it for this? It looks like they are a reputable place. I just don't want to rent all the crap to degree the cam, especially if its running so well now, I just want to know that someone else has found the degree marks on this to be accurate. I mean why would they put them on there if they weren't? AND how much of a difference will I notice with this? I also have a DUI distributor to install today, problem is clearance I think, as I have a van and this distributor is MUCH larger than factory. Anyone put a DUI in a Econo0line Van?

 

[Eric Rose]

Where did you get your cam from? Most people on here who have the Clay Smith cams sold through Classic Inlines say they degree out accurately so the keyway is straight up. Thats how mine was according to the machinist who assembled my motor. Its probably best to check what you have to be sure though, because you could have the 1 out of 1000 that is off.

 

[falcon fanatic]

It's pretty easy to gauge the accuracy of the timing marks. Just pull the #1 spak plug out, rotate the engine to TDC, stick your finger in the hole and you should feel the top of the piston. Keeping your finger in the hole, rotate the engine one way and the other and determine where TDC actually is (It helps to have a friend). Check against your timing mark. Is it right? Great! Is it wrong? Well, get some white paint out and mark where it ought to be. Done!

A dowel can subsittute for a finger when necessary.

 

[Patrick66]

THANKS! I guess what I should then ask is Does anyone else have the double roller chain from here on fordsix.com?

i know some people on here are using them, i havent heard anything about them breaking yet. you can probably find something if you search.

It is made by JD performance, and they seem to be the only company making it for this?

yep

It looks like they are a reputable place. I just don't want to rent all the crap to degree the cam, especially if its running so well now, I just want to know that someone else has found the degree marks on this to be accurate.

a few members have degreed a cam from clay smith (eric for one, and 60'srefugee) both of them said the cam was spot on, so i guess the answer is yes.

heres a little info on headers for an econoline http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=50192&highlight=econoline+dsii

 

[Ecovanner1963]

AHH!!! Now thats what I needed to know, THANKS SOOOOOO MUCH, now one more question, how much difference is it gonna make to advance it 4 degrees? Keep in mind I will be installing the DUI as soon as I can get it to fit. Will this then require tweeking the tining yet again? Yes I have a cam from the site, almost everything I have purchased has been from here, or Clifford. Thanks again for all the help!!!

 

[smokingfalcon69]

You can also make a simple piston stop out of an old spark plug and a bolt, knock the porcelin out of the plug and remove the ground electrod, weld in the bolt, so it sticks out just a little longer than the ground electrod did, then round over the end of the bolt on a grinder. Rotate the engine so #1 cyl. is NOT at TDC,screw in the tool, now rotate the engine until the piston makes contact with the tool, mark the balancer at the TDC line on your timing scale, REVERSE the rotation and turn the engine until the piston contacts the tool again and mark the balancer at the TDC line, 1/2 way between the two marks is true TDC. I'm not knocking the finger method, but I feel this is more accurate. PLEASE NOTE: remove all of the spark plugs so the engine will turn easyer, and turn the engine SLOWLY, you don't want to bash the piston into the tool !

 

[AzCoupe]

NEVER ASSUME...... Anyone can make a mistake. Hence a cam may or may not be spot on. Clay Smith has been pretty good, but I have heard of a few being off, some by as much as 6 degrees.
ALWAYS degree the cam. With Clay Smith cams, advance them 4 degees. Comp cams, and others, automaticly grind in the advance.
A cam is the brains of the motor. Everything else just moves, but the cam contorls the relationship of these movements to one-another. Therefore it is CRITICAL to have a cam that is properly installed.

 

[Ecovanner1963]

So if I did the degreeing correctly the markings on the JD Performance timing chain were RIGHT ON. So I could have simply put the cam gear dot to the 4 degree advance on the crank pulley? So degreeing the cam is the same as advancing the timing at the chain level?

 

[Ecovanner1963]

So no one can answer this Question? Is degreeing a cam the same as advancing or retarding the timing at the chain level? I ask because we degreed the Jack Clay Cam in, and it coincides with the 4 degree advance mark indicated on the crank pulley of the JD performance Double-Roller Timing Chain. So in essence, I could simply have lined the cam gear dot up with the 4 degree advance notch on the crank gear, and called it a day (assuming I trusted the cam was "Spot On")? Just wondering.

 

[Lazy JW]

Ummmm..... the 4º mark on your balancer is almost meaningless for this operation. To do this task properly requires the use of a degree wheel and a dial indicator. Do you have access to these tools?
Joe

 

[Ecovanner1963]

No thats what i'm saying, is it not the same as advancing the timing 4 degrees? We DID degree the cam, and it falls 4 degrees advanced at the same point that the crank pulley gear has markings of 4 degrees advanced. So then would this not have been the same thing.

 

[mustang6]

Cam timing (sometimes called valve timing) and ignition timing are not the same thing.

 

[Ecovanner1963]

So then if when i initially put this together, if I would have lined the cam pulley dot up with the 4 degree advance marking on the crank pulley, what would have happened? That would have been WAY different than degreeing the cam 4 degrees advance? I thought that would be the same? It would then just be assumed that the cam was "Spot On". And I would be relying on the exsiting marks in the timing gear to do the advance for me.

 

[Lazy JW]

No thats what i'm saying, is it not the same as advancing the timing 4 degrees? We DID degree the cam, and it falls 4 degrees advanced at the same point that the crank pulley gear has markings of 4 degrees advanced. So then would this not have been the same thing.

Please do not confuse cam timing with ignition timing; they are completely different things.

You say you did degree the cam, I will assume that you properly used a degree wheel and a dial indicator. At what lift did the 4º event occur?

What does the cam card indicate the lift is supposed to be? Until we know the designed lift/duration of the cam according to the cam manufacturer it is impossible to know where you are.
Joe

 

[Ecovanner1963]

Ok in reading in the other post on degreeing a cam, he ALSO staited that he had the crank pulley tab at the 4 degree advance mark as well. I really want to know that the marks should be this way. The cam pulley dot, lined up with the crank pulley's indication of 4 degrees advance. YES or NO.

 

[AzCoupe]

The answer is NO. Simply sliding the gears on so the 4 lines up, is not degreeing the cam. You must use a degree wheel and dial indicator and follow the steps. Not take short cuts and assume your are doing it.

If you are not going to take the time to do it properly, then line the dots up and be done with it. You will never know if it is installed properly, but it will get it close enough, so the motor runs.

It sounds like you don't understand the process, therefore my suggestion would be to take it to a mechanic and let him do it for you. At least that way you'll know its right.

 

[Ecovanner1963]

No I mean if the cam is degreed properly, then it COULD be the same as if you slide the crank gear on with the tooth of the crank on ZERO, then advanced the crank until the the cam gear dot lined up with the 4 degree advance mark on the crank pulley. IF.... the cam was in correctly, then this would be ok to go by? YES or No. I guess another question would be, if this wasen't correct, why would the marks be on there in the first place? SO.... If the cam is in correctly......and then you aligned the cam pulley dot up with the 4 degree advance mark on the crank (again the gear must first have been installed with the tooth of the crank lined up with zero on the pulley) THEN.....this would be the same as degreeing the cam 4 degrees? YES or NO. This is a THEORETICAL QUESTION. It is not that I don't want to degree the cam with the wheel, AGAIN THAT WAS DONE< BUT NOT BY ME PERSONALLY< AS I HAD NEVER DONE IT I WANTED A GENTELMAN I TRUSTED TO DO IT AND I WAS NOT ABLE TO BE THERE WHEN DONE< I HAD CLASS.

 

[AzCoupe]

THEORETICALLY

YES. Providing the cam was installed straight up, and I don't mean dot to dot. If the cam has a lobe center of 112 degrees, and it was installed with a 112 degree centerline, then that is the correct way of advancing the cam timing. However one normally rotates the cam (and gears), not the crank, until the 4 degree keyway lines up on the crank. This would "THEORETICALLY" put the centerline at 108 degrees.

But before you do this, you need to check with the person who install the cam, to see what centerline he used when he degree'd the cam. He may have already advanced it. Maybe not? It's all guess work until you find out for sure.

Tech article on my website. http://classicinlines.com/cam_degree.asp