Next build phase-Intake and ignition

Jesse73

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Hey guys, long time no posts from me sorry.
Last fall we moved back to Montana from the UP. I used the truck to tow my wife's cherokee on a dolly and we loaded up the car with stuff as well as the truck. Truck did okay, got sort of 12-13 mpg at 60 mph which is really not bad considering the money I have into the whole thing. Got hot pretty often though, I think I need to work on my fan shroud setup and go to a cooler thermostat in the summertime. Been driving the truck a bit here when the roads aren't icy and it has still been fine. This truck is a '73 f100 with a 240 ci.
Current modifications already done include a pair of EFI exhaust manifolds, 2.5 inch exhaust, Chevrolet rocker arms.

Anywho, this spring I would like to get into phase two of engine bolt ons. I think I am going to try this HEI ignition setup

https://performancedistributors.com/pro ... 9-302-cid/

I have poked around the salvage yards here and it is not too easy to find all of the parts for a DS2 setup. I know it is a proven deal, I just think for the time spent I would be happy to shell out for an HEI that is brand new and stick it under the hood. It would be interesting to run before and after opening up the plug gap to see if it makes any difference in fuel economy.

For the intake, I am thinking Offenhauser C with maybe a Holley Sniper 2300 2 barrel.

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_sy ... ts/550-851


I have been really curious about this tech ever since it came around years ago. It would be fun to fiddle around with it and see what I can really get economy and power wise. It would be pretty expensive however. I might simply find a nice two barrel carb and a wideband O2 meter and tune it that way. Actually if I could find a complete carb and air cleaner set with the heat risers and stuff I would be into that.

Besides that stuff I think its just a matter of finding an overdrive transmission and driving it for the season. Maybe next year I will take the engine out over the winter and convert it to a 300 ci using the best of both engines.

Just a little update for you guys!
 

BigBlue94

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I'm running a DUI HEI on mine and love it. Only about 2500 miles though.

AbandonedBronco has a thread here recently about detonation destroying his engine. Theres pics in there about his DUI failing.
 

Jesse73

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Here is the abandoned bronco thread about his detonation issues for those who didn't catch it

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80566&p=625470#p625470

That seems a little frightening. Not much was said about the DUI distributor. Are folks thinking it has gone faulty already? I was sort of hoping to kill two birds with one stone with a DUI. Better performance and also replacing my clapped out stock distributor.


One thing I have been thinking about is the cost effectiveness of a carb vs standalone EFI. Say a guy payed full boat for an offenhauser C intake, about $400, and a reman 2150 carb at say $250, plus a 2 bbl adapter probably make that for a few $, new throttle linkage would be a few bucks as well. So say maybe you spent even $850 for everything from air cleaner to intake manifold. That is the price of only the Sniper EFI throttle body. I'm going to need quite a bit of other infastructure to make the whole (efi) setup work with dual tanks etc. It could possibly be almost twice the cost to convert to EFI vs a 2150 carburetor conversion in my mind. Am I way off base with this line of thinking? I think you could set up a carb with pretty nice driving ability.
 

sdiesel

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You can set up a nice carb for a lot less.
In ur considering, consider the factory 1 barrel intake with efi manifolds. A well tuned Carter or a Weber 36/38, could very nicely fill ur pockets with money and ur tank with gas.
In low rpm pickups with manual transmissions, in other words " real trucks", you know those rigs with skinny steering wheels and opening vent windows, personal experience has taught the C manifold, and 4 bbl is a very modest improvement, if at all over the above mentioned combinations.
Personal I use a fish carb on a one bbl intake. But u probably won't find one of those.
Throttle response is terrifying.
A good Carter will make u smile
The ignition and rocker arms are a very cheap and impressive improvement.
I use the HEI MOdule with a d spark dist very nice setup
 

Jesse73

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sdiesel":30p9bas3 said:
You can set up a nice carb for a lot less.
In ur considering, consider the factory 1 barrel intake with efi manifolds. A well tuned Carter or a Weber 36/38, could very nicely fill ur pockets with money and ur tank with gas.
In low rpm pickups with manual transmissions, in other words " real trucks", you know those rigs with skinny steering wheels and opening vent windows, personal experience has taught the C manifold, and 4 bbl is a very modest improvement, if at all over the above mentioned combinations.
Personal I use a fish carb on a one bbl intake. But u probably won't find one of those.
Throttle response is terrifying.
A good Carter will make u smile
The ignition and rocker arms are a very cheap and impressive improvement.
I use the HEI MOdule with a d spark dist very nice setup

Sdiesel,
Thank you for the reply. I have edited my first post to include the modifications I have already done. I have added EFI exhaust manifolds and Chevy rocker arms to the engine already. Maybe I should look into a DS2 distributor which can be bought at parts stores, with a GM or similar module to fire it? I'm looking more to parts store availability as well as a little performance gain. One thought I have had is finding a stock distributor in good condition to replace my worn one, and setting it up with a CDI ignition box. You can disconnect a CDI and return to the standard points ignition if the CDI fails on the road. My friend has his Willys jeep set up in this way.


I am really thinking about sticking with a carburetor setup. I was just watching a TV show called Roadkill and the hosts were driving a '55 Chevy with Chrysler Hemi power through Hot Rod Drag Week. They managed to kill off the ECU for the fuel injection by jump starting the car. It reminded me why I have never installed a stand alone EFI! A carburetor will still work even if it isn't working correctly. I'm just not brave enough to jump into the EFI yet.
 

Jesse73

Well-known member
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER":2rreccge said:
Jesse73":2rreccge said:
I am really thinking about sticking with a carburetor setup.
amen bro

Yeah. This truck is outrageously reliable considering its humble beginnings with this family. Why do it a disservice? :beer:
 

sdiesel

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As my old 88 has seen the backside of beyond more than he has seen a bath, garage, a decent wax or any other " townie" stuff, the key is reliability.
U did mention that acquiring Ford parts was something of a hit and miss. Ditto.
If the Napa in borrego springs can have one by " oh let's say next Tuesday, with freight, from Saginaw", then I ask for an HEI MOdule, Borg Warner if I were at a car quest, and it momentarily appears before my eyes on the counter.
That I guess why they are called counter parts people.
Nowi exchange my money for his product and place it with care in the glove box where I had a spare I did use, to get me on my way earlier.
Happy motoring!!!

Then there was the time in the Anza Borrego , with the Montero out of cell range with 2 young children and she dies . I'm sure it's the igniter for the coil .no problem I have a spare under the seat .
Now just get my tool box...........that I left in the trailer at the motel 65 miles away. Up scooters Creek with no paddle...
 

Jesse73

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sdiesel":140dqyre said:
U did mention that acquiring Ford parts was something of a hit and miss. Ditto.

Yes, it can be challenging at times. Lots of bumpside and dentside trucks still on the road here, so there are some parts available but people hit the junkyards pretty hard so parts can be hard to come by.

Okay. I had sort of forgotten about the GM module paired with a DS2 distributor. I think I will go that direction for the ignition.

Thinking again on the point of a carburetor setup, sdiesel mentioned that moving beyond a single barrel carter would not be worth the cost and effort. How do other folks feel about this? I was thinking a nice 2150 motorcraft carb and offy C would go nicely with my upgraded exhaust. Plus I could probably find the correct aircleaner from another Ford and set up the vacuum pots to control warm air for the wintertime.
 

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER

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Jesse73":3e59z37b said:
Thinking again on the point of a carburetor setup, sdiesel mentioned that moving beyond a single barrel carter would not be worth the cost and effort. How do other folks feel about this? I was thinking a nice 2150 motorcraft carb and offy C would go nicely with my upgraded exhaust. Plus I could probably find the correct aircleaner from another Ford and set up the vacuum pots to control warm air for the wintertime.
Its a personal choice. I once put a trans shift kit in a DD because I hated the sloppy imprecise shifts. It didn't affect fuel economy or performance appreciably but I couldn't stand the way it drove any more and since I also used it to tow a trailer I knew it would be just a matter of time before the FMX trans would need clutches.

You'll probably have north of $500 on a manifold / carb / exhaust system upgrade, but it will be a totally different animal when you're done with it. And if you save the old parts when you sell it you can recoup some by reselling those upgrade parts.
 

sdiesel

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I did mention the Weber option with the original cast iron intake the Weber being a 2 bbl, or any other 2bbl fitted to hat intake really means the same thing; slightly greater fuel air and I'm reading that some of the clever fellow are modifying the plenum on the beast to increase even further the value of this underrated component.
A different animal indeed....how many times we commiserate with someone who has done the work , and added the fancy to an engine in an application that needs neither fancy or the added go fast stuff. And the disappointed owner is chasing down ideas on how to compensate for the very knowledgeable compromise built into the design , that he eliminated with his hopeful additions.
Hope being a many splendored thing seldom is a good substitute for careful plotting and planning.

These things seldom come to any delightful end. Usually owner ratchets down his flying hopes to realistic expectations before he can begin to enjoy the value of this great little engine.
But if u ratchet UP slowly like u are doing each step is a sure source of joyful pleasure in refining a machine, adjusting it precisely to ur need.
 

pmuller9

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sdiesel":3hjjwz3t said:
Completely agree except for ONLY a 240? Only? Heavens to Betsy....
OK, Poor choice of words.

I trying to consider a nearly stock 240 comparison to a 300 six as far as low to midrange rpm manifold airflow and velocity was concerned.
The 240 is a great engine to work with.

It has a crazy 2.14 rod to stroke ratio which makes it a very good candidate for fuel efficiency.

I also like the idea of the MSD 6A being used with a points distributor as long as the shaft bushings are tight enough to prevent spark scatter.
There is enough past history to show that the MSD ignition provides the best low end torque and gas mileage on the Ford big block six.
 

sdiesel

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Just "funnin"ya.

I am curious about hard data on the MSD .

These box do work in my experience, with added burden of complication combined with expense .
I'm curious as to "the how's and why's" such effect is true over say edis-6 or even a properly tuned DSll, SYSTEm or my current favorite HEI system.
Is MSD really that huge under 3000 rpm?
0
 

pmuller9

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sdiesel":wr3dxa87 said:
Just "funnin"ya.

I am curious about hard data on the MSD .

These box do work in my experience, with added burden of complication combined with expense .
I'm curious as to "the how's and why's" such effect is true over say edis-6 or even a properly tuned DSll, SYSTEm or my current favorite HEI system.
Is MSD really that huge under 3000 rpm?
0
I started installing MSD boxes when they first came out. Of course back then we only had points so there was much improvement every time.
On the last 300 six with the large cam and fully ported big valve head, we added the MAD 6AL to the duraspark system.
Tire spinning torque from 1200 rpm and 17+ mpg at 70 mph, 2400 rpm highway.

F250 restorer has back to back experience with other systems including a different multispark unit and went back to the MSD as the better system.

Black Ford XLT also found torque improvements but never took the time to give MPG feedback.

There are others that gave testimony.

The difference is more about the spark current (not voltage) than the multispark feature.
 

sdiesel

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....meaning,the current is more reliable and consistent ?.
I'd really like to know this and pin it down cause an MSD box is an eyesore on the ...eyes and in my Ford was always in the way of something. But such comments may cause me to revisit the contraption. I bet I can find Dyno tests somewhere on line that would provide details
 

pmuller9

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The spark current determines how well the combustion mixture is ignited.

All of the racecar MSD installations I did put the ignition box on the driver's side of the firewall.
You do not have to mount the box in the engine compartment.

If you are going to use the magnetic signal from the distributor to trigger the MSD box then use a twisted pair cable to minimize interference since the run may be longer than usual.

Dyno tests do not necessarily correlate to low rpm response or engine efficiency at low rpm.
Also the MSD ignition does not operate in multi-spark mode during the majority of the dyno test.
You are looking for street driven comparisons.
 

Jesse73

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So my friend John has a MSD hooked up to his stock cj-5 f-head 134 with a stock distributor. Basically from my recollections he has the ignition hot to the box instead of the coil, and then the signal from the distributor to the box instead of the coil. Or something like that. So in theory and practice I suppose a guy can switch the wires back to their original home and go back to stock points setup if the MSD box ever fried. He keeps new plugs with a stock gap and runs larger gap plugs for the MSD. It starts right up I will say that much.


I need to look at the wiring, but maybe a guy aught to use a DS distributor (larger diameter distributor=better?) with an MSD and for the backup plan carry a GM module in the glovebox? Might be too much wiring to switch between the two for practical purposes.

I wish I could get some dyno time around here, it would be awesome to see the torque curve down low with and without distributor mods. I guess you could see some difference in carburetor tuning on the street?
 
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