All Small Six Removing timing chain

[shreqshack]

I need some help figuring out how to get the timing chain off. How do I remove the remaining bolt ....Here is where I’m at right now. See pic. I’m reading the manual but it is not much help at this point.

 

[bubba22349]

You could use a block of wood between one of the crankshaft counter weights and the side of the block to stop the crankshaft from turning then a socket with a ratchet handle or breaker bar should be able the loosen the last bolt in the camshaft center. Good luck

 

[shreqshack]

You could use a block of wood between one of the crankshaft counter weights and the side of the block to stop the crankshaft from turning then a socket with a ratchet handle or breaker bar should be able the loosen the last bolt in the camshaft center. Good luck

I got the old timing chain and gears off and put on the new gears and chain. However, It looks like the the timing marks/dots are off a little....see picture. Is this okay for a stock motor????

 

[bubba22349]

No thats way to far off try changing your it by lining the dots up correctly and then turn the camshaft to line its key up with the gears keyway. Looks like its off by at least one + teeth, I don’t think it will even run that way if it did it would be running very well. Good luck

 

[shreqshack]

Here is a picture of the timing marks on the old chain before I took it off

No thats way to far off try changing your it by lining the dots up correctly and then turn the camshaft to line its key up with the gears keyway. Looks like its off by at least one + teeth, I don’t think it will even run that way if it did it would be running very well. Good luck

I am way in over my head on this. I need help. How do I begin to fix this. Is this hard to fix. Anyone willing to do a FaceTime call with me on this? Please help

 

[bubba22349]

Ok start by taking the chain and gears off again. The crankshaft looks like it is in the right position key way at about 2:00 o'clock were it is now. Put the crank gear on and then cam gear without the chain and line up the cam gear timing mark so as to match the crank gear timing Mark turning only the camshaft when the timing marks are lined up notice that the crankshaft key way and the camshaft key way are also pointing straight at each other same as the timing marks do. Now pull off the cam gear again without moving the cam's position, now slide the crankshaft gear back on its key about 1 1/4 inches. Install the chain and cam gear on the crank gear holding up with the cam gear to that 2:00 o'clock position with your hand so the timing marks are still both lining up. Slide them forward together until it's starting onto the camshaft key and end of the cam then install the cam bolt loosely and continue pushing the gears forward so that the cam gear slides all the way on to the camshaft as well as its key. Tighten up the cam bolt to its torque spec, if you didn't move the cam it should now be correct. Take a picture so we can verify that it's right. Good luck

 

[B RON CO]

Hi, as Bubba said, the crankshaft looks good, but the cam gear needs to turn counter clockwise just a little bit.
I use blue locktite on the cam bolt. Was the cam out, or just the timing gears? If the cam was removed I would double check to make sure the "wedding ring" spacer is behind the retainer plate. Also the timing chain should have oil or assembly lube before the timing chain cover goes back on. Good luck

 

[chad]

#1
Y R U doing this?
#2
I believe U have lost the timing events and need to degree in the cam.

Plez tell me the totality of what U have done from the begining so I can help get U back to Zero.
This is not a knuckle dragin, neanderthal venture but actually quite scientific and precise. We can get U there but - no questions w/the answer imbeded in it. U must start at the begining w/"xxxx is the problem. What are some reasons for it? What are some of the solutions?" UR starting us a lill in the middle & this can go on 4ever (we've gone 50 posts and pages of entries) & not solve the original problem. Remote diagnosis is difficult, this can simplify it...

 

[shreqshack]

#1
Y R U doing this?
#2
I believe U have lost the timing events and need to degree in the cam.

Plez tell me the totality of what U have done from the begining so I can help get U back to Zero.
This is not a knuckle dragin, neanderthal venture but actually quite scientific and precise. We can get U there but - no questions w/the answer imbeded in it. U must start at the begining w/"xxxx is the problem. What are some reasons for it? What are some of the solutions?" UR starting us a lill in the middle & this can go on 4ever (we've gone 50 posts and pages of entries) & not solve the original problem. Remote diagnosis is difficult, this can simplify it...

I am responding to chad's post -

#1 YRU doing this?
I started this task to replace the timing chain. It was more lose than It should be and needed to be replaced. Otherwise, the engine was running fine prior to this project.
#2 I think you are right - I have lost the timing and need to degree the cam. I have no idea how to do that? I was hoping to try what Bubba proposed above and hope for the best
I was careful not to move either of the crankshaft or the camshaft when I took the timing gears and chain off. SO I was surprised to see that it was off when I attempted to put the new gears and timing chain back on. At this point, I have not touched the position of the camshaft or crankshaft.

 

[shreqshack]

Ok start by taking the chain and gears off again. The crankshaft looks like it is in the right position key way at about 2:00 o'clock were it is now. Put the crank gear on and then cam gear without the chain and line up the cam gear timing mark so as to match the crank gear timing Mark turning only the camshaft when the timing marks are lined up notice that the crankshaft key way and the camshaft key way are also pointing straight at each other same as the timing marks do. Now pull off the cam gear again without moving the cam's position slide the crankshaft key back about 1 1/4 inches. Install the chain and cam gear on the crank gear holding up the cam gear to that 2:00 o'clock position with your hand so the timing marks are still both lining up and slide them forward together until it's starting onto the camshaft key and end of the cam then install the cam bolt loosely and continue pushing the gears forward so that the cam gear slides all the way on to the camshaft as well as its key. Tighten up the cam bolt to torque spec, if you didn't move the cam it should be now be correct. Take a picture so we can verify that it's right. Good luck

Thanks Bubba - I going out now to work on this.....thanks!! This is a challenging project for me but it helps to keep my mind off all the crazy stuff going on in the world. Let freedom ring!

 

[B RON CO]

Hi, since all you did was remove the old timing chain set here is what you need to do.
Remove the cam bolt and slide the two sprockets out until the timing chain comes off.
Put the cam sprocket back and turn the cam a little counter clockwise until the marks line up.
Remove the cam sprocket, install the chain and slide the two sprockets home.
Somehow the cam turned a little bit and now must be turned back. Not a big deal.
Good luck

 

[shreqshack]

Ok...How does this look... I tightened to 40 ft lbs

 

[chad]

what process did U use to determine the chain had stretched? Do U know actual miles on it?

"...I was careful not to move either of the crankshaft or the camshaft when I took the timing gears and chain off. SO I was surprised to see that it was off when I attempted to put the new gears and timing chain back on. At this point, I have not touched the position of the camshaft or crankshaft..."
My concern (cam/crank no longer "coordinated") is lessened. The 2 gears slide off (tight fit) simultaneously to
get off. 'On' is same way. Ck a vid as it is difficult to grasp (mentally) ina book. Carbs, rear end gears, and this-here-trimming-thing are the most precise of the automotive operation. Guys above guide U well. Last assembler degreed the cam 4 U...
U can ck by turning engine w/o spark plugs and viewing a screw driver @ each bob up'n down. Depending on where U R U can verify valves same way - visually, as HB or other method is used to rotate motor...an important learning experience~

 

[bubba22349]

You got it right on the money, the crankshaft only needs to turn back Counter Clockwise just a couple degrees for the timing dots to line up perfectly so its not really going to change anything now. Good job your now ready to re assemble the timing cover leave all the bolts loose, next install the crankshaft Dampener then you can tighten up the timing cover bolts. After that your ready to reinstall the oil pan. Edited

 

[shreqshack]

I may go ahead and turn that back just a little bit so I have it perfect thanks for all your help

 

[bubba22349]

Turn it back if you want then take a picture! What I was trying to say is the crankshaft and camshaft is now timed right and the relationship of the two timing marks is only going to match up when the engine is setting on TDC on the number 1 cylinder. You would need to have a degree wheel to see that or else install the timing cover temporarily along with the crankshaft Dampner than set them to the TDC mark than remove them to check the crank and cam timing marks are lined up.

 

[wsa111]

I know its hindsight but why didn't you use a JP double roller timing chain. They are available from Vintage Inlines.
As Bubba said, your present installation looks fine.

 

[shreqshack]

I know its hindsight but why didn't you use a JP double roller timing chain. They are available from Vintage Inlines.
As Bubba said, your present installation looks fine.

I am fixing the car up on a low budget. Didn’t want to spend the extra cash for the double roller right now

 

[shreqshack]

I think I figured this out... I had to step away from the project for a little while. I don’t think I removed all of the last crankshaft seal.... which may explain why the new one won’t fit. I feeling a little dumb right now

 

[drag-200stang]

Yes you have to remove the metal part of the seal.