Ticking lifters on cold start

[Scotty67]

Hi All,

I have a '67 Mustang, 200 cid with about 153K miles. The engine is in very good condition, no leaks and very clean.

Recently, I've noticed a loud ticking on startup that goes away after 1 or 2 minutes (or as soon as the revs go up). Tried an oil and filter change on the weekend (10W30), but it still did this again this morning.

Since this only happens on a cold start, I'm worried that I'm not getting enough oil pressure. Not sure how good the in-dash oil pressure gauge is, but it always seems to run close to "L" and only ever moves up to between 1/8 and 1/4 of the range during normal driving.

Any advice would be appreciated!

 

[addo]

Hey Scotty, can you be sure it's not an exhaust leak? They often have a "ticking" noise people can confuse with a collapsed lifter.

 

[Scotty67]

Hey Addo. It definitely sounds like it's coming from under the valve cover, likely above one of the cylinders nearer the firewall end of the engine and it is in rhythm with the rpm.

As soon as the engine is given enough rpm (or is left on fast idle for a couple of minutes) it goes away, which is what is leaning me in the direction of the oil pressure.

 

[rbohm]

8) the first thing you want to do is put a good mechanical oil pressure gauge on and see what your actual oil pressure is at idle. it should be at least 15psi, 20 is better. if the oil pressure checks out ok, then likely you have a little dirt in a lifter or two, or they are worn enough that they leak down more than new ones do and need a bit more oil pressure to fully pump up.

 

[sasktrini]

They started using hydrolic lifters by then? I suspected solid lifters.

Adjustable rockers? Maybe some tweaking is necessary to tighten up the valvetrain.

What about using 10w40 (if everything else looks okay)?

 

[fordconvert]

In theory the 10-30 and the 10-40 are both 10w when cold so that should not make much difference on a cold start.

If they are solid then an adjustment is likely needed.

Minor exhaust leaks will also often tighten up as the engine warms.

If it is a lifter you could try something like seafoam to see if it will loosen up but I would not count on it.

 

[Jim-Iowa]

Could be the lifter leaking down while sitting.
First thing I would try is putting a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil in the crankcase and see if that does'nt clean it up.
When they first went to Hydralics a whole industry was developed around oil additives.

 

[Jim-Iowa]

I should have mentioned I use MMo in every oil change and as a fuel additive. Also keep it on my work bench in a squirt can as a penetrating oil. BTW I don't work for them, just really l like the stuff.

 

[Jim-Iowa]

They started using hydrolic lifters by then? I suspected solid lifters.

Adjustable rockers? Maybe some tweaking is necessary to tighten up the valvetrain.

What about using 10w40 (if everything else looks okay)?

Detroit started using Hydralic(SP) lifters in the mid 50's.
Oil available then did not work well with them and would sludge up the lifters. I have torn down engines in the 60's & 70's that had so much sludge built up that the rocker covers were full of crap(I MEAN FULL). We used to hose them down with a garden hose to wash out the crap, then change the oil?
one a 70 Ford belonging to my wife's grandmother(she did not drive like an old lady) was so bad and had had nothing but one Very popular brand of oil in it that I have never bought another quart of it.

 

[powerband]

It does take a while for the oil to reach the valve train after sitting. If you hear the lifters ticking when you first start, after @ 15 seconds, try shutting it off for @15 seconds and then restart. If the lifters are quiet at the restart, the lifter galleys are just draining when sitting and it takes some time to get enought oil to fully fill the hydraulic lifters/galleys. This works for me in the '63 - If I hear ticking, usually the shutdown, little pause and restart clears it right up.

I don't worrry too much about ticking on startup, just the clanking and knocking ... 8)

Have Fun

 

[Lazy JW]

.....

What about using 10w40 (if everything else looks okay)?

NO! NO! NO!

Think about it; at cold startup, oil pressure is HIGHEST due to the fact that it has the most resistance to FLOW. Oil pressure drops as the oil warms up; what we need upon cold startup is more FLOW, which we will get if we use an oil that has LOWER cold viscosity.

A good 5w-30 synthetic will flow more quickly during this crucial phase.
Joe

 

[Lazy JW]

They started using hydrolic lifters by then? I suspected solid lifters.

Adjustable rockers? Maybe some tweaking is necessary to tighten up the valvetrain.

What about using 10w40 (if everything else looks okay)?

Detroit started using Hydralic(SP) lifters in the mid 50's.
Oil available then did not work well with them and would sludge up the lifters. I have torn down engines in the 60's & 70's that had so much sludge built up that the rocker covers were full of crap(I MEAN FULL). We used to hose them down with a garden hose to wash out the crap, then change the oil?
one a 70 Ford belonging to my wife's grandmother(she did not drive like an old lady) was so bad and had had nothing but one Very popular brand of oil in it that I have never bought another quart of it.

Let me guess, it came in a yellow bottle?

I too have seen the "jello mold" of sludge completely filling valve covers. This is not a result of poor quality oil, but rather is caused by poor crankcase ventilation. Even knowing this I still cannot get myself to buy oil in yellow bottles.
Joe

 

[Jim-Iowa]

Well I was not going to say, but you got it!! That was used from the day it rolled off the lot new. And after that mess it was filled with Quaker State till the day it died. I was not aware that Crankcase Ventilation was the real cause.

 

[sasktrini]

.....

What about using 10w40 (if everything else looks okay)?

NO! NO! NO!

Think about it; at cold startup, oil pressure is HIGHEST due to the fact that it has the most resistance to FLOW. Oil pressure drops as the oil warms up; what we need upon cold startup is more FLOW, which we will get if we use an oil that has LOWER cold viscosity.

A good 5w-30 synthetic will flow more quickly during this crucial phase.
Joe

Okay, that makes sense... I guess I'm recalling advice from long ago when dealing with low compression issues... I'd be inclined to think our old engines wouldd require thicker oil (probably incorrectly) unless it was newly rebuilt.

Good discussion! And funny! You guys have a way with words!

 

[MustangSix]

Hi All,

I have a '67 Mustang, 200 cid with about 153K miles.

The issue is probably related to wear in the lifters, pushrods, and rockers. After this many miles, the lifters will probably show some sign of being concave instead of convex. In addition, the pushrod ends will show signs of wearing into the rockers. All of this can add several thousandths of an inch clearance to the valvetrain that causes a "ticking" until the components warm up, expand a bit, and the slack is taken up. You might be able to crutch along with various oils, but the real issue is mechanical wear.

Pull the rockers off and closely inspect everything. If you find some wear in the pushrods, chances are the lifters will be worn too. These are simple engines to work on, so a lifter replacement is not that difficult, although you do have to pull the head. The cam will likely be just fine, but I would change the timing chain too.

 

[Lazy JW]

.....

The issue is probably related to wear in the lifters, pushrods, and rockers......

.....You might be able to crutch along with various oils, but the real issue is mechanical wear......

Agreed.
But the sooner we can get flow, the sooner it will quiet down. And the sooner we will prevent additional wear.

This is partly why newer vehicles specify thinner oils such as 5w-20, etc. The new fuel injection systems are so reliable that we get almost instant starts regardless of how cold the weather may be. Very, very few carbureted engines will ever start instantly and keep running at 20º below zero; therefore they had a few re-starts to get oil flowing before actually continuing to run. Modern engines rarely fail to start; quick oil flow is vital under those conditions.
Joe

 

[69.5Mav]

Joe

Agreed. I'm just lucky I guess. My 69.5 Maverick 170 take two pumps to prime and starts instantly ( hold key in start less then .5 sec.). I am planning on putting in a pre oiler that I bought some time ago when I get a chance.

 

[ponyrider200]

Another thing you should be thinking about is the accelerated wear due to the lack of zinc and phosphorus in today's oil. These ingredient are crucial to preventing wear to the lifters and cams in a flat tappet engine. I have seen what lifters look like on engines that have less mileage than yours, and it is not a pretty sight. All of us should add 4oz. of assembly lube with each oil change to add back the zinc and phosphorus missing rom modern oils.

 

[Scotty67]

Thanks for all of your tips and sharing your experiences. Hopefully, I'll have some time this weekend to check things out further.

 

[Scotty67]

Tested the pressure and it seems okay. Added some rislone on the weekend too, so we'll see if that has any effect over the next few weeks. Unfortunately, the outdoor temperature is dropping, which I'm sure won't help.

As long as I'm not damaging anything further, I'll keep driving until I get a chance to look at the lifters.