turbo and propane

xctasy

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Jay Storers Propane Performance book covers 95% of everything you need to know, even though its a 1985 book.

The other source is the Impco Technical Service Bulletins from 1984 on wards. Those two books had massive input by the late Ak Miller.

Since most success is based on understanding systems, the Hugh McInnes Turbocharging book and the 1995 Alterantive Fuel Performance book will get you started.

Principal problems occur when risk averse people try to screw up the simplicity of Propane with the complication of Gasoline and Gasoline EFi.

The trick to making a turbo propane engine work is by accepting the post 1987 fuel injection systems, and piggy backing the fuel enrichment off a known good six cykinder turbo system luke the Syclone or Grand National or TTyoe or V6 Supercharged Thunderbird Super Coupe. If it has a working 3 bar Speed Density EFi system with programed CCC TFi or EDIS ignition, your propane concersion life will just need one or two upstream Impco Mixers with no Liquified Propane Injection needed.

If you do want uostream Injected propane, you can add another seperate injectir rail fir it somewhere, either twin injectirs, or six, and rub the fuel trim off another auxilary computer, or a twin table CPU/ECM. Ford did this un Australia, but not with the Turbo Barra, only the propane Intech and dual fuel Barra non turbos.

Wax in the bulk storage and for propane reticulation makes Liqifued Propane a little tricky to keep clean. It is hard on spark plugs and exhaust valve seats and doesnt have the same power under boost as gasoline...there is no cooling, so ignition and fuel air mixture must be tightly controlled to avoid over rich, over advanced states of tune.
 

xctasy

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benchracer":1irhlpf0 said:
thank you. By up stream do you mean draw-through?
No, it would still be "blow through". Speed Density supports that if the MAP sensor is amended to suit.
 

pmuller9

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I would prefer to maximize engine power for a given fuel and don't like to lose a lot of power from a change in fuels.
Propane has about 91,000 BTU/gal apposed to E10 gasoline at 112,000 BTU/gal so you are already down around 20% in energy content.
When you inject propane upstream in the intake manifold air is displaced with gaseous fuel which further decreases power.

If the liquid propane can be injected into the ports air displacement can be minimized plus the Heat of evaporation takes place in the combustion chamber which lowers combustion temps.
If the engine is dedicated to propane the compression ratio can be upped one point to help recover some power as compared to gasoline.

The Stoichiometric Combustion Ratio of propane is 15.5 which is close to gasoline at 14.7 or E10 gas at 14.1
What is interesting is that peak power for propane is about the same as gasoline being just above 13:1
I can see an EFI system with a wide band O2 sensor maintaining precise control of propane injection.
The liquid propane fuel rail pressure would need to be boost regulated for turbocharging.

sdiesel mentioned an outfit that could provide a system that would retrofit the stock 4.9 six

Would like to hear more comments.
 

MechRick

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There were some F150 trucks with EPA and factory approved conversions using Impco stuff.

I've worked on GM Topkick liquid propane trucks. The technology is interesting. The conversion consists of a high pressure fuel tank, pump and fuel lines, propane injectors, a stock PCM (possibly with a propane-specific tune) and a resistor shorting out the two pins of the engine coolant sensor (propane doesn't need to run richer when the engine is cold).

Roush has done quite a bit of R&D on converting Modular Ford trucks to liquid propane injection.

https://www.roushcleantech.com/fuel-system-overview/
 

sdiesel

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its a neat fuel.

AK Miller did a lot of work on it too.
so am i, though not at that level .

for my purpose a 425 mixer and blow through at 8 psi is enough to slightly compress the fuel so there is more air mix.

there is no need for an intercooler at that psi, and propane likes warm air anyway, so boost is very simple. Timing no so. The best i have found so far is the mega jolt /EDIS 6 combo. with some kind of knock sensor. Propane in gas form likes advance.

with the Impco 425 to go higher boost is a troublesome exercise. the mixer will only accept 8 psi without disrupting its balance.

here is the website of the local expert in high tech conversions.

http://www.wolffspecialties.com/
 

xctasy

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pmuller9":c1slj8y4 said:
.....
When you inject propane upstream in the intake manifold air is displaced with gaseous fuel which further decreases power....



This is like the Excess Fuel Factor in a Nitrous Oxide Engine, or the needed Fuel Enrichment in a Presure Boosted engine.


The Displaced Gaseous Fuel volume is about 17% on a plenumb filled LPG carburetor engine. It has Displacement due to the gas boiling at a very low temperature, and it also stays in the intake tract, and that s able to make a very probable rich mixture back fire if the ignition advance, or intake heat is high enough.

In my three installs, I removed the venturis to ensure the upper plenumb allows gas to expand during the "boiling" or vaporizing phase. Then I made steps to reduce the total intake runner volume to less than 50% of the engine capacity. That normally ensures unused gas back-up is kept unlit in the intake tract. Very important if you are running a turbo to feed a silicone diaphrammed Impco CA 300, where the material needs replacement just like the old Zenith Stromberg CDS 150/175's did on British, German or Swedish cars like Jag XJ6 and 12s, Benz 250C's, or Volvo or Saabs without Fuel Injection.

The boost of the upper intsake of a Port EFi truck or car is easily serviced by the old Speed Density System, rather than the MAF or VAM system, but those work as well if the Amos Ring or Gas Valve carburetor system is employed, which can be Power Valved by an Impco EC-1 system with a feedback to one of the stock 02 sensors. Wide band is very good here, and MegaSquirt can run both the TFi, EDIS6, or an gutted Durasaprk II with a three one ring on the front crank and a three wire sensor.

When boosted, the stock CA 300 A5 with a 432 cfm rating can make 270 hp, with 325 from the E or L series LPG Converter, which is very old technology, but extremely reliable and reasonably space efficient. The 328 cfm version can yield 205 hp, so both are able to take a 128 to 165 hp stock engine, and boost it to 9 psi with a 1.61:1 effective boost ratio back up to 205 to 270 hp with reliability. The VFF30 safety vac lock-offs and Torodial spare wheel fuel tanks and line running are space efficient, and safe, and the installs are simple and fun to do.

When you step up to driving the carb fuel delivery of LPG to a Port EFi engine, you then have to keep peak advance back, and control air fuel very well so you done lean burn, or rich burn...the turbo LPG has a very narrow threshold of air fuel, and its the lean backfire very similar to what happens with a nitrous engine with no Excess Fuel Factor, that always torches down the stock cast alloy pistons.

Pistons can be old forged TRW's with slot oil control, but have to be TIG welded up, and the oil holes drilled, and the peak advance and air fuel tightly reigned in like a bunch of bad thugs. Knock sensor feedback to cut timing to 20 degrees total under presence of any knock for a permanent duration is important. 3 Bar MAP sensors are great for profiling the air fuel tables.

The old EECIV's and Delco Calpacks can run every aspect of the fuel curve, the Aussies did this for many years with the 302 Fords and 304/308 Holden and Gen I/II 350 or whatever Chev engines.

The 17 % fuel expansion, and the 50% total intke volume and knock retard and tight electronic air fuel for a turbo install are non negotiables for me. And basing it on an EFi gasoline engine that its dual fuel is another. American Port EFi engines, especially Ford ones, are basically the best set up in the world. Adding a second fuel rail is possible, but you then have to say good buy to the best propane mixers that Impco, OHG, and Century have made in the USA. The latest EFi Propane injection systems say yes to a lot, but no to some really good, simple stuff that works great on a turbo install.


I turboed my 1980 Cortina 2.3 Cologne V6 with the same LPG setup I used on my 4.1 liter X flow Falcon.

XE250XFLOWWITHIMPCOCA3001OF2.jpg
XE250XFLOWWITHIMPCOCA3002OF2.jpg


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The parts are of exceptional quality that comes from mass production.
 

pmuller9

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If a turbo application narrows the threshold for lean condition I would want better control than using a diaphragm mixer.
Being limited to power is also not desirable.
Port injection gives far better control and removes the restrictions associated with a mixer.

Yes port injection is a lot more involved and costly but I feel it is worth it.
Port injection will also allow a variety of fuels to be used.
 

pmuller9

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MechRick":1afbfcbl said:
And we all know the definition of a flammable medium in a pressurized container...
Yes! and is one of the most important considerations.
 

sdiesel

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was it a nervous laugh?

like
"there but the grace of god go i?
why did i laugh my face off that was someone elses trouble, shouldnt be funny,

amazing how much prep can be bolluxed in 2 seconds. its also amazing that so few were prepared for fire.


also funny how clumsy, fat white boys can be... a towell fer peets sake....
did you see that guy slump into the ditch spraying retardant every where? haha thats funny
 

sdiesel

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pmuller9":3145q6o4 said:
If a turbo application narrows the threshold for lean condition I would want better control than using a diaphragm mixer.
Being limited to power is also not desirable.
Port injection gives far better control and removes the restrictions associated with a mixer.

Yes port injection is a lot more involved and costly but I feel it is worth it.
Port injection will also allow a variety of fuels to be used.




i get this, kind of.
using a wide band and knock sensor with megajolt i should think will mitigate the hazards ?? i have not read or heard wihere this is a problem and by strict timing control does not that problem have no chance to get started?
the port wet injection is an exciting development and easy to do with no fabrication. but expensive and with a turbo i would think very complicated program

xctasy has given me a gift of information. im surprised the 300 has that kind of balls. its just about right for our 5.0 liter inlines. which is beneficial from a space standpoint. big power from what is essentially a weekend conversion. i can even use my favorite intake : the factory one barrrel.

EECiv using twEECar or quarterhorse, might tame the beast maybe he is saying we can use fords program with propane; unclear what he meant by that.
fascinating information for me to research.
on a ranch truck with 70 usable galons behind the cab, and low boost at $1.69 US a gallon, and 230 hp, i should be singing a song.
 

pmuller9

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Be looking forward to your progress.
Make sure the head gets hardened valve seat inserts and Stellite exhaust valves.
If you want to go a step better use Dura-Bond 70000 series valve seat inserts and Inconel exhaust valves.

Here is another simple solution.
viewtopic.php?p=598023#p598023
 

benchracer

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read it and got lost? looking to go propane 11 to 1 com. how much air(hp) will a efi manifold flow? Hope to use a ca300 mounted sideways
 

pmuller9

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benchracer":2xvlayu1 said:
read it and got lost? looking to go propane 11 to 1 com. how much air(hp) will a efi manifold flow? Hope to use a ca300 mounted sideways
The EFI intake normally supports 150 hp and I'm confident it will handle 250 hp.
What rpm range are you looking at?
Ported head?
Which camshaft?

The other thread starts with plans to break down liquid gasoline to Methane, Ethane, Propane and Butane the idea being you simply fill up with pump gas as usual and convert it to dry gaseous fuel as you go.
Right now the focus is on refining the Bourke engine which operates in the detonation mode and is highly efficient.
 
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