why are we forced to re-create the wheel?

[Anonymous]

With the fundamental block and concepts now 40 years old, why aren't there more Turbo/Super Charger kits for the likes of our 200's?

You can find complete turn-key kits for the modern modular engines, and you would think there would be more out there for these classic engines.


I've unfortunately seen the bug growing, and haven't yet been bit, but I'm sure its coming. Is the only option to custom design a power-adder install, or is there someplace which sells the tubing, headers, turbo and piece parts (or likewise brackets, pullies, SC, etc)?

Clearly designing and building your own system is the best scenario, but if you don't have welding skills, or access to some of the custom tools (to make the Carb box) are you limited in what you can do?


I'm not going to be doing anything for a very long time, and am just looking to get a handle on what all of the options are.

 

[Asa]

supply and demand
no group (of sufficient size) had demanded anything like this, so no one has produced one

that's changing now, but that's the simple and quick answer

 

[Anonymous]

That's what I figured.


This thread has alot of good info so I can start to understand all the issues around this sort of project

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28140

 

[xctasy]

The reason wasn't because there were no kits, there really where a heap of them. It is for other reasons that the Ford I6 has had a 20 year hiatus.


There were lots of 'turn key' kits from early 1972 up to about 1984. (Ak Miller Enterprises in America, NormalAir Garret in Australia).Then the oil 1982 oil glutt killed the need for Turbo speed. The old turbos were often draw through, and rather basic, but a few blow through kits with Ak Millers TC-1 boost controller were seen on 200's, 250's and 300's. There was supposed to be a propane revolution in 1983, where Ak Miller Fairmont 2.3 Turbos were being made in good numbers, but after the Arabs turned the oil supply on again, and after 4 years of little sucker Escorts, X-cars and K-cars, everyone traded up to LTD's, Caprices and the odd Diplomat!

The real death of the turbo was when F1 racing bailed out of turbo engines in the late 80's. It kinda made everyone look at quad cam engines like the ZR-1.

With that, everyone looked at the reborn V8's and pretty soon IROC's, ZR-1's and 5.0's were capturing Americans minds. The newer turbos like the Dodge Conquest, GTO and SVO's and the last Escort EXP Turbo's never took off like they should have because you could buy a Firebird GTA or IROC or LX 5.0 and do low 15's, high 14's all day. With most of the grunt that you got in the early 70's, but without the hassles.

In Australia, the bolt on Turbo I6 kit survived until 1988, and then the mini recession killed off turbo kit makers like a black plague, with AIT and Bensons gone. Lots of little guys went bust and then bought cheap US brand, Tiwanese made hi po gear for there old 302's and 351's. Suddenly, people wanted that good old V8 sound, and turbo sixes were no longer common.

The best inforamtion on turbos and sixes was definately in the 1980 to 1990 era, with heaps of valuable info peppered into magazines.

You Americans have just rediscovered the turbo, and the addiction has bitten hard!

 

[mustangsix2]

why buy a kit when it's possible to do without one?

 

[Anonymous]

its more fun and satisfying to make it and design it yourself, liek a hobby.

Learning how it works makes it easier to work on when problems occur, and no one knows you vehicle better than you. Thats the way i like it. You can see every piston moving every other part in the entire vehicle that you put together move in your mind.You know what to tweak and you know what not to tweak.

Its the joy of it, but that is me, others are different and thats perfectly fine.

 

[cfmustang]

Ah, but there are many people like me who would be able to install a bolt-on kit, but not be able to fab up a kit themselves. I know my limitations (time, skill, whatever). Now, in working on my car I have learned a lot but I have also gotten very frustrated and almost quit a few times (and that was on something seemingly much simpler that creating my own turbo setup).

i.e. welding up the plumbing from the exhaust manifold to the turbo, etc. I have no idea how to do it or tools necessary to do it. However, if a bolt together kit existed, that would be a different story.

Then there is the research involved. Many of us would like to be able to install something proven rather than best guess if the parts will work together optimally.

 

[jamyers]

Seems to me that one of the pains of going turbo is in carb tuning for pressurized conditions.

Why not use a pull-through turbo, like the Buick V6's did with their Quadrajet carbs? Mount the turbo/compressor up behind where the carb currently sits, so the compressor is blowing straight into the manifold, you could put the carb in front of it. Or you could turn it sideways, have the turbine to the side and pull the fuel/air in from across the valve cover, maybe even use a side-draft carb.

Your exhaust plumbing to the turbine would be a little longer, but the intake side would be extremely short. If you could figure out how to flip the exhaust manifold over or make your own header, the exhaust side would also be very short.

Either way, wouldn't tuning the carb be a lot simpler?

 

[addo]

In terms of contemporary approach, I still think you're trying to hang a door before fixing the jamb.

Work out how to manage both fuel and spark delivery first. That will not only benefit forced insuction types, but N/A as well.

It's undeniable that the renewed interest in turbos is substantially due to hot imported cars. Why make a half-baked copy using old-tech? In other words, I see the first kit interest being in a full electronic interface to a variety of ECMs.

Regards, Adam.

 

[MandarinaRacing]

...It's undeniable that the renewed interest in turbos is substantially due to hot imported cars.

And to me that's bad! Even if you're a V8 fan, most people instantly assume that turbos are for Fast and the Furious wannabes...and that adding a turbo is like cheating...or is simple and takes no skill. :roll:

Alex

 

[Asa]

and that adding a turbo is like cheating...or is simple and takes no skill. :roll:

Alex

and?
i see no problem

"no fair, you had a turbo!"
"junior, i told you that before we raced, now gimme my money"
"no! you cheated!"
"jimmy, break junior's legs"

 

[addo]

Alex, I don't disagree.

What I am saying is actually to get away from the idea that is's simple. Embrace the challenges of doing it right. Document the work; that'll frighten the ricers. They're (collectively) the bolt-on mindset, albeit starting from a position ahead of us.

Speaking on behalf of (too many) blue-collar careers, if you make it look simple the public think "I can do that", and lose respect for your own skills and pricing. That can readily be extrapolated into turbocharging an old six.

Regards, Adam.

 

[xctasy]

I agree with Alex, but if its chemical or via a vane turbo, its 'supercharging', and if that's cheating, we have lots of lovely cheats here, and I like the best cheaters here.

Alex, gimme you Nitrous bottle. Linc 200 and Does10's, take off your turbo and send it the my place . Bad boys! :nox:

Addo, the funny thing with our sixes, is that the more you share, the more you simplify the process, the more you reveal the tricks of beating cost barriers, the less people do it. So being frugal is more like forcing people to focus on what would I do for every dollar.

A (good) engineer is someone who can do for 10 cents what any damn fool can do for a dollar. Falcon =Cheap= Smart. The Falcon I6 was designed as a throwaway engine in a throw-away car. Well, it really backfired into the old turbo impeller, didn't it!

We've been taught that respect is earned by smart but expensive aquirements, and we all see the merrit in expensive bolt ons which reek 'quality' and 'class'. Lets be frank, a good D8, 2V, ME or alloy head is the right step to performance, because dollar for dollar, a developed turbo will consume as much funds. But a turbo can be built up over time, and on budget with the help from people here...whop share!

One important note though. Over the history of the hotted up automobile, the analy retentive have ruled the race track. Eg Ohio George Montgomery had really smart gear...he found out how to get everything cheaply and then spent the next 10 years dragging everyone off with home-made mag supercharger cases and engines with exotic inclusions. With stone age charriot chassis 41 Williys ending up under 427 cubes of SOHC V8 in a fibreglass Mustang.

When we look at I-Sixes, WE mock everything our society gravitates towards...namely mass consumerism, being in with the trend, and following the in people.

There is something totally subversive about a 40 year old engine being put together with love, care and carefully saved dollars, kicking the ass of fast fours and V8's.

One well aimed turbo bolted to a 200 will create a wave of funny sideways looks, but the results speak for themselves and are time honoured by 34 years of history. Check out the early copies of the Turbo book by Hugh McInnes dating back to the early 70's. Holden 186's with 2.3 times the power, and pictures of old 250 I6's with turbos.


Hello? Cheap is good, it puts turbos, multiple carbs, nitrous oxide, superchargers and great gearboxes right in reach. Just like the old days of 34 Ford flatties.

 

[kirkallen143]

Well said, very well said.

Kirk

 

[Anonymous]

Even if you're a V8 fan, most people instantly assume that turbos are for Fast and the Furious wannabes...and that adding a turbo is like cheating...or is simple and takes no skill.

That pisses me off badly!!