why so low rpm

john-dickjr

Well-known member
just looking threw the post on here and i noticed that very few take the 300 over 4000 rpm, even the one that are built up a tad, what is the reason, just asking cause i have been talking to some old timers and they used to run the 300 motor back in the day and they where cranking some serious rpm and not hurting the motor, im taking 8000 rpm range, i don't plan on that high but im not scared to wind it up to 6500, i have the arias piston with a .150 dome, the head will be milled don and the deck zero with a o-ring , head will be fully ported and worked and the cam will be pretty nasty solid of course this is a 90 % drag motor, i do realize that the 300 has a huge stroke of nearly 4 inches but come on...
 
I think the old timers were either putting you on or only telling you part of the story. There is no way a stock head is going to flow anywhere near enough to support 8000 RPM. You can probably open it up to flow that much but it's going to kill the low RPM performance if you do. They just forgot to mention that.

With only one or two exceptions all of the modified 300s on this site are very slightly modified and have stock bottom ends. The combination of long stroke and short rods puts some hellacious side loads on the pistons and those side loads increase as the square of RPM, so low RPMs are generally a good idea. By and large most people are running heads with minor clean-up porting and cams that are in the RV to mild street range with improved carburation and an upgraded exhaust. Instead of the HP peaking at 3400, it peaks at 4000-4500. No point whatsoever in going higher with the equipment they have chosen and for the street, it's generally a wise choice.

If you really think you want to turn those sorts of RPM, spend the money on a long rod conversion, your engine will thank you. Forget about all the dwell at end of stroke stuff you read about long rod conversions. The gains are real but not really significant. If you are going to turn mega RPM, the conversion is worth doing simply to reduce the side loads on the pistons and to reduce the acceleration/deceleration at the ends of stroke. Clifford at one time offered a set of 1.1719" CH pistons for use with 240 length rods and a 300 crank. It improved the rod/stroke ratio from 1.560:1 to 1.707:1. That is a very significant gain but still shy of the 1.75 generally recommended as optimum.
 
8) in the old days when racing, those that raced the 300 would turn as much as 8000. for the street though 6000 is about the limit.
 
I ran a short rod engine before in my old car, it ran real good, low 12's in a 3000# car @ 7000 rpm threw the lights, small bore (4.005) ... But StraneRanger is right, the long rod (240 rod short piston) is the way to go for big RPM's... A lot of the old timers ran that way back then... But if you got the pistons already, don't spend a lot on after market rods, get some stock 300 rods and a good solid cam ...
 
john-dickjr":2t8vm785 said:
.... im taking 8000 rpm range, i don't plan on that high but im not scared to wind it up to 6500...

At 6500 rpm you can spend a pile of money on fancy rods for oh-so-very small gains. A set of carefully prepped stock rods will do 99.9% of what you truly need, if you want that last nth degree then spring for some 240 rods and custom pistons. Only you can decide if it's worth it.
Have fun,
Joe
 
Or you can prep a set of stock rods, build it for 5500 RPM max, make 2/3 again as much HP as a stocker and have it live forever. It all depends on how much you want to spend to get what return.
 
john-dickjr":2kg4x7mt said:
just looking threw the post on here and i noticed that very few take the 300 over 4000 rpm, even the one that are built up a tad, what is the reason, just asking cause i have been talking to some old timers and they used to run the 300 motor back in the day and they where cranking some serious rpm and not hurting the motor, im taking 8000 rpm range, i don't plan on that high but im not scared to wind it up to 6500, i have the arias piston with a .150 dome, the head will be milled don and the deck zero with a o-ring , head will be fully ported and worked and the cam will be pretty nasty solid of course this is a 90 % drag motor, i do realize that the 300 has a huge stroke of nearly 4 inches but come on...
The main limitation for these engines is airflow, Its doubtful that you can port a 240/300 OEM style head to feed a 300+ inch engine turning that RPM, and still be making power. If you have access to an AJ Billet head or a crossflow head, that would be different. You will need at least a 300 CFM intake runner to still be making power for that big of a cylinder to go beyond 7000 RPM to be able to justify it. I've built many inline 6 drag engines for Comp Eliminator racers, and have found that when you go beyond a certain limit, whether its RPM or HP output, your engine is only as strong as the weakest link. Since you still have relatively stock components with the exception of the pistons, I wouldn't turn it any harder than is necessary, anything above that and your just making noise, and a potential mess all over the race track.
 
look at some of the faster motors, then look at the cam they are running and the gears in the rear...310 degrees dur..600 lift and 4.88 gears that 6800-7500 rpm range
 
159 cube four bearing Falcon 144 with six Amal carbs and revs to 8400 rpm. That's why you'd rev an engine past the power band. Especially if the competiton was a 155 cube Flathead V8 Ford. This is the history of hydroplane Ford engines, absolute examples of why you'd over rev an engine which couldn't pass 5500 rpm in a 1960 Falcon XK 2000. Similarly, the old race 240 and even 330 cube engines based on the Ford 300 blocks. These engines were messed with in the most insane ways, with port on port carburation and injection, canted valve heads, and long rod concoctions with reject Ford V8 aftermarket parts. Suddenly little Mavericks and Altereds started doing scary stuff at US drags. Same in Australia, where little 208 cube stroker I6's used to do 12 second quarter miles in stock 100" wheel base sedans. Today, 250 cube sixes are the hot property in little Fox sized Cortinas or Fairmonts, simply because the proverbial crap is wrung out of them with high lift cams and great breathing heads.

Years of racing has proven that the engine which revs less to produce the hp wins the race. That is efficency in its truest sense. However, the capacity, rod ratio, head design and bore spacing of the engine interplay with this, so you have 6 liter alloy chevs beating Ford DOHC Romeo and Windsor engines, and Chrysler 340 and Ponitac 455's suddenly making much more power than they should, often taking out 351c's and 460's just because the designs allow better power at lower revs.


The point with our Six cylinder engines is the same as comparing low tech LS Chevy small blocks with Ford DOHC V8's. Each might yield 400 hp, but at different rpms with slightly different manners. Or perhaps comparing a modern 4-valve Toyota 4AGE with a Mini Cooper S a-series engine or older two valve per cylinder Lotus Cortina 1558 cc engine. Both might yield 126 hp, but the A-series might have to run to 8500 rpm to get that, or maybee a six DCOE carb quad cam 4 liter Lamborghini that yields 375 hp at 8000 rpm but an inferior 4-bbl 4.1 liter Falcon six might yield 375 hp at 7500 rpm.

If you cary extra rpms and capacity, then you can always make more power. Power is always PLAN.

Power is HP
P is PRESSURE
L is stroke Leverage
A is the area of the piston
N is the number of cycles the engine has


Comparing apples with apples, a 400 hp 5.4 Ford 32 valve engine might make power at 5250 rpm, with a 5900 rpm the top engine speed. For a 5.7 liter Chevy LS to do the same, it has to rev to 6000 rpm for power, with peak revs upwards of 6600 rpm. The Ford dohc is roughly 30% more powerfull in terms of specific power than an alloy chevy.

For example, the Chevy engine produces better specific fuel consumption, but not better specific power than the Ford engine. It revs 11% higher than the Ford, and takes 6% more capacity, and revs to a level 14% more just to get the same Hp figure. For every horse power, it requires more revs (N) and more capacity (A).

The key manner to finding how many revs are required to make more power are how much port on port 'carburation' an engine (how many square inches of port area at the gasket face)has, and how much specific BMEP pressure the engine can garner. You'll find that the 630 to 650 hp NASCAR 5800 cc and a TransAm 5000 or Formula 5000 engines based on the old canted valve or angled valve Detriot engines are second to none under race conditions. It may be that a Cosworth DFV might make 600 hp with less capacity but it has to rev more to make up the difference.
 
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