HP Crisis

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62Cometman
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HP Crisis

Post #1 by 62Cometman » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:00 pm

Gentlemen I've come to a discerning conclusion, 1# I don't have enough horsepower, 2# even if I do the 250 swap i have planned I'm still going to be making sub 200 hp to the wheels, short of boost or a VI aluminum head I don't see that changing anytime soon. Maybe switching to a newer fuel injected 6 is the way to go. Has anyone toyed with the idea of installing a ford barra motor from a new falcon into one of our older cars? Is it possible without major modification to the firewall or front radiator support is there enough hood clearence? I think it'd be fun to pop the hood and show off a newer six that can make some serious HP instead of being stuck with my low HP woes :cry: , Im honestly just shooting for the mid 200s and anything more than that would be a plus.

Do you guys have any other ideas?
1962 Mercury Comet 170 ci, 2.77 Trans, 3.10:1 7.25 rear.
She ain't fast but she's fun. 8)

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chad
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more, more - Y?

Post #2 by chad » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:22 pm

trips
EFI
super charge
our NO forum
& on~
BUT...
what's the end application ?
:twisted: :arg:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

67Straightsix
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Re: HP Crisis

Post #3 by 67Straightsix » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:02 pm

If you really want to replace the i6. How about 2.3 eco boost, 310hp. It would be different and reliable. It's available from ford as a crate motor. The down side its pricey $$$.

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Re: HP Crisis

Post #4 by bmbm40 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:27 pm

The barra motor sounds really good for an exotic build but could that get pretty expensive? Would a 250 turbo get close to what you want?
66 Bronco-1970 250, NV3550, DSII, 4 turn ps, uncut, 1" bl, 2.5" sl, front disc, twin stick D 20, 30 x 9.50
NEXT- direct mount 1.08 on D8 head, power brakes, rear limited slip, 3G, electric fan, electric upgrades, custom curved DSII, header, 31" tires

'81 F150 4x4 300

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Re: HP Crisis

Post #5 by Econoline » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:55 pm

67Straightsix wrote:If you really want to replace the i6. How about 2.3 eco boost, 310hp. It would be different and reliable. It's available from ford as a crate motor. The down side its pricey $$$.


+1

It's getting cheaper all the time

I don't need all that HP myself, the 6 is a nice stout torque motor. Fuel injection would be nice. Turbos etc, i don't want to go there, but if I did... ecoboost
Respectfully,

Seth

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Re: HP Crisis

Post #6 by xctasy » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:06 am

SFT

Sara Frost Turbo


Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tycmBJLs6Qw

A nice little 58/62 B1 Borg Warner turbo outa do it for you.

Located in Arden, North Carolina, BorgWarner Turbo Systems is the leading global supplier of turbochargers for diesel- and gasoline-powered passenger cars, light trucks and commercial vehicles. A pioneer in turbocharging technology since 1952, BorgWarner Turbo Systems continues to lead advancements in the industry with innovations designed to improve fuel economy, reduce emissions and optimize vehicle performance.


xctasy wrote:extra shots showing how easy it is to relocate a turbo to the drivers side.

first the exhaust header to turbo pipe

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On the induction side, you can go from direct mount, Offy or even a Full House system like Paul Knotts.hIS 1961 Falcon race car made 280 hp at 6500 rpm with just a 4 bearing 170 and some six runner tubing flanged bolted on to the stock intake runner.


He used the 1962 XM Ford Falcon 170 "Blattman" ( and later Lynx Engineering Australian) idea of welding a plate on a cut -off early log head, so your good carbs could be bolted up. Here are three HS6 1-3/4 SU carbs on a 170

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Paul Knott used the same base with three DCOE 45 Webers.

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But Partick66 soldmy66 got it all nailed down for the price of a few welded 1-9/16" tubes for three carbs

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That's it really. Three carbs gives you the potential 100% plus horspower boost (with the right cam and ignition). 2 times the stock 72 hp net at the flywheel.

The right turbo gives you the boost ratio. For a 9 psi boost on a stock engine, you'll get 1.6 times thre power (60% boost).

The cam has to be about 264 degrees at lash duration with perhaps 450 thou lift on a nice wide lobe center, but 72 hp would suddenly become 230 hp with good induction fueling, and a good turbo with a good cam.

I'd use three YFA Carters like JD's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Msck2ZSK-Qk




They have a range of jets and metering rods that would allow you to get the fuel air ratios right.

Or other simpler carb options

or SuperKONR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFo1e9maQzI

or javier's 2-bbl and turbo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8UZovFKX78


I get 188 hp from my twin cam 152 cubic inch in line six with Varaiable valve timing, dual intake ruuners, eccs spark control, 4 stage auto.

Modren stuff is really held back by very bad engine mapping to produce long term durablity. Underneath all this crud is really a Skyline GTR turbo engine trying to make 600 hp....

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Grab your Speed Daddy dual out header

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and make a y-piece and run it Turbo 2.3 style under the bellhousing to feed a driver side mounted Borg Warner turbo.

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Grab a 2.77 T5 trans adaptor, and bolt up some real power.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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'racing' - looks & sense?

Post #7 by chad » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:45 am

the 144 turboed seems right,
may B even the 170,
but use the multi carbs alone on 200/250,
back to turbo for the 300?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: HP Crisis

Post #8 by rocklord » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:02 pm

Here you go:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-4-0L-24V-B ... ig&vxp=mtr

Barra182.jpg


182KW (240HP) automatic with ECU

The intake manifold may interfere with the driver's side shock tower. You can notch the shock tower or
make new engine mounts to shift the engine over to clear the shock tower.

Good Luck.
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Re: 'racing' - looks & sense?

Post #9 by RichCreations » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:08 pm

chad wrote:the 144 turboed seems right,
may B even the 170,
but use the multi carbs alone on 200/250,
back to turbo for the 300?

I am not thinking boosting a 4-main engine is a good idea...

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Re: HP Crisis

Post #10 by powerband » Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:52 pm

Do you guys have any other ideas?
A few for NA and forced induction (usa) 250's

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have fun
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Re: 'racing' - looks & sense?

Post #11 by xctasy » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:44 pm

:mrgreen: :thumbup:

RichCreations wrote:
chad wrote:the 144 turboed seems right,
may B even the 170,
but use the multi carbs alone on 200/250,
back to turbo for the 300?

I am not thinking boosting a 4-main engine is a good idea...


I have trouble figured out how any turboed 5 main bearing V8 survives.

And a Supercharged four main bearing 225 Slant six, or an offset ground stoker 268 Slanter.

Or a 280 hp 4 main 170. Turbo's reduce critical crank loads compared to reving the whee out of it.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: HP Crisis

Post #12 by gb500 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:58 am

ok here is a size comparison between a ford Australia barra 4.0L six and that well know other ford motor - windsor V8.

very tall engine with the overhead cams and VVT stuff on the top

i know of NO conversions into the small engine bay falcons ie 60 to 66.in australia

there are a few into the wider engine bay 70 onwards falcons.

Image

here is the dimensions for the australian ford 250 (and late australian 200-same blocks just differnt stroke and rods to the aust 250) from an australian industrial engine catalogue:
Image

and the Australian - 188/221ci.

Image

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Re: HP Crisis

Post #13 by chad » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:42 am

thanks, never realized the size differences...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: HP Crisis

Post #14 by 62Cometman » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:10 pm

Thanks, for all the replies guys, i did some "soul searching" over the weekend and have decided that i will likely go with a boosted 200 option or possibly a 2.3L boosted option i know the older turbo coupe motors are good for 400+ ponies reliably though they can get pricey but what is money right? Thanks GB for the info on the barra motors i didn't know they were that large in size, id rather stick with something that would be easier to fit without having to redesign the car from the engine out.
1962 Mercury Comet 170 ci, 2.77 Trans, 3.10:1 7.25 rear.
She ain't fast but she's fun. 8)

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more HP

Post #15 by chad » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:20 pm

"...i will likely go with a boosted..."
there's a forum here for that -
did you think about the alu head (HP to excess)?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: HP Crisis

Post #16 by xctasy » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:42 am

There is nothing new since Henry Ford. Don't ever race to junk any I6....The physical weight of complication, even in aluminum and even with a clean bill of OBDII and Tier VI health, isn't worth religuising the dog bone to the river.

Everyone else is chasing the low hanging fruit, with increased size and control systems to attempt to make the 4 cycle engine meet those all important crash and econo-emission-bridge-abutment tests. Adding a few extra inches deck height, a few extra inches in the cam cover also makes the engine take on an insurmountable aspect compared to the trim, taut and terrific example of thrown together late 1950''s 18 month crash course technology.

The Ecoboost is rough, strident, and thus needs copious quantilies of insulation, electronic throttle, and won't take any performance increases before Ford voids the warranty.

Great engine, just not for a Round Body Falcon, a car that feeds vibration through every surface like a its some kind of tunning fork artform. It needs an I6.

2.3 Argentine Falcons and Taunus SP's are some of the roughest driving cars around because of the EOA 2.3, and direct injection needs specialist time in a padded room to quell its tremour -ridden ways.

In a car like Kelly and Wills SVO Mustang, its great,

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread. ... -fox/page2

Done and dusted for a while....done by the Mclearrans of http://mclearranmotorsports.com/
The 4-cylinder EcoBoost 2.0L engine makes 240 to 252 bhp and 260 to 270 lb·ft torque, depending on the calibration, it goes down to 220 hp and 245 lb-ft on 87 octane. In a 3600 pound Aussie Ford Falcon it takes 6.5 seconds to get to 60 mph, in the Volvo S60 and V60, about the same but its got even less power and torque in the Ovlovs. Best power is in the Focus ST
Image
Will and Kelly are the real deal
Past drag conquests are the turbo Fox 5.0 V8,
a virile 18 pound boost, 450 rwhp plus 10 second 4.1 I6

and now 16 pound I4. Just the crate Turbo 2.0 Ecoboost....


but its still not a smooth engine. Good thing is, the 2.3 Lima "EOA" based OHC was never smooth either, so who cares?

I6 Falcons are smooth, expecially the little 170's. The Barrs I6, it''s high mounted cams twist the whole body on startups, and in on off throttle, and they require a heck of a lot of work to do better than a 5.O.

There isn't a 4 stroke piston engine more compact for its capacity than the shallow deck 170 and 200 I6....its 0.622 inches lower than the 188/221 Aussie I6 in gb500's pictures above.

All the latest Quad Cammers are ding bat designs.

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Gosh I loved your post gb...https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11450905.

I will never have another OHC engine...done with the crap. There is nothing advanced about carrying more rev's to make power. I made myself pretty unpopular a while back...one guy extolled the virtues of the BA Falcon. Mate, that engine ruined the chance of making it package the Aussie funded T6 truck, and the whole car just went up in weight like the XA, XB, XC did in the 70's. There was no 6th Generation RX7, XD, XE, or Fox body moment at Ford Australia, it was just Tickford 24 valve tech from Jag and Aston Martin.

The message we learned from Henry Ford was to simplify, compact, and add more. The guy ditched in line sixes for V8's, and the whole idea wasn't actually anti I6, it was pro-"more engine in less space".

The direct injection and 4v per cylinder can be made to fit a pushrod "dancin knitting kneedle" engine...Brain dead farts at Mercury Marine and GM just keep dredging up space inefficient Cammer engines like those two henous monstrosities above. The innovation was Ford's back in 1966, the first SOHC FE's were designed to be 32 valve, but it all got so political. The OHV Weslake 32 Valve, the Chevy aand Ford Dominion 32 heads, Arao 32's, they all have failed to materialise because Ford did such a great job on all Cammer Mod Engines.

Ford actually controls 4v head technology, thank G""d. Not GM, not Nissan. The technology is designed to waste space, because Ford has access to maing it cheaper simpler, and the existing base is around. The cost is over investment casting the rocker gear, not anything else.

Ford agonsizd over the same thing in 1989 with the Romeo V8 and its Quad Cam 4.6....the FVPR OHV 32 Valve head was Ford patented, and run in production form via the SVO, then canned when Ford had is Desert Storm/MN12 era budget shunt.

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Ford pulled out on the 32 Valve GT40 intaked FVPR heads.



As was said during a heated debate on 4V per cylinder drag bike legislation banning them...
monstar-head-indeed-Mr George Bryce wrote:The only people that will tell you a 2-valve is just as good as a 4-valve – and there are people out there that say that – they are either covering their bases, protecting their own interests, have their own personal agenda or they don’t know what they are talking about.


So we can all want something else in the other pond, but what you've got is the greatest little engine right there.

Just one US made turbo, and a simple triad of carbs and some proper ignition, a cam and it'll and it'll beg for a slushmatic or T5.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: HP Crisis

Post #17 by 62Cometman » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:21 pm

As always X i appreciate your honesty and info, though i don't fully agree with you its nice to see a varying perspective, if i knew anyone in the area that would take on the project of chopping off the log intake and welding a plate on in its place i would jump on the opportunity and i feel most of my issue would become second thought, such isn't the case here in my little slice of the country.
1962 Mercury Comet 170 ci, 2.77 Trans, 3.10:1 7.25 rear.
She ain't fast but she's fun. 8)

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it's tq not HP anyway...

Post #18 by chad » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:38 pm

nonada turbos above went thru the logectomy
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: HP Crisis

Post #19 by xctasy » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:20 am

Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel wrote:The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history




62Cometman wrote:As always X i appreciate your honesty and info, though i don't fully agree with you its nice to see a varying perspective, if i knew anyone in the area that would take on the project of chopping off the log intake and welding a plate on in its place i would jump on the opportunity and i feel most of my issue would become second thought, such isn't the case here in my little slice of the country.



Log removal is NOT required. Anytime you have the carbs situated at the feeding zone, all you need is enough fuel. Air flow is assured when its not bending through seven 90 degree bends.

Don't get me wrong...I love 67straightsix's (and Fast64Ranchero, JTTurbo, Big Al the Hackmiester, who's tool of choice was also the Sawzall).

You know what? On just 200 cubes, I'll bet 67straightsix's engine will be a shoe in in at 400 flywheel hp.

Image


Man, that's an engine!

But Logectomy is not needed at all when you move to the Offenhauser method of fuel delivery. The elimination of the bends to the cylinders, that's its sole advantage, and on all Ak Millers early creations before he was forced to turbo charge and propane everything to meet California emissions, all his early efforts were multiple carb weld on or bolt on adaptors, and he'd go right up to rwhp figures of, oh, I don't know, 115 hp with Twin SU's, 125 with four Kehins, and well over that with his best Offenhauser bolt on creatings, culminating in the Mavi GT 250 CUBIC , his last Tri Power concept car, and that was a stout sub 15 second car with just forged Jahns pistons, a 480 lift, 280 degree at lash cam, and he took care of the block short fall via the custom pistons. So that cheap, effictive technology makes a lot more horsepower than a flow bench would indicate.

FordSedanDelivery copied Ak Millers 250 build, and got 14.39's at 99 mph.

I think its all about being a Ford Six disciple, and following the text book US I6 engines that ACTUALLY worked.

I still have trouble understanding how anyone can bolt a 200 Ford Autolite 1100 or 240 Ford Autolite 1101 center carb and two tiny 85 hp Holley 1904 144 carbs, and suddenly get 14 second quarter mile passes from such tiny little carbs with so little carb venturi area. That goes all against everything I know about port injection and Independent runner carbs.

You know what? I don't know sh!+!

But thats the lesson of all those 60's to early 70's Tri Power Ford sixes. The log head wasn't as much of a dog if both the 2V 250 head and Tri Power produced the same results.



I do shake my head a little bit given how much advanced engineering existed in 1960 to make just 156 hp at the flywheel from 156 cubes. :bang:


Its not about agreeing, its about benchmarking something that will work for you, that you can do, where you are. Genius is about copying something that works, and not telling anyone about it.


There is no one here whos done a Round Body Barra or Ecoboost. Its probably easier to book yourself on a proposed space travle or Moon Mission than to do the specific engineering work required to get them to run in an unsuited frame that never took those engines. I have seen an EA CFi 3.9 liter engine in an early Falcon, and it fitted okay. There is an Aussie Speed 4-bbl that makes sapce to fit the Barra engine, but its a basically way bigger than a 4.9 EFI truck engine, with less capacity, 4.08" bore spacings instead of 4.48, 9.22"deck rather than 9.8, worse conrod ratios, undersquare, and weighes the same as an Iron 4.9 Carb 1-bbl engine.

I've seen a few 300 Ford round bodies...its just some PowerBand style 250 firewall hammer work, and then talk to Frenchtown Flyer about what sort of carbs you'd like to run.


But I do want to encourage! :mrgreen: :nod: :thumbup:


To make 200 rwhp, with a T5, that would just need a lowly 170 with simple induction up grades and a turbo. 253 hp is the magical value to make 200 rwhp with a 5 speed and an 8" inch axle.



It seams the things Ford USA rushed into and did fastest, lasted longest.

If you want horsepower, get this...and a turbo. You don't need no 4 cyl engine or DOHC Barra...

Image



If you want to "out do" yourself, three Holley 94's or Stromberg 97 2-bbls with opened out holes.

Three NOS Offenhauser 223 Ford or 235 Chevy 2 bolt 1-bbl 2-5/8" to 3 bolt carb adaptors slotted for three Stromberg 97's.

You would be better off making your own short 1/4" plate alloy adaptors and using countersunck cap screws, and then opening each outer hole up to 1.5" via a better iron tube like soldmy66's. All this stuff is around, and buying it is cheap. Modifiying it to work, even cheaper.

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http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NOS-Offenhauser- ... yB&vxp=mtr

Its looking more an more like half Ak Millers Glasspar G2 special 1960 V8 engine.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=76330
xctasy wrote:....
I'm an Ak Miller advocate, he started out on the crazy Glasspar G2 Special with a "352" stroker 283 Chevy with 4" bores, 3.5" stroker crank, and six Deuce Stromberg 97's for 315 flywheel horspower net

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That's Twelve 23.8 mm venturis of 15/16ths, or 8.28 sq inches of carb venturi area on a 352 cube engine.

42 cubes of engine for every square inch of carb. He made 972 cfm at 1.5'Hg work within the confines of the low hood. 162 cfm of Stromberg 97 2-bbl, six times. 229 cfm at 3" Hg each.

Miller was a six cylinder kind of guy generally, but was a total V8 die hard in terms of aspiration, and although his Four Keihin 37 mm carb 1967 Mustang fit up yielded 158 flywheel hp from just a mildly cammed and headered 200 six, it was actually a Port on Port on the outer carbs (feeding cylinders 1 and 6 via an offset 1-1/2" pipe, and One venturi per 2 cylinders feeding 2, 3, 4, 5). That's why it had some issues with a flat spot off idle.



Lets see. 352/2= 176 cubic inches

315/2= 157.5 hp.

Add a 9 pound turbo boost ratio of 9+14.7/14.7 or 1.61, and you have a 253 hp potential engine right away, Dr Bombay.

That will be able to almost match a naturally aspirated 1961 280 HP net 45DCOE Weber 170 Falcon from Australia.



viewtopic.php?f=1&t=76629
xctasy wrote:Confirmation of the 170 back to 144 differences is the 5017 Offehauser and its running mate for the first few years, the old Edelbrock F360 aluminum adaptor.

Image

They both "sit down" and "hug up" on a 144 because its a skinnier "dawg turd". The very slightly bigger 170 intake runner variances were created by ovaling out the heads log section. The 5205 therefore rides up a little more, but nothing an O ring seal replaced with Devcon/JB Weld cant fix.

Care of Hot Rodding the 144 Ford 6 page 46

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This enlargement care of http://image.mustangandfords.com/f/3552 ... _heads.jpg

At first glance, Ford light-duty six heads all look the same. This is a '60 144ci cylinder-head casting-a C0OE. Casting numbers and dates are important for identification. The earlier heads have smaller valves and chambers. Valve and chamber size increased with increasing displacement.


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The stock 170 C0DE6090 head was trim externally, but fatter than the 144 C0-C3OE

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In this article, the stoked out Paxton blown Tri-power 144 is my pick of delectable engines. Two other articles, May 1961 1960 "Stroker" 144 Comete with blower with 2-bbl Holley 94 2-bbl w/ mounting plate, blower hat and belt tensioner, special distributor & fuel pump/pressure regulator, JE 1.436" compression pistons with the longer than factory 170/200 4.715" rods, (the earlier 144 4.855" rods), 12 thou deck register, 170 valves...

They were doing it all back in 60 to 61!

The 2V 250 Falcon used the Stromberg WW 2-bbl carb like the one used in this artocle from Jalopy Journal

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thr ... it.625962/

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Page 102 missing sadly.

July 1960, Hot Rod had an article "Supercharging the Compacts"

Remember, the Pumpkin Seed was making 156 hp net per 156 cubic inches in 1960, and 187 hp net on Alchol with its Mechancial Fuel injection. A two-way average of 205.949 mph at Bonneville.

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2017/04/0 ... l-of-fame/

That's just a Vern Hule, Stroppe Brothers Falcon 144 bored out, same as the 8500 rpm rev limit Hydroplane racer engines; (accomplished by sawing off the stock integrated intake manifold and installing a custom adapter plate) and a set of very long headers.

Best stock rear wheel horsepower for a so called 170 was 47 in 1961, 18 less rear wheel hp than the 65 hp or so Ak Miller made on his 115 hp gross 1967 Mustang engine before the tuning process started.

The knowledge base in 1960 was further ahead than the current US knowledge base....compact little I6's were making more hp per cube.

All this talk about other engine swaps.. all good, but the Pizza base you have can take it all.

280 hp proves it!
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: HP Crisis

Post #20 by 62Cometman » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:18 am

I actually have every single hot rod magazine from the sixties that did an article on falcon, comet or ford six motors. If anyone wants me to scan these articles and upload them either here or somewhere that the information can be shared i'd gladly do so. Ak miller was a god among men when it came to the ford six, too bad paxton didnt put their six blower set up into production it would have been everything everyone was looking for plus some. I did have this tickle of a thought about keeping things oldschool and cool and wondered how much effort would be required to find and install a centrifugal supercharger off a stude avanti? I think that would be a wild look and a kinda 60s style all of its own.
1962 Mercury Comet 170 ci, 2.77 Trans, 3.10:1 7.25 rear.
She ain't fast but she's fun. 8)

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Re: HP Crisis

Post #21 by bubba22349 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:35 pm

62Cometman wrote:I actually have every single hot rod magazine from the sixties that did an article on falcon, comet or ford six motors. If anyone wants me to scan these articles and upload them either here or somewhere that the information can be shared i'd gladly do so. Ak miller was a god among men when it came to the ford six, too bad paxton didnt put their six blower set up into production it would have been everything everyone was looking for plus some. I did have this tickle of a thought about keeping things oldschool and cool and wondered how much effort would be required to find and install a centrifugal supercharger off a stude avanti? I think that would be a wild look and a kinda 60s style all of its own.


I went to Ak's shop a few times after work (at the old Ford assembly plant in Pico Revera) that was a great experience! I would like to see some of those old articles again there are a number of them I remember reading back in the day but haven't been able to find them all again.

:beer: Yes a Paxton installed on a six would be a good looking combo, that shouldn't be all that hard to do an install! :thumbup:

If I can get a hold of another 250 engine to build I am thinking of going with a Roots style blower (Eaton) for it. Good luck on your build. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: HP Crisis

Post #22 by xctasy » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:18 am

None of the old Superchargers are reliable, but they are certainly rebuildable, and they impress the heck out of everyone. Mustangaroo had the normal problems everyone has with SN89's. SN59's and 60's also have there share of problems

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Small Paxtons (and the modern Innovi replacements) don't make Rootes or Twin Screw or B&M/Weiand positive displacement blower torque off idle, one the of the key "kicks", they are centrifugal superchargers, and boost progressively and require better breathing and cam. They are always a disapointment unless the engine starts big and is boosted hard with a wild cam. The drive systems are complicated, often fail to make the goods on a dyno because of belt slip. 5.0's and 5.8's of all types, Windsor, Cleveland, Mod DOHC, all respond fine to them; they have preloaded belt drives for them that REALLY work, but I6's, nothing exists.

A close to perfect king hit is baldricks M90 Eaton drive kit, where he just dropped the water pump mike1157 style, and then use a stock Serp belt. That works really well. Actually, Mike made his serpentine drive after a little bit of scientific investigation here and on other places on the 'net.

Its your car, you'll do whateva "floats yer boat".

You don't want a slipping belt, an old unreconditioned Paxton blower, and the lack off off idle boost that happen with old, less efficent systems, then you'll have to contact some of the service guys. They can work, but let me tell you a secrete. Dispite the 312 2 seater Thunderbird and 57 Fairlane and Mercury Y block Supercharged option being factory, along with the 289 Studebaker Hawk and Avanti R2's, the Shelby Mustangs 289 and 427 Blower options, it was Benson Ford who made the system work. It did so, but was not able to make the 50000 mile durablity targets and that's what killed the system.

Saleen tried hard to certify the SN89 for US Emmissions and Ford's durablity targets, but it was a failure, and they had to use EFI to make any success of it. Then Paxton did a total over haul of the engineering to beat the durality targets, and thats the Innovi.

Here is a fairly common 1985 carb blower for a 4BBL 5.0GT Mustang,
http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread. ... Mustang-GT

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a very simple kit that worked, but wasn't 100% reliable with respect to the belt drive and durablity. RaceCraft made one of them ,thrashed the crud outa it, and then it took 9 years and EFI to certify it. After that, they re-engineered it totally.

I wish you luck with the system. It misses the simplicity and reliablity of something like this

Image
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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supercharger

Post #23 by chad » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:47 am

just saw 1 of those superchargers yesterday - on the 'throw out pile'
(behind the garage is a metal plie 4 things goin to the scrap man - cash 4 weight). It has
a plate missing offa 1 of the 'long' sides (top? bottom?). Is it worth anything
to pull off the pile & ship some 1?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: HP Crisis

Post #24 by xctasy » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:05 am

chad wrote:just saw 1 of those superchargers yesterday - on the 'throw out pile'
(behind the garage is a metal plie 4 things goin to the scrap man - cash 4 weight). It has
a plate missing offa 1 of the 'long' sides (top? bottom?). Is it worth anything
to pull off the pile & ship some 1?



Yup, ship it to 62Cometman!

There are excellent original rebuilders for the SN series

Add it to something like this...

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or this
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Used extensively in Hydroplane boats

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Job Done....
Last edited by xctasy on Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: HP Crisis

Post #25 by bmbm40 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:16 pm

62Cometman wrote:I actually have every single hot rod magazine from the sixties that did an article on falcon, comet or ford six motors. If anyone wants me to scan these articles and upload them either here or somewhere that the information can be shared i'd gladly do so. Ak miller was a god among men when it came to the ford six, too bad paxton didnt put their six blower set up into production it would have been everything everyone was looking for plus some. I did have this tickle of a thought about keeping things oldschool and cool and wondered how much effort would be required to find and install a centrifugal supercharger off a stude avanti? I think that would be a wild look and a kinda 60s style all of its own.


Not sure if there would be a copyright issue but all those articles would be a nice feature on here.
66 Bronco-1970 250, NV3550, DSII, 4 turn ps, uncut, 1" bl, 2.5" sl, front disc, twin stick D 20, 30 x 9.50
NEXT- direct mount 1.08 on D8 head, power brakes, rear limited slip, 3G, electric fan, electric upgrades, custom curved DSII, header, 31" tires

'81 F150 4x4 300

New guy? Get this>http://www.falcon6handbook.com

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Re: HP Crisis

Post #26 by chad » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:53 pm

xctasy wrote:Yup, ship it to 62Cometman!Job Done....

I am most impressed by what is shown in the last 6 pic.
The inventiveness and construction!

I grew up on the Chesapake Bay (1952 - '80) and saw some teake, mahogony and brass outfitted "skiffs" with motors
like those in the area. I wonder if there is a connection. The engine pictured is the 200?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: HP Crisis

Post #27 by chad » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:54 pm

double post
Last edited by chad on Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: HP Crisis

Post #28 by xctasy » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:41 am

chad wrote:I grew up on the Chesapake Bay (1952 - '80) and saw some teake, mahogony and brass outfitted "skiffs" with motors
like those in the area. I wonder if there is a connection. The engine pictured is the 200?


Nope as per Hot Rodding the 144 Ford 6, "Making the Falcon Fly", May 1960, and the Comete engine May 1961.

its a 1-8" overbored 156, just like the Fuel injected Pumpkin Seed engine.

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And as it is today

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If I'm not mistaken, the Pumpkin Seed Engine is the injected engine on the cover. Stroppe wanted the Vern Hule built injected six-cylinder engine back, so Bill Burke turned to another famous engine builder, Mickey Thompson, to build a pair of Pontiac Tempest GMC 471 Supercharged 120 and 185 cube slant four engines for the streamliner’s return to Bonneville in 1961. It got to 232 mph in 1962, its last year before resurection.

Here it is inside

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All those Racing Skiffs got various class engines if they were racers.
135 World class was revamped when Terry Morgan won the World 135 cubic inch class in a Twin Cam six carb headed Holden Six. Up till then (1953?), it had been the 135/60 Ford V8's domain.

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The next step up was the 155 cubic inch class, which became a Ford Falcon benefit match.

144 Six Amal carb or one carb per cylinder engines, bored out like in the first Injected HRM engine. The stanadard early engines were 135/60 Flat head v8's, then the Falcon six.


viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6557&p=115852#p115852
xctasy wrote:I'm reviewing my old links for a book I'm writing...._

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I guess Page 98 ( http://img73.photobucket.com/albums/v22 ... tsix05.jpg ) does it for me.

If a non supercharged triple carb 158 cubic inch six port headed Holden or Ford Zephyr Zodiac with a Raymond Mays alloy head engine can each make make 168 hp in 1960, then adding a turbo to any 170 Ford six should be a easy way of making fuss free power.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: HP Crisis

Post #29 by xctasy » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:35 am

xctasy wrote:
chad wrote:just saw 1 of those superchargers yesterday - on the 'throw out pile'
(behind the garage is a metal plie 4 things goin to the scrap man - cash 4 weight). It has
a plate missing offa 1 of the 'long' sides (top? bottom?). Is it worth anything
to pull off the pile & ship some 1?



Yup, ship it to 62Cometman!

There are excellent original rebuilders for the SN series....


As recomended by duskpearl in this post viewtopic.php?f=22&t=57233&p=498373#p498373

http://paradisewheels.biz/power/superchargers/


Contact Craig Conley
Paradise Wheels Inc
1413 Linda Vista Dr Suite D
San Marcos, Ca 92078
760-744-2400 (Mon-Fri, 9am-5pm PST)

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The old "huffers" are supported, and the brackets and details Craig is well aware of. Mustangaroo is no longer around here, but you can contact him I guess...he logs on to check once in a while.

I personally think these solutions from 1960 are the right ones...time has moved on, but you really cannot beat the basic Hot Rodding nauce from the early years. Linking some thing like these SN89's with a Vintage In lines head with the right kind of fuel delivery, well, you'll get a sensational result.

In terms of dollars per horsepower, its a cost, but these I6's just bend the minds on people at car shows. If you want kudos and a smile you cannot remove even when confronted with Bad Le Roy Brown and a crow bar, then look no further than your own soil.

Adding it up...200 Cube six, good Offy or VI head, and a form of appropraite boost according to your creed, and your into the 300 rwhp level.

For minimum dollars per maximum horsepower, an Aluminum head and cam with a basic rebuilt 200, or a Turbo with good breathing triple carb head would give you a lot of smiles.

We all have budgets....the old timers had Solutions.

I've seen a lot of naturally aspirated Australian Ford sixes, but the end of the Falcon program in 2016 died with a radical turbo engine.

Ak Millers last cars where turbo charged.

viewtopic.php?t=74249
curts56 wrote:
guhfluh wrote:
curts56 wrote:I'm in the process of putting together a turboed 300 for my 56 F100 and thought I'd post a few photos of my 1979 Ak Miller turbo kit:

http://www.ckdesign-inc.com/images/Turbo/300-1.JPG
http://www.ckdesign-inc.com/images/Turbo/300-2.JPG
http://www.ckdesign-inc.com/images/Turbo/300-3.JPG
http://www.ckdesign-inc.com/images/Turbo/akmiller.jpg

I plan on adding a wastegate to replace the original IMPCO inline boost controller. The kit didn't come with any brackets to support the intake plenum so I modified the alternator/smog pump bracket to provide support. So far so good. Now all I need is to fill the block with parts. I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions for this forum.

It looks like you use a HD exhaust manifold, is it? Or a stock one?

With the turbo placement, do you think a normal 70's model motor mount would have clearance issues?


It's a HD manifold that has been cut at the base and a turbo flange welded on. Here's an article that uses the stock manifold:

http://www.ckdesign-inc.com/images/Turbo/Six%20Appeal.pdf



Jay Storers article was decribed in this 1975 HR blurb, and again in the 1985 Propane Performance book.



Ak was famous for his Oldsmobiles,but he wasn’t a make specific kinda guy. If it fit and ran, it would go in his car...I'll leave it to ol' Ack!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ztujox8fly0
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: HP Crisis

Post #30 by rwbrooks50 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:41 pm

Would a 71 Maverick be a good choice for a Barra 240T with the auto trans? The motor and trans is available for $4500 plus getting thru USA Customs.

Rick

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HP Crisis 4 what? tq is the deal

Post #31 by chad » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:48 pm

pic shows that as a huge engine (C the bent8 nxt to it?).
'60s, '70s Fords have low hoods...
custom motor mounts R parta da formula I'd suppose when dropping 4.5 ($).
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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