Weber DCOE?

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Omoitsurugi
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Weber DCOE?

Post #1 by Omoitsurugi » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:03 am

As I'm still sitting in Spain waiting to get my mustang back in my hands, I'm trying to plan out my build and wanting to keep my stock engine.

I know one thing for sure, I'll be saving up money to hopefully get an aluminum head from vintage in lines either for the next production or the one after (even a second hand one if possible).

As I'm researching I'm thinking about doing a side draft carb set up and was wondering if anyone has had experience dealing with them on the 200? What kind of power can I expect from a triple carb Weber DCOE set up? I'm just trying to good street able daily set up that I can occasionally take to the track.

Until I get a alum head I may pick up a 250 or another 200 head and modify and machine it to accept a custom intake manifold to support the webers.

Thanks,
Andrew

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cr_bobcat
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Re: Weber DCOE?

Post #2 by cr_bobcat » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:08 am

I've seen pictures but haven't seen one in action. I've also loved the look of that configuration
Block: Stock C8 Block/pistons, C9-M head, 1.75/1.5 valves, dual spring, 1.65 RAU Rockers, port divider, direct mount Holley 4412-500, HEI w/20* advance, manifold vac, dual-out Arvinode exhaust, Clay Smith 264/274 110* installed w/ 4* advance, adjustable dual chain timing, C4 w/ shift kit, 3.20 (TBC) rear ratio, 9.44 SCR / 7.97 DCR

Build that Six with parts from http://www.vintageinlines.com

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Re: Weber DCOE?

Post #3 by CNC-Dude » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:39 am

I offer several DCOE side draft intakes for other inline engines I've designed and manufacture, and the DCOE carbs are very tuneable and reliable. I think you'll enjoy them.
Image

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chad
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SU, Solex, Keihin, DCOE, Mikuni, Carter (YH)

Post #4 by chad » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:44 pm

"...my stock engine..."
every 6 mo or so I C a thread on here bout multis (even though the log gets wacked
the rest of the engine can "stay stock").
U Tube has several 3, 4 and 6 carb side drafts on i6. The venerable AK even did some.
The shock tower's close & exhaust is over there too so design/choose carefully...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q ... 8745568140

(hope the above came out, still needs 1 on each end a` la` GT6)
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

gb500
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Re: Weber DCOE?

Post #5 by gb500 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:49 pm

search 'knott' on this forum.

heres his youtube vid.

full race + triple webers -reputedly 280 hp from a 170.in australia

paul knott was the original owner in New south wales, Australia. now sold on to another Victoria , Australia dude.

paul knotts youtube vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QTgb4knAuI

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Omoitsurugi
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Re: Weber DCOE?

Post #6 by Omoitsurugi » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:20 am

CNC-Dude wrote:I offer several DCOE side draft intakes for other inline engines I've designed and manufacture, and the DCOE carbs are very tuneable and reliable. I think you'll enjoy them.


CNC-Dude

Eventually when i'm getting to the point of chopping up a head or i've got myself a Alum head I may contact you! Right now this is planning, gathering money and waiting for my block to be rebuilt (once I get the money for that). I'm excited to learn more about these and start buying parts.


chad wrote:"...my stock engine..."
every 6 mo or so I C a thread on here bout multis (even though the log gets wacked
the rest of the engine can "stay stock").
U Tube has several 3, 4 and 6 carb side drafts on i6. The venerable AK even did some.
The shock tower's close & exhaust is over there too so design/choose carefully...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q ... 8745568140

(hope the above came out, still needs 1 on each end a` la` GT6)


Chad,

The plan isn't to keep the engine itself stock, just numbers matching. I'll be building up the bottom end when I get it rebuilt here soon. Part of the plan is forged pistons, better cam, bored .30 over... and some more. from what i've been reading in the falcon performance book, it seems doable.

Overall the plan is to keep the car numbers matching.

gb500 wrote:search 'knott' on this forum.

heres his youtube vid.

full race + triple webers -reputedly 280 hp from a 170.in australia

paul knott was the original owner in New south wales, Australia. now sold on to another Victoria , Australia dude.

paul knotts youtube vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QTgb4knAuI


gb500,

Oh man, I saw a picture of that engine while just searching on google, That was kinda the plan. either side draft over the top like that or turbo'd... I think building a turbo would be a lot of work, and may be out of my skill (right now). I'm still learning and hopefully i can make 200-300 hp from an N/A streetable build.

cr_bobcat wrote:I've seen pictures but haven't seen one in action. I've also loved the look of that configuration


Bobcat,

Me too, I've seen them mostly on 4 cylinder imports, honda/toyota, the apparently also use motorcylce carbs on some too. seen a few on 6 cyl race engines or V8's like Ken Block's Hoonicorn v1 (I know they're stacks and probalby just individual efi(?) throttle bodies). Getting excited, haha.

:beer: Cheers All,
Andrew

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cr_bobcat
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Re: Weber DCOE?

Post #7 by cr_bobcat » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:29 am

Here is another interesting approach. Not period correct, but pretty slick.

http://www.v-performance.com/products/air_fuel.html
Block: Stock C8 Block/pistons, C9-M head, 1.75/1.5 valves, dual spring, 1.65 RAU Rockers, port divider, direct mount Holley 4412-500, HEI w/20* advance, manifold vac, dual-out Arvinode exhaust, Clay Smith 264/274 110* installed w/ 4* advance, adjustable dual chain timing, C4 w/ shift kit, 3.20 (TBC) rear ratio, 9.44 SCR / 7.97 DCR

Build that Six with parts from http://www.vintageinlines.com

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chad
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13 yrs of testing

Post #8 by chad » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:38 pm

the inherent operation/design really has it (Mukuni / Keihn) over the traditional weber side draft.
stickin em in that space is easier too.
Now the rest? not so easy...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Omoitsurugi
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Re: Weber DCOE?

Post #9 by Omoitsurugi » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:56 am

cr_bobcat wrote:Here is another interesting approach. Not period correct, but pretty slick.

http://www.v-performance.com/products/air_fuel.html


Interesting, all single barrel carbs? looks like either to get the same effect as the DCOE i'd have to use 6? haha, sounds fun?!

In a serious note, it looks to be doable. I could just use 3 carbs and save some money, but i like the look of 6 individual throttle bodies, but it's something to consider!

chad wrote:the inherent operation/design really has it (Mukuni / Keihn) over the traditional weber side draft.
stickin em in that space is easier too.
Now the rest? not so easy...


the rest is what makes it more difficult, 3 carbs would be one thing, but getting 6 individual carbs to work together! Wow, I'll have to get a carb wizard to work on that!

Thanks for the ideas! keep em coming!
-Andrew

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chad
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3 to 8 'cycle carbs - automotive app

Post #10 by chad » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:51 am

http://www.v-performance.com/products/air_fuel.html[/quote]
like the look of 6 individual throttle bodies, but it's something to consider!
chad wrote:the inherent operation/design really has it (Mukuni / Keihn) over the traditional weber side draft.
stickin em in that space is easier too.
Now the rest? not so easy...

the rest is what makes it more difficult, 3 carbs would be one thing, but getting 6 individual carbs to work together! Wow, I'll have to get a carb wizard to work on that!
Thanks for the ideas! keep em coming!
-Andrew[/quote]
"The rest" has been covered in multiple threads over the yrs here (mounting, intake, tuning, but linkage - not so much).
Don't forget - these carbs use similar technology but fewer parts to carbs we all know'n love.
The repost of my link has 6 ($3K) and 8 Mukuni automotive adaptations. The vid (cited but not linked) has 6 Keihns by a fella who's visited here & responded to our Qs.

Again, all NOT new...pay homage to AK and the early innovators...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Weber DCOE?

Post #11 by slowhoon » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:59 am

Hi,

I own and race a car with a 170 running a worked 2V head with triple Weber 45 DCOEs. Not a Falcon/Mustang mind you - here's a picture to give you an idea: http://www.groundsky.co.nz/index.php?Ac ... eID=505488

Currently it's got a very mild cam in it (specs unknown - it was a cheap purchase of a complete block) and is putting out roughly 92 kilowatts at the rear wheels. Calculating back at an assumed 10% frictional loss (straight cut gearbox) and converting to horsepower gets me to 140hp.

A good friend, who I bought the car off several years back, had a much better cam in it and on 40 DCOE Webers got 188hp at 6,000 rpm on an accurate engine dyno. The only thing holding it back at the time was the carbs (i.e. 45 DCOEs would have allowed more revs and horses). That engine unfortunately eventually liberated number 5 piston out the side of the block (we suspect from using standard rod bolts instead of the ARP ones that were supposed to be in there!).

I bought a number of parts off Classic Inlines over the years prior to Mike W's passing and realized at the end of 2017 that I've had some of those parts for over 10 years, so am planning to get a hot motor built this year and am aiming for 200-220 hp.

Putting triple 45s on a 200 would produce better results - amongst other things the 2V head is designed for a bigger cylinder bore than the 170 has, so my engine suffers losses through the combustion chambers being wider than the pistons. You'll also have the benefit of a 7 bearing bottom end so will be able to rev the living daylights out of the engine! Granted you won't be running a 2V head, but the aluminium (sorry, aluminum) head is eminently comparable with the 2V.

My 2 cents worth regarding Japanese motorbike carbs: you may well be on your own with tuning the engine, as there isn't necessarily the jets etc. available or the knowledge of tuning them that there is with Webers.

For linkages, Redline Performance produce all sorts of bits and pieces - I had a Weber specialist a few years ago assemble a kit that basically joins all the butterfly spindles together and these are apparently Redline parts. They also seem to be standard on many Dellorto DHLA carbs (before Dellorto stopped making them).

I'm a few hours away from leaving for a race meeting this coming weekend with the car and just happened to see this post - if you like I could try and upload some more useful picture of the carb assembly when I return (although I might not have posted enough messages to the forum yet to get that privilege!).

Cheers,
Alan.

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Omoitsurugi
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Re: Weber DCOE?

Post #12 by Omoitsurugi » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:54 am

slowhoon wrote:Hi,

I own and race a car with a 170 running a worked 2V head with triple Weber 45 DCOEs. Not a Falcon/Mustang mind you - here's a picture to give you an idea: http://www.groundsky.co.nz/index.php?Ac ... eID=505488

Currently it's got a very mild cam in it (specs unknown - it was a cheap purchase of a complete block) and is putting out roughly 92 kilowatts at the rear wheels. Calculating back at an assumed 10% frictional loss (straight cut gearbox) and converting to horsepower gets me to 140hp.

A good friend, who I bought the car off several years back, had a much better cam in it and on 40 DCOE Webers got 188hp at 6,000 rpm on an accurate engine dyno. The only thing holding it back at the time was the carbs (i.e. 45 DCOEs would have allowed more revs and horses). That engine unfortunately eventually liberated number 5 piston out the side of the block (we suspect from using standard rod bolts instead of the ARP ones that were supposed to be in there!).

I bought a number of parts off Classic Inlines over the years prior to Mike W's passing and realized at the end of 2017 that I've had some of those parts for over 10 years, so am planning to get a hot motor built this year and am aiming for 200-220 hp.

Putting triple 45s on a 200 would produce better results - amongst other things the 2V head is designed for a bigger cylinder bore than the 170 has, so my engine suffers losses through the combustion chambers being wider than the pistons. You'll also have the benefit of a 7 bearing bottom end so will be able to rev the living daylights out of the engine! Granted you won't be running a 2V head, but the aluminium (sorry, aluminum) head is eminently comparable with the 2V.

My 2 cents worth regarding Japanese motorbike carbs: you may well be on your own with tuning the engine, as there isn't necessarily the jets etc. available or the knowledge of tuning them that there is with Webers.

For linkages, Redline Performance produce all sorts of bits and pieces - I had a Weber specialist a few years ago assemble a kit that basically joins all the butterfly spindles together and these are apparently Redline parts. They also seem to be standard on many Dellorto DHLA carbs (before Dellorto stopped making them).

I'm a few hours away from leaving for a race meeting this coming weekend with the car and just happened to see this post - if you like I could try and upload some more useful picture of the carb assembly when I return (although I might not have posted enough messages to the forum yet to get that privilege!).

Cheers,
Alan.



Alan,

With the japanese motorbike carbs, that was exactly my thought. I'd have to pretty much build something completely from the ground up with them, tuning would be almost impossible. with the Weber's i'd have more options on getting it exactly right, there's books out there on how to get them working properly, etc...

I'd love to see more of your engine, and pick your brain more. I wish i could get my hands on a 2v head at least until i could afford a alum one. I still have the stock head, the plan was to get another stock head and try to modify that and shave off the intake manifold build a new one and tap the head of the "stock head" the reason for the kinda round about way is cuase my engine is completely numbers matching, i'd like to be able to just swap the head for the most part if i ever wanted to (when i hand it down to my daughter, etc...)

Really excited you replied because (selfish reasons), at least ask for some pictures to help with my planning. Your track toy looks like a fun project!

Cheers,
Andrew :beer:

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Re: Weber DCOE?

Post #13 by rocklord » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:46 am

There are websites in England that show how to use motorcycle carbs in automobiles.
http://www.altiss.com/ThrottleBodies.html

http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=103402

http://www.danstengineering.co.uk/

Motorcycle carbs are similar to SUs in that they are variable venturi.
Motorcycle carbs from 600cc to 1000cc engines are large enough to run on our 6 cylinders; some motorcycle engines redline to 12,000 rpm, so these carbs will work on an engine that only redlines to 6,000 rpm.

Here's some you tube videos showing a 69 Mustang with a 200 6cyl running Keihin bike carbs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWM5-xZ1q0M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIeh3Bf_8sQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyTHu3NkQIE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-EVAnY7WKQ

Hope this helps.
Dan

Currently Own
1965 Mustang, 200CID, 3Spd
1964 Corvair Coupe, 164CID, 140HP, 4Spd
1961 Corvair Lakewood wagon, 145CID, 80HP, 2Spd Powerglide Auto.
2017 BMW X3, 3.0L Dual Turbo, 300HP, 8-Spd Auto

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chad
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Re: Weber DCOE?

Post #14 by chad » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:06 am

Thanks for the links rocky!
I was introduced to Ron Ward here.
Great stuff!
Didn't a few "multies" post back'n forth here a yr or so ago?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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