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Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

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chad
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new thread: Tuning the 32/36 w/a A/F gauge

Post #51 by chad » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:26 pm

Xctasy will take a PM. He's back on here (4eyed pride might B quicker?).
He sez the Manuel is a lill off. Think the H/W 5200 or webber 32/36 might B the only webber he doesn't wrk w/?
Ask him...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #52 by xctasy » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:03 pm

:hmmm: Bill is the man on Ignition :mrgreen:


Right back atcha! :thumbup: :beer:


IMHO, the first thing to fix is ignition, not jetting, air correctors or emulsion tubes. You can fiddle with fuel pressure, jets, correctors and there is some excellent work one can do on well (emulsion) tubes, but when something as simple as a secondary arm touching the manifold adaptor, or a manifold vaccum or ported vac line to the distributor, or worse, grit and shEat in the fuel system can lean out a carb under wide open throttle, you can be constantly moving back and forth. The gas leal by propane method can help set base idle, and the base idle still has the secondary barrel activated in the US Holley Weber 5200. The West Germans tuned the 2.8 2-bbl carb to suit the 104 hp 170 engine, and the way it is now is lilely to be very close.

The game changer is IMHO, the ignItion and plug heats. They change idle, transition and tip in.

When 15, I helped and Ex Ford Ford Service techncian Alan Ireland, and he said do air fuel last. Fix the ignition detail first.

I guess I have seen many of the works that are done under the sun, and a lot of intial air fuel stuff is vanity and a chasing after wind.


I'm saying don't do any other major work on the jetting first. Don't be that guy, and don't be "Putting the Cart Before the Horse "


Circumstances alter cases


Phil Irving, Australian WWII engineering techncian reponsible for the Vincent V twin Motor Bike engine, the Formula One Repco Brahbam RB620 2.5 Liter V8, and Holden Grey Repco Power head and the later Red engine PI 12 port Heron and then modified Hero Yella Terra Repco Six cylinder Cylinder head developer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Irving.

In Tunning for Speed he goes through the Weber and every other dag gam carb ever made till 1960 with eleborate jetting process,

Image

always after the recomended Ignition ramps are put into place first. :nod:


Check 161henry's 3 page work ethic (epic?) work with the Triple YFA Carter 300 big six powered Rat Rod.

First thing to work on is the basics

https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78286&start=50

161henry wrote:Well sometimes it’s the simple things. Keep in mind I realize I need to recurve the DS2. And I have some metering rod work to do. But, I have the manual ford fuel pump with the fuel filter on it. I also installed an inline filter because the tank I used had sat a long time. I cleaned it the best I could. I noticed a leak at the inline filter so I popped it out and it was full of rusty red stuff. I replaced it and the AFR looks a lot better. I’ll look into the filter on the pump next. I ordered a fuel pressure gauge yesterday and I have a 35 gph pump in the garage if I need it. I’m guessing part of the reason I’m going lean at first is because my homemade intake has to much volume? And it takes a bit to get enough air pulling through the cards to draw fuel?? If I would have taken a stock intake and welded two pipes and flanges on it that would have been better for low end torque? Let me know if my thinking is sound or not.
Thanks
Warren


https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78286&start=100

161henry wrote:Last night I had some time and I installed the lightest advance springs the kit had. I used the weights that came with the HEI distributor and now I have 20 degrees advance just off idle with max of about 32 degrees. Before when I’d step on the gas you could feel the engine lag. When the timing finally came in it felt like a set of secondaries opened up on a property tuned engine. I still have metering rod work to do but it’s a ton better than it was. Why would a recurve kit come with weights that are smaller and lighter than stock?


And this is how it goes. If you want to undo all the work you do focusing on jetting the carb, I'll tell you how to profile the emulsion tubes to fatten or lean out the air fuel ratio anywhere you like.

But the cold running verses warm running "feel" and the subtle variances in air fuel ratio are due to ignition.

Once you fix the ignition, you then will have to rework your air fuel ratios to suit.


Go back to cr_bobcat's ignition mapping of the distributor advance back in 2016 or so.

Jetting is based on having a good ignition advance curve, and the right plug heat range.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #53 by wsa111 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:49 pm

Smooth idle on the lean side of adjustment.
You have to get the secondaries open to get a true WOT A/F.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #54 by StarDiero75 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:40 am

xctasy wrote::hmmm: Bill is the man on Ignition :mrgreen:


Right back atcha! :thumbup: :beer:


IMHO, the first thing to fix is ignition, not jetting, air correctors or emulsion tubes. You can fiddle with fuel pressure, jets, correctors and there is some excellent work one can do on well (emulsion) tubes, but when something as simple as a secondary arm touching the manifold adaptor, or a manifold vaccum or ported vac line to the distributor, or worse, grit and shEat in the fuel system can lean out a carb under wide open throttle, you can be constantly moving back and forth. The gas leal by propane method can help set base idle, and the base idle still has the secondary barrel activated in the US Holley Weber 5200. The West Germans tuned the 2.8 2-bbl carb to suit the 104 hp 170 engine, and the way it is now is lilely to be very close.

The game changer is IMHO, the ignItion and plug heats. They change idle, transition and tip in.

When 15, I helped and Ex Ford Ford Service techncian Alan Ireland, and he said do air fuel last. Fix the ignition detail first.

I guess I have seen many of the works that are done under the sun, and a lot of intial air fuel stuff is vanity and a chasing after wind.


I'm saying don't do any other major work on the jetting first. Don't be that guy, and don't be "Putting the Cart Before the Horse "


Circumstances alter cases


Phil Irving, Australian WWII engineering techncian reponsible for the Vincent V twin Motor Bike engine, the Formula One Repco Brahbam RB620 2.5 Liter V8, and Holden Grey Repco Power head and the later Red engine PI 12 port Heron and then modified Hero Yella Terra Repco Six cylinder Cylinder head developer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Irving.

In Tunning for Speed he goes through the Weber and every other dag gam carb ever made till 1960 with eleborate jetting process,

Image

always after the recomended Ignition ramps are put into place first. :nod:


Check 161henry's 3 page work ethic (epic?) work with the Triple YFA Carter 300 big six powered Rat Rod.

First thing to work on is the basics

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78286&start=50

161henry wrote:Well sometimes it’s the simple things. Keep in mind I realize I need to recurve the DS2. And I have some metering rod work to do. But, I have the manual ford fuel pump with the fuel filter on it. I also installed an inline filter because the tank I used had sat a long time. I cleaned it the best I could. I noticed a leak at the inline filter so I popped it out and it was full of rusty red stuff. I replaced it and the AFR looks a lot better. I’ll look into the filter on the pump next. I ordered a fuel pressure gauge yesterday and I have a 35 gph pump in the garage if I need it. I’m guessing part of the reason I’m going lean at first is because my homemade intake has to much volume? And it takes a bit to get enough air pulling through the cards to draw fuel?? If I would have taken a stock intake and welded two pipes and flanges on it that would have been better for low end torque? Let me know if my thinking is sound or not.
Thanks
Warren


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78286&start=100

161henry wrote:Last night I had some time and I installed the lightest advance springs the kit had. I used the weights that came with the HEI distributor and now I have 20 degrees advance just off idle with max of about 32 degrees. Before when I’d step on the gas you could feel the engine lag. When the timing finally came in it felt like a set of secondaries opened up on a property tuned engine. I still have metering rod work to do but it’s a ton better than it was. Why would a recurve kit come with weights that are smaller and lighter than stock?


And this is how it goes. If you want to undo all the work you do focusing on jetting the carb, I'll tell you how to profile the emulsion tubes to fatten or lean out the air fuel ratio anywhere you like.

But the cold running verses warm running "feel" and the subtle variances in air fuel ratio are due to ignition.

Once you fix the ignition, you then will have to rework your air fuel ratios to suit.


Go back to cr_bobcat's ignition mapping of the distributor advance back in 2016 or so.

Jetting is based on having a good ignition advance curve, and the right plug heat range.

I hoped i could get away with the carb first before the dizzy since its my daily.

When i do my disk brakes the car will be down a few days so that might be the time to get the dizzy curved. I am running a nice set of plugs, i got the iridium ones from NAPA. I don't know the heat of them but i can surely check.

I know the fuel system is pretty clean. I hosed out the gas tank 2 years ago, replaced the sending unit and filter. Replaced the inline filter. And its got a 2 year old fuel pump on it with a filter in it. So I'd say its pretty clean.

One thing that i can possibly do is open up the fuel pressure a little bit, that might help the WOT. I'm running 3psi, should i go to 4psi? I heard these carbs dont like a lot of pressure

Thanks as always,
Ryan
--1965 Ranchero w/1966 200 and 3.03 column shift, 8" rear 2.8 (Yes I know the gearing sucks), 1968 1.08 Autolite 2100 with VI adapter, CRT Performance HEI.
--1961 Studebaker Lark VI, OHV 170 l6 in the process of being resurrected. But it lives
--Creator of the only Weber 32/36 conversion video.

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #55 by StarDiero75 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:41 am

wsa111 wrote:Smooth idle on the lean side of adjustment.
You have to get the secondaries open to get a true WOT A/F.

For this last test i was just trying to get the idle circuit tuned first before i screw with the power circuit. How'd it look in the video?
--1965 Ranchero w/1966 200 and 3.03 column shift, 8" rear 2.8 (Yes I know the gearing sucks), 1968 1.08 Autolite 2100 with VI adapter, CRT Performance HEI.
--1961 Studebaker Lark VI, OHV 170 l6 in the process of being resurrected. But it lives
--Creator of the only Weber 32/36 conversion video.

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #56 by chad » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:54 am

answer: It pretty much worked (showed where the acc. peddle was & corresponding gauge response). That wuz good technique...
I'd just say - 1) smoother (longer duration) transitions; 2) staying in each segment longer (ie WOT, Idle, transitions) - both so we could have opportunity 2 C . U spent too lill time in each for me to tell. But I'm just 1 guy...
:thumbup:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #57 by StarDiero75 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:20 pm

Its official guys, the dizzy needs to be recurved.

I just swapped out the primary air jet from a 190 to a 160 (it means it will run richer at higher rpms as compared to the 190). Seemed to fix my WOT issue of going lean. I got it to about 12.5ish and it still pings, but just a little on a hill. That is with 12°BTDC. So this is definitely a distributor thing now.

On a side note
When not on a hill, man does this thing pull! Can't wait to get my T5 in it!

The dizzy came with some extra springs when i got it, i would need looser springs right?
--1965 Ranchero w/1966 200 and 3.03 column shift, 8" rear 2.8 (Yes I know the gearing sucks), 1968 1.08 Autolite 2100 with VI adapter, CRT Performance HEI.
--1961 Studebaker Lark VI, OHV 170 l6 in the process of being resurrected. But it lives
--Creator of the only Weber 32/36 conversion video.

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #58 by wsa111 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:26 pm

What octane fuel are you using? What is your cranking compression with the throttle wide open??
As far as you changing springs, you are in an area beyond your knowledge.
You need your distributor done by a professional.
To start what are all the specs on your engine??
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #59 by StarDiero75 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:11 pm

wsa111 wrote:What octane fuel are you using? What is your cranking compression with the throttle wide open??
As far as you changing springs, you are in an area beyond your knowledge.
You need your distributor done by a professional.
To start what are all the specs on your engine??

I use 87 octane which may be my issue.

Don't know in compressions, I've never checked since it runs good.

Ok i won't touch it then.

It should be all stock internally. I got the VI funnel adapter for the weber, CRT PERFORMANCE HEI with iridium plugs, with a 65 3.03 toploader 3spd, and a 2.8 Ford 8".

I'll check compression ratio next time I'm at my dad's, so tuesday.
--1965 Ranchero w/1966 200 and 3.03 column shift, 8" rear 2.8 (Yes I know the gearing sucks), 1968 1.08 Autolite 2100 with VI adapter, CRT Performance HEI.
--1961 Studebaker Lark VI, OHV 170 l6 in the process of being resurrected. But it lives
--Creator of the only Weber 32/36 conversion video.

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New Thread: re-curve w/ prt # xx Mr. Gasket+lill screwdriver

Post #60 by chad » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:11 am

Gotta go down a level below the 1st plate in the dizzy (below the 1 w/the points'n condenser...
Heres a lilll, not the best:
http://image_www.fordification.com/foru ... hp?t=87151

nother, not detailed:
https://www.fordmuscleforums.com/all-fo ... dizzy.html

any better?:
http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic ... ostID=5754

Hummm, don’t C the “bend the tag ‘x part of an inch’n try these Mr Gasket springs" I saw w/a 200 i6 somewhere…
Not much help, sorry :nono:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #61 by wsa111 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:39 am

StarDiero75 wrote:
wsa111 wrote:What octane fuel are you using? What is your cranking compression with the throttle wide open??
As far as you changing springs, you are in an area beyond your knowledge.
You need your distributor done by a professional.
To start what are all the specs on your engine??

I use 87 octane which may be my issue.

Don't know in compressions, I've never checked since it runs good.

Ok i won't touch it then.

It should be all stock internally. I got the VI funnel adapter for the weber, CRT PERFORMANCE HEI with iridium plugs, with a 65 3.03 toploader 3spd, and a 2.8 Ford 8".

I'll check compression ratio next time I'm at my dad's, so tuesday.

Fill the tank with at least 89 octane or even 91. With your crap west coast fuel thats most of your problem.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #62 by wsa111 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:42 am

Chad this is a HEI & all the springs are on top. Do not use those light springs they are for a DS11 or a points distributor.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
Image

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Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #63 by chad » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:52 pm

o0OPp, right !
"...they are for a DSII or a points distributor...."
(Thnx, didn't C that).
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #64 by StarDiero75 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:55 pm

I need to fill up anyway. I'll give 89 a try. If still, I'll do 91.

I will have to make due with the timing curve till the car gets some down time either during my T5 conversion or disk brake conversion. I'll send you, Bill, a pm then on getting it done.

Thanks a lot guys!
--1965 Ranchero w/1966 200 and 3.03 column shift, 8" rear 2.8 (Yes I know the gearing sucks), 1968 1.08 Autolite 2100 with VI adapter, CRT Performance HEI.
--1961 Studebaker Lark VI, OHV 170 l6 in the process of being resurrected. But it lives
--Creator of the only Weber 32/36 conversion video.

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #65 by wsa111 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:27 pm

StarDiero75 wrote:I need to fill up anyway. I'll give 89 a try. If still, I'll do 91.

I will have to make due with the timing curve till the car gets some down time either during my T5 conversion or disk brake conversion. I'll send you, Bill, a pm then on getting it done.

Thanks a lot guys!

Bump the timing up another 2 degrees with the higher octane fuel in it.
When ever you are ready. Bill
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #66 by xctasy » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:44 pm

And be carefull how you use your existing vacuum supply to the distributor. I'm not saying one is better than the other, only that when the throttle is closed or near closed, the secondary barrel will be adding fuel air mix to the engine. Often your air fuel is sytomatic of what vacuum source you tap into.

Ported vacuum can create psycotic swings in air fuel ratio as throttle position changes.


Image
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #67 by xctasy » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:58 pm

Proper journalling of air fuel, base engine vac, and rpm is needed to get a full picture.


Image

Image

Image

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc5 ... _afr_1.jpg
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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On nother note

Post #68 by chad » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:00 pm

pardon the interjection ~

I wanted to send my condolences to our NZ mate as the crazyness has spread to down there. The 4 doz murders by the USA copying gun-man saddens me. I hope that is the last of it U see down there.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #69 by StarDiero75 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:45 am

xctasy wrote:Proper journalling of air fuel, base engine vac, and rpm is needed to get a full picture.


Image

Image

Image

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc5 ... _afr_1.jpg

I never thought of that. I'll get a T fitting for my vacuum port and run both the PCV and vacuum gauge. I'll mark down everything. Currently my screw is about 3.5 turns out. Should i bump up my idle jet?
--1965 Ranchero w/1966 200 and 3.03 column shift, 8" rear 2.8 (Yes I know the gearing sucks), 1968 1.08 Autolite 2100 with VI adapter, CRT Performance HEI.
--1961 Studebaker Lark VI, OHV 170 l6 in the process of being resurrected. But it lives
--Creator of the only Weber 32/36 conversion video.

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #70 by StarDiero75 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:46 am

wsa111 wrote:
StarDiero75 wrote:I need to fill up anyway. I'll give 89 a try. If still, I'll do 91.

I will have to make due with the timing curve till the car gets some down time either during my T5 conversion or disk brake conversion. I'll send you, Bill, a pm then on getting it done.

Thanks a lot guys!

Bump the timing up another 2 degrees with the higher octane fuel in it.
When ever you are ready. Bill

I'll try that. I'll go to 89 first and see if it goes away first.
--1965 Ranchero w/1966 200 and 3.03 column shift, 8" rear 2.8 (Yes I know the gearing sucks), 1968 1.08 Autolite 2100 with VI adapter, CRT Performance HEI.
--1961 Studebaker Lark VI, OHV 170 l6 in the process of being resurrected. But it lives
--Creator of the only Weber 32/36 conversion video.

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #71 by StarDiero75 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:20 pm

So i moved up to 89 octane and haven't noticed the ping. I'll look at bumping the timing up 2 more degrees.

Anyhow, i decided I'd take a look at the plugs, its strange, they're lean at front and get righer as i move back.

I'll be checking pressures in all the cylinders on tuesday hopefully.
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--1965 Ranchero w/1966 200 and 3.03 column shift, 8" rear 2.8 (Yes I know the gearing sucks), 1968 1.08 Autolite 2100 with VI adapter, CRT Performance HEI.
--1961 Studebaker Lark VI, OHV 170 l6 in the process of being resurrected. But it lives
--Creator of the only Weber 32/36 conversion video.

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try a plug chop after done'n w/a new set

Post #72 by chad » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:29 pm

one thru 6?
I'd say throw em out.
All way too burnt frm "too hot".
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: try a plug chop after done'n w/a new set

Post #73 by StarDiero75 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:02 pm

chad wrote:one thru 6?
I'd say throw em out.
All way too burnt frm "too hot".

How do i know I'm getting a colder plug though? And what should i look at getting?

I feel like this may also be a big contributor to why the car pings.
--1965 Ranchero w/1966 200 and 3.03 column shift, 8" rear 2.8 (Yes I know the gearing sucks), 1968 1.08 Autolite 2100 with VI adapter, CRT Performance HEI.
--1961 Studebaker Lark VI, OHV 170 l6 in the process of being resurrected. But it lives
--Creator of the only Weber 32/36 conversion video.

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #74 by chad » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:12 am

no, I ment the opposite. Ur timing or other reason for: "motor's too hot" way lean. (not plugs).
Follow what the others say plus put in the suggested (not irridum or whatever those R) plug. Do the plug chop for engine reading.
####################
tech archive:
NGK - The larger the number after the dash the colder the plug is. Example a R5671A-7 (a good street/strip plug) is a cold plug where a R5671A-10 is a very cold plug used for large 400hp and up nitrous and other power adder applications).

Autolite - The larger the last digit in the part number, the hotter the plug is. Example a AR3935 (good street/strip plug) is hotter than a AR3932 plug which is very cold used for lots of nitrous.

Champion - Typically Champion numbers in the same series the larger the number the hotter the plug.
#####################

This way U have a known 'to start with' AND a known 'to go to' if needing - that which U indicate "a hotter or colder plug".
I don't think you're there yet tho.
Last edited by chad on Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #75 by wsa111 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:18 am

Too lean a mixture & detonation. Looks like some oil buildup on some of the plugs.
What brand plugs & number. They look like NGK 7510??
Thats what i run in my engine & i have 9.4 compression, but the A/F is spot on & have no deposits.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #76 by StarDiero75 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:04 pm

wsa111 wrote:Too lean a mixture & detonation. Looks like some oil buildup on some of the plugs.
What brand plugs & number. They look like NGK 7510??
Thats what i run in my engine & i have 9.4 compression, but the A/F is spot on & have no deposits.

Yes they are. i just checked.

Would you recommend i use a different plug or just get replacements of these ones?
--1965 Ranchero w/1966 200 and 3.03 column shift, 8" rear 2.8 (Yes I know the gearing sucks), 1968 1.08 Autolite 2100 with VI adapter, CRT Performance HEI.
--1961 Studebaker Lark VI, OHV 170 l6 in the process of being resurrected. But it lives
--Creator of the only Weber 32/36 conversion video.

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Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #77 by chad » Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:45 pm

enrichen the A/F mixture, put in new plugs & ck new plugs after a plug chop, is my suggestion.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #78 by bubba22349 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:10 pm

:hmmm: x2 oil deposits likely your valve guides are worn out / loose! How many miles on that set of plugs? :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #79 by wsa111 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:13 pm

The NGK 7510 is an iridium center electrode plug. They are excellent for a NA engine.
They do not tolerate detonation. The center electrode if broken off is not friendly to piston crowns.
Till you get everything straightened out you may just want to use Autolite 45's & gap them at .045"-.048"
You need to run a compression check to see if you broke a top ring or damaged a ring land.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #80 by xctasy » Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:21 pm

Blow by and oil dilution of the air fuel mix, and things like timing chain wear which are common to our small sixes will alter your warming up tune, and you'll see that on your air fuel gauge if you do 5 minute verses 15 minute light off air fuel tests over the same territory. Nothing you can do to the jets, air correctors and e tubes will help much with that.

Bill and I like to do a cold cranking compression test, and an 8 hour or 24 hour static leak down test to baseline the internals are ok.

Then check that the vacuum advance is stable and the static advance is not hanging up, and is suited to the engine tune. Even re-routing the vacuum line can make massive change in how you set up the curb idle and lean cruise and transitions.


Once you got uniform, repeatable advance figures, and you know the cylinders are holding an 80% leak down, and as long as the cold cranking comps between cylinders are stable within +/- 15% (that covers your lifter preload or clearance, cam condition), then you can have fun base-lining your tune safely without going on a wild goose hunt.

The basic work you've done is fine. Plug reading teed into your wide band will tell you more about engine condition.

Enjoy getting to know how your engine ticks. I'm not a wide band guy, I like the basics, because a wide band is a seriously sharp piece of kit that needs a lot of brain in the head verses Seat of the Pants "Rectal Checks". Going to a wide band normally takes your

1. tingling palms,

2. 4500-5200 Hz hearing where the start of audible knock happens, and

3. butt-o-meter off the feeling of lean miss-fire and transitional responses. These happen in moderate grades, where and engine labors, and you can tune for elapsed times between station points.

Your five senses need to be tuned into how the combustion process works, and Color Tune, Narrow Band, and Plug readings at wide open throttle on cut ignition teach you a lot more than a Wide Band used first.

You have to spend much more time, and a wide band forces you to work at depth. I worry about safety in that enviroment, but a cell phone is no different.

The 6th sense for tuning is putting all the the things together. A wide band won't hurt ultimately, but your suddenly a NASA technician now Ryan.

Old car tuners were forced to take a step back. A wide band forces you to analyse the charts, and that takes your eyes off a vibrating hood, a harmonic tap that your ass or feet feel, or the kangaroo hop and pig rooting an engine exhibits. When my teacher, hot off the Ford Service Technican courses, had me setting up engines, it was always exhaust gas Co's, and then a quick test run, and revise. He'd tell me about what a lean missfire is, and how you checked your mean best torque ignition setting.

I'm not against a Wide Band. It just forces you to stop flying the engine tune by the seat of your pants. I'm sure Bob Wallace (Kiwi guy who de-tuned the 400 hp at 9000 rpm LP350 engine to a 320 at 7500 rpm road car engine at Lamborghini), I'll be he used a Wide Band, but I'll bet when he sanitized a V12 engine tune, he used all his senses, and worked from Ignition, Plugs, and then Weber tune basic, then when he had it in ballpark, a quick O2 sensor up the exhaust on a rolling road. Or a 170 mph smash over the Alps to France....


Anyway, Your in the Big Time, and listen to Bill and others that have had a go with a Wide Band. Its a wild ride!
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FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #81 by StarDiero75 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:41 pm

bubba22349 wrote::hmmm: x2 oil deposits likely your valve guides are worn out / loose! How many miles on that set of plugs? :nod:

Probably about 5ish thousand. I got a 1980 head lined up for it so im not super worried. I just want to get the E0 head ready for a direct 2bbl
--1965 Ranchero w/1966 200 and 3.03 column shift, 8" rear 2.8 (Yes I know the gearing sucks), 1968 1.08 Autolite 2100 with VI adapter, CRT Performance HEI.
--1961 Studebaker Lark VI, OHV 170 l6 in the process of being resurrected. But it lives
--Creator of the only Weber 32/36 conversion video.

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #82 by StarDiero75 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:49 pm

wsa111 wrote:The NGK 7510 is an iridium center electrode plug. They are excellent for a NA engine.
They do not tolerate detonation. The center electrode if broken off is not friendly to piston crowns.
Till you get everything straightened out you may just want to use Autolite 45's & gap them at .045"-.048"
You need to run a compression check to see if you broke a top ring or damaged a ring land.

I just tried the tester but i csnt tighten it. the nut part of it is way to low into the head. I have to look at getting an extension.

I had an old pair of the same NGKs sitting on the shelf and put them in. The car runs a lot smoother and the pinging definitely went away when i floor it. I'll look at getting a new pair of autolites though, they're cheap lol. I checked them after 5 mins of beating on them and they dont have that weird crusty look from the old ones. I'll check again after i get on the highway.

Honestly here, I'm very tempted to go back to my Holley 1904 off a 1953 215 l6. I just need a driver until i get outta school, then i can afford to screw with jets and this carb has a lot of possible adjustments. Its really intimidating. Or do you think i should just get a 1.08 2bbl autolite and run that? Since that is kinda what i plan on having when i put my 1980 head on
--1965 Ranchero w/1966 200 and 3.03 column shift, 8" rear 2.8 (Yes I know the gearing sucks), 1968 1.08 Autolite 2100 with VI adapter, CRT Performance HEI.
--1961 Studebaker Lark VI, OHV 170 l6 in the process of being resurrected. But it lives
--Creator of the only Weber 32/36 conversion video.

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #83 by Econoline » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:04 pm

Like X mentioned, if you are getting oil in the cylinders that can lead to detonation.
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #84 by StarDiero75 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:16 pm

xctasy wrote:Blow by and oil dilution of the air fuel mix, and things like timing chain wear which are common to our small sixes will alter your warming up tune, and you'll see that on your air fuel gauge if you do 5 minute verses 15 minute light off air fuel tests over the same territory. Nothing you can do to the jets, air correctors and e tubes will help much with that.

Bill and I like to do a cold cranking compression test, and an 8 hour or 24 hour static leak down test to baseline the internals are ok.

Then check that the vacuum advance is stable and the static advance is not hanging up, and is suited to the engine tune. Even re-routing the vacuum line can make massive change in how you set up the curb idle and lean cruise and transitions.


Once you got uniform, repeatable advance figures, and you know the cylinders are holding an 80% leak down, and as long as the cold cranking comps between cylinders are stable within +/- 15% (that covers your lifter preload or clearance, cam condition), then you can have fun base-lining your tune safely without going on a wild goose hunt.

The basic work you've done is fine. Plug reading teed into your wide band will tell you more about engine condition.

Enjoy getting to know how your engine ticks. I'm not a wide band guy, I like the basics, because a wide band is a seriously sharp piece of kit that needs a lot of brain in the head verses Seat of the Pants "Rectal Checks". Going to a wide band normally takes your

1. tingling palms,

2. 4500-5200 Hz hearing where the start of audible knock happens, and

3. butt-o-meter off the feeling of lean miss-fire and transitional responses. These happen in moderate grades, where and engine labors, and you can tune for elapsed times between station points.

Your five senses need to be tuned into how the combustion process works, and Color Tune, Narrow Band, and Plug readings at wide open throttle on cut ignition teach you a lot more than a Wide Band used first.

You have to spend much more time, and a wide band forces you to work at depth. I worry about safety in that enviroment, but a cell phone is no different.

The 6th sense for tuning is putting all the the things together. A wide band won't hurt ultimately, but your suddenly a NASA technician now Ryan.

Old car tuners were forced to take a step back. A wide band forces you to analyse the charts, and that takes your eyes off a vibrating hood, a harmonic tap that your ass or feet feel, or the kangaroo hop and pig rooting an engine exhibits. When my teacher, hot off the Ford Service Technican courses, had me setting up engines, it was always exhaust gas Co's, and then a quick test run, and revise. He'd tell me about what a lean missfire is, and how you checked your mean best torque ignition setting.

I'm not against a Wide Band. It just forces you to stop flying the engine tune by the seat of your pants. I'm sure Bob Wallace (Kiwi guy who de-tuned the 400 hp at 9000 rpm LP350 engine to a 320 at 7500 rpm road car engine at Lamborghini), I'll be he used a Wide Band, but I'll bet when he sanitized a V12 engine tune, he used all his senses, and worked from Ignition, Plugs, and then Weber tune basic, then when he had it in ballpark, a quick O2 sensor up the exhaust on a rolling road. Or a 170 mph smash over the Alps to France....


Anyway, Your in the Big Time, and listen to Bill and others that have had a go with a Wide Band. Its a wild ride!

I don't have it hooked up to a computer yet. I've just been running it with a camera like what I've been posting.

And don't get me wrong, i still try to tune it by how the car feels, i hear every little tick, rattle, and feel every vibration that car makes, it kinda drives me crazy lol. I've been tuning the idle by having my hand on the fender and feeling the vibration.

I do need to get a T valve for the vacuum so i can run both the pcv and the gauge. Last i checked, i had about 21 inches of Hg, which i thought was great but i haven't checked that since i started in the with wideband.

Thanks for your input man, I do like playing with it, just need more time and money lol
--1965 Ranchero w/1966 200 and 3.03 column shift, 8" rear 2.8 (Yes I know the gearing sucks), 1968 1.08 Autolite 2100 with VI adapter, CRT Performance HEI.
--1961 Studebaker Lark VI, OHV 170 l6 in the process of being resurrected. But it lives
--Creator of the only Weber 32/36 conversion video.

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #85 by StarDiero75 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:19 pm

Econoline wrote:Like X mentioned, if you are getting oil in the cylinders that can lead to detonation.

It can't be leaking that much, i don't have to top off my oil or anything. The oil residue doesn't look that bad, but I'll check with the new plugs after a bit to see whats happening.
--1965 Ranchero w/1966 200 and 3.03 column shift, 8" rear 2.8 (Yes I know the gearing sucks), 1968 1.08 Autolite 2100 with VI adapter, CRT Performance HEI.
--1961 Studebaker Lark VI, OHV 170 l6 in the process of being resurrected. But it lives
--Creator of the only Weber 32/36 conversion video.

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #86 by bubba22349 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:56 pm

StarDiero75 wrote:
bubba22349 wrote::hmmm: x2 oil deposits likely your valve guides are worn out / loose! How many miles on that set of plugs? :nod:

Probably about 5ish thousand. I got a 1980 head lined up for it so im not super worried. I just want to get the E0 head ready for a direct 2bbl


I had an old 250 like that, it ran very well with a fresh set of plugs for about 2000 to 3000 miles then would start missing pull the plugs they would be full of crud like yours. Valve guides were worn out, Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #87 by StarDiero75 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:34 am

bubba22349 wrote:
StarDiero75 wrote:
bubba22349 wrote::hmmm: x2 oil deposits likely your valve guides are worn out / loose! How many miles on that set of plugs? :nod:

Probably about 5ish thousand. I got a 1980 head lined up for it so im not super worried. I just want to get the E0 head ready for a direct 2bbl


I had an old 250 like that, it ran very well with a fresh set of plugs for about 2000 to 3000 miles then would start missing pull the plugs they would be full of crud like yours. Valve guides were worn out, Good luck :thumbup: :nod:

Hopefully i can get mine in soon and check the cylinder pressures. Would worn guides affect the numbers? I'd think they would
--1965 Ranchero w/1966 200 and 3.03 column shift, 8" rear 2.8 (Yes I know the gearing sucks), 1968 1.08 Autolite 2100 with VI adapter, CRT Performance HEI.
--1961 Studebaker Lark VI, OHV 170 l6 in the process of being resurrected. But it lives
--Creator of the only Weber 32/36 conversion video.

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #88 by bubba22349 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:29 am

Not always, a compression test can still show good numbers with worn valve guides. The recommended clearances of the valve stem to guide isn't very much. When the valve guides do get to a serverly worn state then yes it will show up in a compression test. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Are jet sizes proportional to engine size?

Post #89 by xctasy » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:02 pm

StarDiero75 wrote:Howdy guys,

So with my Weber 32/36 I've noticed once the car gets to operating temp, it seems to have a lot less power than when its warming up. So my guess is that my jet sizes are a little small.

So my question here is, if i know what the jet sizes are for the 2.8 Cologne V6, can i use that to calculate what my jet sizes should be for my 200 using proportions? Or since i have a SOC L4 5200, can i use that to find proportionally what it should be?

If so, does anyone know what the Cologne V6 Holley 5200 jet sizes are?

Thanks a lot,
Ryan



Copying a 5200 is fine, but the main and secondary jets are swapped, and the well tubes are US profiled after 1974.

And there are 34 different kinds of Holley Weber to copy from, with differing CFM ratings. The 32/36 is only one size, IIRC, 25 mm Pri /27mm Sec


Image
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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