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272 cam + auto-tranny = High stall torque converter?

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cfmustang
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272 cam + auto-tranny = High stall torque converter?

Post #1 by cfmustang » Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:55 pm

When I went to pick up my car from the machanic a week or so ago, he warned me that I may need a higher stall torque converter. He said that if he had known that the machine shop was putting in that high a duration cam, he would have recomended one while the engine was still out, but he didn't notice it till he started up the engine and took it for a test run.

Sure enough, it it tought to drive. When the car is in gear and the brake is engaged...it stalls. I had to put it in neutral at stop lights.

Has anyone else had experience with this? Does anyone else have a automatic, 272 cam, etc ? Did you have a similar experience and if you did , how did you fix it? If I do replace the converter, will this adversly effect anything else?

Any input you guys have would really help!
-Chris

'66 Vintage Burgundy Mustang coupe
200 cid with .030 overbore and head milled .060"
Clifford dual outlet header through turbo mufflers.
Clifford Weber 2bbl adapter with a Weber 38/38 DGES
Classic Inlines 264 110* HSP cam
1.75 Intake & 1.50 Exhaust SI values (undercut and a 3 angle valve job)
Mallory Unilite and Flamethrower II coil
C-4 Automatic, stock converter.

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Post #2 by addo » Tue Apr 06, 2004 5:46 pm

The high stall can have the effect of making shifts feel softer (a shift kit compensates for this). But if the difference between stock and your converter needs is small, this probably won't rate as an issue.

Regards, Adam.

Guest

Post #3 by Guest » Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:17 pm

Whats your idle speed in park set at?? Mines around 900-1000 rpm's. Works for me! :wink:

Later,

Doug

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cfmustang
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Post #4 by cfmustang » Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:20 am

If I remember correctly, it was around 1000 rpm. Maybe a wee bit higher. I don't think the carb is tuned exactly yet, but this was happening when the car was cold and after it had warmed up.

Doug, have you had any problems like this? Is it my carb tuning? The exhuast smells like it is running rich. The car didn't have this problem when I first put the cam in on the first rebuild. Now that the valve work has been done and the car seems to be breathing much better, it is a serious issue. It is darn near undrivable.

I would hate to have to go through the hassle (and money) of swapping out the converter if it is not necessary.

-Chris
-Chris

'66 Vintage Burgundy Mustang coupe
200 cid with .030 overbore and head milled .060"
Clifford dual outlet header through turbo mufflers.
Clifford Weber 2bbl adapter with a Weber 38/38 DGES
Classic Inlines 264 110* HSP cam
1.75 Intake & 1.50 Exhaust SI values (undercut and a 3 angle valve job)
Mallory Unilite and Flamethrower II coil
C-4 Automatic, stock converter.

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Post #5 by xctasy » Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:23 am

I don't think it will be an issue at all. The cam has to be big, and the diff ratio pretty tall, to screw things up.

The carb tunning should yield more low-end torque than you banked on.
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Post #6 by cfmustang » Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:37 pm

I was thinking the cam was too big...

Xecute, are you saying to get the higher stall torque converter or that the problem is just carb tuning?
-Chris

'66 Vintage Burgundy Mustang coupe
200 cid with .030 overbore and head milled .060"
Clifford dual outlet header through turbo mufflers.
Clifford Weber 2bbl adapter with a Weber 38/38 DGES
Classic Inlines 264 110* HSP cam
1.75 Intake & 1.50 Exhaust SI values (undercut and a 3 angle valve job)
Mallory Unilite and Flamethrower II coil
C-4 Automatic, stock converter.

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Post #7 by xctasy » Thu Apr 08, 2004 5:51 am

There are seven things to check:-

1.If your idle jets are smaller than 65 (0.65 mm) and the car boggs offline, then the first thing to check is the carburation. The progression from idle to the main cicuits chipping in is important with a 38 Weber. They have very small 27 mm throttle venturis, so it has great low end air speed. The cam and carb look like a good choice, but if the carb is wrongly jetted, then that's the first thing to check!


2.If there is lots of compression (10:1) and the cam has 50 thou lift figures under 210 at 50 thou on the exhast, then it most likely won't be a problem. This means the engine has good effective compression. The litmus test for this is how much compression the engine has in psi when cranking. If it's quite high, above 130 and below 185, then its likely to be able to idle quite well.

3. The idle vaccum should be above 15 inches of Hg at about 800-900 rpm. If its 10-15, it'll be lousy, and the cam is too big.

4. Wild cams in a poorer breathing head are not an issue as much as it is with very deap breathing heads. If the air speed is quite high because of small ports and a fairly restrictive intake, then quite wild cams are able to be used. Ford couldn'r use any thing wilder than a 270 degree cam in a 351 Clevleland because the combination of huge ports and a long duration cam made them lousy to drive with poor idle vaccum. 289's and 427's, with fairly small ports, could cope with huge duration cams with autos. Same with your 200. Poor off idle torque (twisting force too low compared to stock) is a function of a big cam with poor air speed. Bigger the ports, lower the air speed.

5. The torque converter may already be fairly loose anyway. As soon as you increase torque, you get a higher stall speed than stock. If a stock 200 with a 252 total duration cam has 160 lb-ft of torque at 2200 rpm, then then a worked 200 with a 272 duration cam may have 205 lb-ft at 3000 rpm. But at 2200 rpm, it'll still have great dollops of low-end torque. It's all to do with the neat thing sixes do that V8's don't. They always like to slog at lower revs more than V8's do.

6. Our sixes have short rods which produce better effective compression. Since the stock I6 has less than 8.5:1 compression to start with, any cam upgrade is often grouped with a compression upgrade. This is whats happened with yours.

7. If you have tuned all the rest of this stuff right, then your only other option is to consider an offset keyway or special cam sprocket and chain to degree the cam back a little. Most stock cams work well were the dots are on the timing teeth. Often, high duration cams need lots of work on getting the timing advanced or retarded by a degree or so. It makes a massive difference to how the car runs at the low-end.
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Post #8 by cfmustang » Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:49 pm

Wow, thanks for the answer! That is a lot to digest though. I'm a rank amature at this (had virtually all the work done by machine shops), so it will take a bit to sort all this out.

Unfortuantely, I wont be able to look into much of this until I can get the car home from storage in a couple of weeks.

1) I can say that it did not appear to be bogging off the line. In fact, it was quite snappy. It is just when I engage the brakes while in gear. I don't know the idle jet sizes off the top of my head.

2) The head has been milled .060 and the block was decked to true it up, but I don't know what head gasket the machine shop used so I am not sure what my compression would be. I will have to check the compression when I get the car home.

Like I said, I'll have to wait on the rest but if you don't mind, I may need to pick your brain on some of this when it comes time to do some testing...
-Chris

'66 Vintage Burgundy Mustang coupe
200 cid with .030 overbore and head milled .060"
Clifford dual outlet header through turbo mufflers.
Clifford Weber 2bbl adapter with a Weber 38/38 DGES
Classic Inlines 264 110* HSP cam
1.75 Intake & 1.50 Exhaust SI values (undercut and a 3 angle valve job)
Mallory Unilite and Flamethrower II coil
C-4 Automatic, stock converter.

Guest

Post #9 by Guest » Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:41 pm

I'd do a little carb tuning and maybe double check your timing? Mines set around 12 degrees at idle and I'm running 38 degrees total IIRC...

When it goes into gear, it drops to around 650-700 rpms. I can idle it down further, but the car starts to shake and it kinda lunges against the brakes! :D :D

Drive it, then pull the plugs and see if its running rich or lean? You shouldnt be smelling any gassy smell at idle :wink:

A stall convertor will help, but it should idle allright without one!!

Later,

Doug

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272 cam + auto-tranny = High stall torque converter

Post #10 by wsa111 » Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:11 pm

chris, follow the advise from xecute & mustang geezer. they are right on target with your problem.
the other choice would be to get the camshaft from mike at fspp the 264 with 214 degrees at .050 but get a 112 lobe center rather than the 110 lobe center you have now from clifford. that will change the overlap between intake opening & exhaust closing to give you a smoother idle with more vacuum. but you will see a decrease in low to midrange torque.
very slight though,you will have to make the choice
hope this helps william :D
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Post #11 by cfmustang » Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:02 pm

I really appreciate the advice guys! Looks like it is time for me to finally learn some rudimentary tuning skills (timeing, carb, etc).

I can say that the garage said that they had to time it by vacume, but he thought they had it almost spot on. At the very least, I suspect the carb is partially to blame because the exhaust smells REALLY rich...even at idol.

I'm going to see if I can speed up the time-table for bringing the car home, because I am dying to get working on this.

By the way, I haven't gotten around to installing a Pertronix and a better coil. DO you think that would help?

-Chris
-Chris

'66 Vintage Burgundy Mustang coupe
200 cid with .030 overbore and head milled .060"
Clifford dual outlet header through turbo mufflers.
Clifford Weber 2bbl adapter with a Weber 38/38 DGES
Classic Inlines 264 110* HSP cam
1.75 Intake & 1.50 Exhaust SI values (undercut and a 3 angle valve job)
Mallory Unilite and Flamethrower II coil
C-4 Automatic, stock converter.

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Post #12 by cfmustang » Thu Apr 08, 2004 9:26 pm

Quick update....I just checked my paperwork and the carb is a 32/36, not a 38. I don't know if that makes a difference or not.
-Chris

'66 Vintage Burgundy Mustang coupe
200 cid with .030 overbore and head milled .060"
Clifford dual outlet header through turbo mufflers.
Clifford Weber 2bbl adapter with a Weber 38/38 DGES
Classic Inlines 264 110* HSP cam
1.75 Intake & 1.50 Exhaust SI values (undercut and a 3 angle valve job)
Mallory Unilite and Flamethrower II coil
C-4 Automatic, stock converter.

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Post #13 by mustang6 » Fri Apr 09, 2004 12:19 am

This is almost a shot in the dark with all the focus on the engine components, but I couldn't help but notice you keep saying the engine has this idling problem when in gear with the brakes engaged. You don't by chance have power brakes do you? I had a problem like this that drove me crazy once and it was a leaking power brake booster that caused such vacuum leaks with the brakes depressed (while in gear) that the engine would stall out.
Scott

68 Mustang 200 ci, Aussie 250-2V head, Dual Headers, Comp Cams 252H, DSII w/MSD 6AL, T-5, V8 suspension.

65 Ranchero 200 ci, late 170 head, Autolite 1101, 3.03 3 speed, Maverick 8" 4 lug rear with 3.55 gears.

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Post #14 by cfmustang » Fri Apr 09, 2004 7:20 am

Manual brakes...but good thought. I would never had thought of that.
-Chris

'66 Vintage Burgundy Mustang coupe
200 cid with .030 overbore and head milled .060"
Clifford dual outlet header through turbo mufflers.
Clifford Weber 2bbl adapter with a Weber 38/38 DGES
Classic Inlines 264 110* HSP cam
1.75 Intake & 1.50 Exhaust SI values (undercut and a 3 angle valve job)
Mallory Unilite and Flamethrower II coil
C-4 Automatic, stock converter.

6popper

Post #15 by 6popper » Fri Apr 09, 2004 9:47 am

I'm guessing your engine uses unported vacuum..with that cam your in gear vacuum signal at idle is going to be really low, you are going to need to up your initial timing. If you really want it to run great though plug the vacuum and recurve the distributor to be mechanical only with an initial of 12 degrees and start with the medium weights and springs from the recurve kit as a starting point. That ought to take care of it

Guest

Post #16 by Guest » Tue May 25, 2004 5:49 pm

is a Weber 32/36 enough carb for that motor/cam?

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Post #17 by plastic-idol » Wed May 26, 2004 5:39 am

I'm having the same problem with mine. Everything is completely stock. Idle speed is around 750 in gear, and timing is set at 12*. If you figure this out, let me know.
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Post #18 by xctasy » Wed May 26, 2004 5:46 am

The 32/36 is able to run over 125 hp if the cam is designed to scavenge the fuel air mix. I think its too small. In OZ, we found a 350 or 500 or bigger DGAS 38 was best with wilder engines with bigger cams or 250 engines.

In my opinion, it's all carb turning. I just had another think on it.

The fuel pressure is most likley too high if its a Weber. The US Holley Weber 5200 was different in the fuel pressure requirement, but the carbs look similar. Before wasting any money, please get the carb that is there sorted. Fuel pressure on geniune Weber made carbs found in early Ford Pinto 2000's didn't like lots of pressure. A pressure test showing over 5 psi will be the start of a problem. I'd find a way of limiting it to 2.5 or 3 psi.

There are also specs for float level. The idle bleeds and other items differ, but the problem is most likely to be fuel delivery or metering problem if all the ignition advice has been followed.

Sorry I can't be more specific. Take a copy of these posts, and see a good mechanic or car tuner and get some advice. Anytime a car runs rich, it's because of some basic problem listed here.

Hang in there. It's a great car that needs just a little sorting!
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

panic

Post #19 by panic » Thu May 27, 2004 12:02 am

More initial spark lead.

Guest

Post #20 by Guest » Thu May 27, 2004 1:42 am

Something out of place I see is a lack of (or mention of) an upgraded distributor. The stock '66 "load-o-matic" distributor is vacuum advance only and needs the original Autolite 1100 carb with a spark control valve to operate properly. What willl happen is that you will actually loose ignition advance as you hit the throttle. That's no good with a big cam and stock converter. Do you still have this original distributor?

I wouldn't be surprised if you don't see an improvement by upgrading to either a Duraspark distributor or just getting a '68-'73 points distributor with mechanical and vacuum advance. If you already got it, the earlier stle of Pertronix Ignitor should interchange with the '68 and later distributor.

Guest

Post #21 by Guest » Thu May 27, 2004 3:21 pm

...what xecute said...
Also, chances are that the manifold vacuum is just a little low for the power valve that is presently in the carb: this is common when long duration cams are added to limited-intake engines, like these 200s.

My 2 cent's worth: make sure the float level is not too high, either from excessive fuel pressure or wear, and go down 1 or 2 steps on the power valve. Auto-trans cars need lower power valve numbers than manual cars, all else being equal. If that carb came from a manual-trans setup, it probably needs a little tweaking to make the power valve less likely to drop open until your foot is further into it. :wink:

Guest

Post #22 by Guest » Thu May 27, 2004 8:54 pm

cfmustang,

Have you fixed all the problems? How is the car running now? I'm reaaly interested on how this all works out. Keep us(ME) updated.

Thanks.

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Post #23 by cfmustang » Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:01 pm

Sorry I didn't get back to you guys. I was off in Vegas getting married!

I haven't really any chance to work on the car since the initial post (moved, married, etc.) but I am hoping to start tinkering this weekend.

I can say that one weekend I got to take it out for an extended drive. Once the car really warmed up, the stalling problem seemed to nearly disappear. I could stop at a few lights and leave it in gear without it stalling, but it was right on the threshhold. I could also feel it surging to where the brakes were struggleing to hold the line.

Unfortunately, while crusing on the freeway, I found out my driver's side rear brake shoes were dragging and started smoking up a storm (going to fix that tonight, weather permitting).

To answer a few questions, the distributor is stock. I purchased a Ignitor II and Flamethrower II that I was going to install this weekend, but should I hold out till after I get the carb problems worked out?

As for the carb, I bought it new from Clifford (back in the day when they sold the 32/36) and besides some idle adjustments, I am assuming it should be setup/tuned to the factory Weber settings.

Like I said, I was running this carb with the same setup years ago without this issue. It was after I had the head work done (better breathing?) that this started.

My biggest problem is that I know nothing about carbs! I have the Weber manual but it is written with the assumption that the reader has a basic understanding of how the carbs work. Anyone know a good book for beginners?
Last edited by cfmustang on Thu Jun 03, 2004 8:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
-Chris

'66 Vintage Burgundy Mustang coupe
200 cid with .030 overbore and head milled .060"
Clifford dual outlet header through turbo mufflers.
Clifford Weber 2bbl adapter with a Weber 38/38 DGES
Classic Inlines 264 110* HSP cam
1.75 Intake & 1.50 Exhaust SI values (undercut and a 3 angle valve job)
Mallory Unilite and Flamethrower II coil
C-4 Automatic, stock converter.

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Post #24 by 80broncoman » Wed Jun 02, 2004 3:19 pm

panic wrote:More initial spark lead.


I think if it not pinging then the timing is not to high.
stock timing numbers for a 66 stang might be right on if you could find some fuel like we had in the 60's
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Post #25 by Guest » Wed Jun 02, 2004 6:19 pm

CF - You need to replace your distributor for one with mechanical advance. This is going to help off the line and give you some more power alltogether. You should be able to use that Ignitor II you bought with a '68-'73 distributor. I woulnd't mess with anything on the carb until you get the timing (curve) squared away.

Guest

Post #26 by Guest » Wed Jun 02, 2004 8:41 pm

cfmustang wrote:Sorry I didn't get back to you guys. I was off in Vegas getting married!



Congrats CF.

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Post #27 by cfmustang » Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:07 pm

Thanks! It has been a busy few weeks...

Is that 68-73 (does it matter if it is for the 200 or 250?) distributor a direct swap or are there any modifications? i.e. different connections to the carb, coil, etc.

Any help would be appreciated...
-Chris

'66 Vintage Burgundy Mustang coupe
200 cid with .030 overbore and head milled .060"
Clifford dual outlet header through turbo mufflers.
Clifford Weber 2bbl adapter with a Weber 38/38 DGES
Classic Inlines 264 110* HSP cam
1.75 Intake & 1.50 Exhaust SI values (undercut and a 3 angle valve job)
Mallory Unilite and Flamethrower II coil
C-4 Automatic, stock converter.

Guest

Post #28 by Guest » Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:05 am

Any '68-'73 distributor from a 170, 200, or 250 will work fine. They use the small female terminal cap so all your wiring is the same, will work fine with the Flamethrower coil, and just run the vacuum line to the ported vacuum nipple on the Weber.

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Post #29 by cfmustang » Thu Jun 03, 2004 11:28 am

After doing some quick research, it looks like the Ignitor II I bought will not work on the newer distributor. There are two models. One for use with the smog pump and one without. Mine does not have the smog pump so the shaft is solid with one side flattened.

Does anyone have the 68-72 dist. and can tell me what the rotor shaft looks like? Is it solid with a flat side or is it hollow with a notch in one side (kind of like the letter "C")?

Also, is the 12127C distributor on this page : http://store.cal-mustang.com/cm_able/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Product_ID=3617&CATID=19 the correct distributor?
Last edited by cfmustang on Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-Chris

'66 Vintage Burgundy Mustang coupe
200 cid with .030 overbore and head milled .060"
Clifford dual outlet header through turbo mufflers.
Clifford Weber 2bbl adapter with a Weber 38/38 DGES
Classic Inlines 264 110* HSP cam
1.75 Intake & 1.50 Exhaust SI values (undercut and a 3 angle valve job)
Mallory Unilite and Flamethrower II coil
C-4 Automatic, stock converter.

Guest

Post #30 by Guest » Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:10 pm

CF,

Why not a duraspark distributor?

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Post #31 by cfmustang » Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:48 pm

Seemed more complex than I wanted to get into in the first place. The pertronix is so simple. Besides, I perfered the look of the original.

Also, now I have the money sunk into the Ignitor II. If I have to, I can probably exchange the one version for the other.
-Chris

'66 Vintage Burgundy Mustang coupe
200 cid with .030 overbore and head milled .060"
Clifford dual outlet header through turbo mufflers.
Clifford Weber 2bbl adapter with a Weber 38/38 DGES
Classic Inlines 264 110* HSP cam
1.75 Intake & 1.50 Exhaust SI values (undercut and a 3 angle valve job)
Mallory Unilite and Flamethrower II coil
C-4 Automatic, stock converter.

Guest

Post #32 by Guest » Thu Jun 03, 2004 1:30 pm

CF - I bought a Pertronix for a '68 distributor and realized I had a '66 distributor. I installed it anyhow and it worked fine. That was 5 years ago though...

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Post #33 by cfmustang » Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:19 pm

It looks like the difference is if it will fit on the rotor shaft. I'll just have to try it and see if it fits.

In your case, it appears that all 68s use the smog pump shaft and some 66s use the smog pump shaft. It is possible that they were the same for you. However, my 66 is non-smog so it looks like they will be different.

Won't know till I see one though.
-Chris

'66 Vintage Burgundy Mustang coupe
200 cid with .030 overbore and head milled .060"
Clifford dual outlet header through turbo mufflers.
Clifford Weber 2bbl adapter with a Weber 38/38 DGES
Classic Inlines 264 110* HSP cam
1.75 Intake & 1.50 Exhaust SI values (undercut and a 3 angle valve job)
Mallory Unilite and Flamethrower II coil
C-4 Automatic, stock converter.

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Location: Cleveland, OH

Post #34 by cfmustang » Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:35 am

Inliner,

Just to clarify the terminology before I buy. You mentioned a mechanical & vacuum advance. When I have been pricing the distributor, I have only seen single and dual vacuum advance.

Is the dual vacuum advance the same as the mechanical & vacuum you mentioned?

I found it at Autozone for $38 bucks, but they have to order it so I wanted to get it on order after work today... That way I would get it in two business days and it gives me a chance to try and tune the carb a bit this weekend first.

Thanks for all your help

-Chris
-Chris

'66 Vintage Burgundy Mustang coupe
200 cid with .030 overbore and head milled .060"
Clifford dual outlet header through turbo mufflers.
Clifford Weber 2bbl adapter with a Weber 38/38 DGES
Classic Inlines 264 110* HSP cam
1.75 Intake & 1.50 Exhaust SI values (undercut and a 3 angle valve job)
Mallory Unilite and Flamethrower II coil
C-4 Automatic, stock converter.

Guest

Post #35 by Guest » Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:18 pm

CF - Order the distributor with "single advance". They are talking about the vacuum advance portion. Both have a mechanical advance system, but the dual advance has 2 ports on the vacuum canister for a manifold vacuum source (which actually retards timing during idle and decceleration).

Just tell them you have a '70 Mav with a 200 and need a "single advance" type. That should narrow it down to what you need.

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Post #36 by cfmustang » Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:57 am

Just a quick update.

Didn't get to start my engine tuning because the brakes became a much bigger issue (both front cylnders leaking, rear wheel bearing bad - leaking grease was causing the smoke, and a total brake job required. Oy!)

However, when I took it out for another spin on Saturday morning, it was running much better! Now, it is still running way too rich because when the car was idleing in the garage (with the door open, obviously) my wife could smell the gas inside the house. Once, it warmed up (10 minutes) I was able to put it in gear with the brakes engaged and no stalling.

Now, the idle is still really rough and it seems to be more than just cam lope. I mean the engine is just plain shaking. Also, my high speed idle is way too high (unfortunately, my tach is not working since the rebuild so I have to get my hands on one to get some numbers) but the low speed idle isn't too far off.

I think my new plan of attack is this. Weber has instructions on resetting the carb published everywhere, so I am first going to take the carb back to square one and get that tuned the best I can. From there, I will tackle any distributor issues, but it seems to me that this would be affecting acceleration and not idle, isn't that correct?

Could the original stalling in gear issues be related to break in? If I am on the wrong track, please let me know...
Last edited by cfmustang on Mon Jun 07, 2004 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-Chris

'66 Vintage Burgundy Mustang coupe
200 cid with .030 overbore and head milled .060"
Clifford dual outlet header through turbo mufflers.
Clifford Weber 2bbl adapter with a Weber 38/38 DGES
Classic Inlines 264 110* HSP cam
1.75 Intake & 1.50 Exhaust SI values (undercut and a 3 angle valve job)
Mallory Unilite and Flamethrower II coil
C-4 Automatic, stock converter.

Guest

Post #37 by Guest » Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:06 pm

CF,

What's your rear gear ratio?

Dennis

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Post #38 by cfmustang » Mon Jun 07, 2004 2:51 pm

The stock 7 1/4" rear with 4 lug drums, so that should be the 2.73 gears.
-Chris

'66 Vintage Burgundy Mustang coupe
200 cid with .030 overbore and head milled .060"
Clifford dual outlet header through turbo mufflers.
Clifford Weber 2bbl adapter with a Weber 38/38 DGES
Classic Inlines 264 110* HSP cam
1.75 Intake & 1.50 Exhaust SI values (undercut and a 3 angle valve job)
Mallory Unilite and Flamethrower II coil
C-4 Automatic, stock converter.

Guest

Post #39 by Guest » Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:50 pm

CF,

Jack always says that most "too rich" conditions may be caused by bad timing or other ignition problem. Maybe changing out the load-a-matic dizzy for a newer one like Inliner suggested is the best move. Anyhow I'm totally interested in this cause I may go this same route with the biggish 272 cam and C4.

DB

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272 cam + auto-tranny = High stall torque converter?

Post #40 by wsa111 » Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:06 pm

if you put the pertronix II in the distributor, take it out & install a pertronix I, or put in the durospark distributor. you can look at my previous posts on this pertronix problem. i don't know if i got a defective one, but from the number of posts on rough idle i beleive pertronix has a problem with the #II unit. also get a full 12 volts to the coil by bypassing the resistor. hope this helps with your problem. if it does not help you have furthur problems with your carburetion & or your initial advance setup. the wilder you go with the cam it requires more initial advance but remember not to go over 36-38 degrees total. thats the initial plus the centrifigul advance. if what i stated is beyond your expertice, get some professional help.
if this turns out to be a weber problem get some advise from xtaxi or addo. these fellows know this system. i can help with the 1100 or the 2300 holley carbs. hope this helps. william
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Post #41 by cfmustang » Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:50 pm

The Pertronix II is not in yet, but I will keep those tips in mind.

As for the distributor, from what I have been reading it seems that the newer unit with mechanical advance is to help with acceleration because the big cam will cause low vacuum on acceleration. The vacuum should be better at idle, right?

That is why I was thinking that the first step would be to tune the carb for best idle and in gear idle. After that, working on the dizzy issues would be the next priority. The questions is, should I set the timing before I add the Pertronix or after?

Am I on the right track?
-Chris

'66 Vintage Burgundy Mustang coupe
200 cid with .030 overbore and head milled .060"
Clifford dual outlet header through turbo mufflers.
Clifford Weber 2bbl adapter with a Weber 38/38 DGES
Classic Inlines 264 110* HSP cam
1.75 Intake & 1.50 Exhaust SI values (undercut and a 3 angle valve job)
Mallory Unilite and Flamethrower II coil
C-4 Automatic, stock converter.

stude3

does the carb have a power valve?

Post #42 by stude3 » Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:29 pm

this is often a problem with longer duration cams. the power valve drops open due to lack of vacuum. richens it up too much. so it loads up and stumbles to a halt. go to a lower value power valve. or in some cases it is plugged completely if there are other circuits which will cover.

forget the loose converter that will kill your mileage.

dont know if this works on these carbs but i had a similar experience on a holley/weber on a vw with a big cam. we ended up drilling a .050 extra hole in the throttle plate to lean out the idle; it moved the relative position of the butterfly to the idle and transfer port.

just some more ideas to chew on. frankie

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Post #43 by cfmustang » Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:27 pm

Okay... Sorry about the long delay, but I finally got my hands on my dad's old tuneup tools.

For starters, I pulled the vacuum line from the base of the carb and threw a vacuum gauge on there. Now, the engine was not completely warm and the idle was swinging pretty radically, but the vacuum was reading between 8 - 13 (8 on the low end of the swing, 13 on the higher end).

Now, when I pulled the vacuum line I didn't seem to notice that much difference in the way it was running. However, it would not start with the line removed.

I also pulled the #1 plug and it wasn't as bad as I thought. I expected it to be really sooty, but it didn't look to bad to me. I'll try and get some pictures up in the next day or two.

Still having a hard time getting the RPMs for you guys to give you more info. My interior tach is shot. I did find a old Craftsman Dwell, Volts & RPM gauge mixed in with his tools, but I wasn't sure where to hook this up to. It has two leads. A wide green alligator clip and a narrow black aligator clip.

Anyone know where I hook this up to?
-Chris

'66 Vintage Burgundy Mustang coupe
200 cid with .030 overbore and head milled .060"
Clifford dual outlet header through turbo mufflers.
Clifford Weber 2bbl adapter with a Weber 38/38 DGES
Classic Inlines 264 110* HSP cam
1.75 Intake & 1.50 Exhaust SI values (undercut and a 3 angle valve job)
Mallory Unilite and Flamethrower II coil
C-4 Automatic, stock converter.

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