Borg-Warner T5 questions

1) I'd like to put one behind a 144/170/200. I'm sure this has been discussed a multitude of times before. I searched and searched but couldn't find a comprehensive post, however. Can someone either give me a quick rundown or point me toward a post or a website that gives this good coverage?

2) I've heard of using V8 Mustang T5s with S10 tailshafts for shifter location and just the S10 T5. Years ago now, I read about a fellow using the V6 Mustang T5 (this was behind a Ford Flathead V8) and he claimed the shifter location was almost as good as the S10 - is there any truth to this?

3) Once the I-6/5-speed combination is together, what's a good gear ratio for daily driving (i.e. a compromise between running with modern traffic and fuel-efficiency)? I'm not looking to build a hot rod, per se, just a good-looking, dead-simple, reliable and pre-'72 daily driver.

Thanks.

here one discussion.
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... ghlight=t5

Thanks for the link. That appears to be more of a brief discussion about fuel economy than transmission swapping. I'd like to get the technical details of the actual swap, if I could. The comments about electronic fuel pumps and electric fans versus their mechanical counterparts are interesting. No EFI for me, though, I'm too much of a luddite for that.

I put a 1999 V6 T5 behind an inline 250 in a 1969 Mustang. Had to change the input shaft but the swap was very easy because the bellhousing for the 250 will bolt right up with an adapter. When I changed to a cable clutch (which I highly recommend from the start) I used a bellhousing from a later model 5.0 Mustang without an adapter. I think the 200 needs a different adapter for its bellhousing, but the guys to get help from are at Modern Driveline.

http://moderndriveline.com/catalog/full_conversion.htm

They are helpful and easy to work with.
Good luck!
-Joey

Hi David,
Welcome aboard!

Things to keep in mind are the different bell patterns on the various I6 blocks.
The 144/170/and pre-66 200 blocks use a "small" 8 1/2" stepped flywheel and small bell.
The '66 - '80 (?) use a 9" flat flywheel and "mid-size" bell.
Somewhere around '80-'81 the 200 got the "big bell". With a few modification, it it supposed to be possible to use a 302/5.0 bell. I've never worked on one, so I don't know.

The 250s do use a 302/5.0 bell and the flywheel bolt pattern is also the same as the V-8. The flywheel is the same as the V-8 flywheel - except for the balance factor. Since the I6 is a balanced motor, you will need to use a zero balanced flywheel. FRPP has these.
Adapter plates are needed to mate a Ford pattern T5 to the small and mid-size bell. Modern Driveline carries them.

What follows concerns installing an S10 T5.

In my case, I had several S10 (GM pattern) T5s handy and found a different solution.
The engine in my Squire is a pre-66 200, so it has a small, 8-1/2" stepped flywheel and small bell pattern.

Several small pattern bells are out there, but the bell used behind the early econolines is an odd duck. It is about a half inch shorter, and has a Ford toploader transmission bolt pattern. In addition to the pile of S10 T5s I had an old toploader to GM/Muncie type adapter, which just happened to be a half inch thick.

The GM S10 T5 has a 1" x14 spline input shaft so I went through the centerforce catalog looking for a clutch that fit. Turns out there are quite a few 8-1/2" 1"x14 clutches available. They all have a larger spring pack than the stock clutch though. I had the flywheel face relieved to accomodate the spring pack when it was re-surfaced. The machinist didn't charge me much for the work, an extra twenty or so, iirc.

Another difference is the size of the T/O bearing shaft, the GM T5's is larger. I could have ordered a Ford T/O bearing shaft and installed it (they are interchangable), but I used an S10 TO bearing and just tacked the Ford clutch fork plate and spring to it in a few spots (once again because I had a couple S10 T/O bearings handy).

Once all the parts were gathered, installation was straight forward. Stock pedals worked just fine.
I had a driveshaft made with an S10 slipyoke at the front and a Ford 7.25" rear yoke in the back.

After about a year of use, I ruined the stock Ford pressure plate and was looking for a replacement. The small pressure plates are getting to be very hard to find, with most having been rebuilt several times by now. After some research, I ended up using an Alfa Romeo 215mm pressure plate. This required skimming .15" off the flywheel plate mounting surface. It's a great swap, making shifting a breeze.

A later 8" rear end swap required more drive shaft mods.

The T5 transmission is much larger on top than any of the stock transmissions used in Falcons and early Mustangs. As a result, the transmission can't sit as high in the tunnel. Everything will work fine, the pinion angles will need some careful attention. Even with the angles set perfectly, you may have driveline vibration at highway speeds. This is due to the working angles of the U-joints when the pinion angles are set to accomodate the T5's installed angle.

Some solutions are:
Drive around with the back of the car jacked up high (yuck).
Enlarge the transmission tunnel to let the T5 sit higher.
Lower the motor mounts and inch or two. This sounds fairly simple, but requires modifications to the bolt-in cross member and also requires flipping the steering linkages upside down (like in a 250 swap). With the front of he engine dropped you can raise the transmission enough to get friendly U-joint working angles.

A rear end ratio of 3.0/1 works great with the S10 ratios (first gear is 3.76/1). The Ford four banger T5s have an even shorter 1st gear of 3.97/1.
The S10 tailhousing puts the shifter well forward of the transmission tunnel brace.
Hope this helps.
Got your PM and thought I'd answer here.
Rick(wrench)

Thanks Rick, that's exactly the kind of response I was hoping for!

1) http://www.kastang.net/T5install.html

2) YOu don't need an S10 tailshaft.

3) I used a 3.20 for a long time and loved it. That was with a 4cylinder T5 though. when I upgraded to the V-8 T5, I went with a 3.40 rear end ratio and it seems to be nice.

Slade

CobraSix":4ao5whz8 said:

2) YOu don't need an S10 tailshaft.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the link. About the tailshaft - is the Mustang shifter position far enough forward to clear a bench seat? I don't really want to run buckets.

depends how tall you are. it clears my fairlane bench but I am 6'2" and drive witht eh seat nearly all the way back. if I were 5'4" I would prob have it slide forward about 4-6" forward where it wouldn't clear too well.

One other question: where is everybody getting these adapter plates? They actually look like they might be simple to fabricate anyway, but I would hate to misalign something and ruin parts.

All parts to swap as listed above:

http://moderndriveline.com/catalog/full_conversion.htm

I have a question. I have a 63 Ranchero with bucket seats and a falcon console. I have the 4 cyl mustang T5 long tail. Will it fit ok. How do I brace the cut in the hump brace? Pictures would be great.

Yow. That's big money. Besides, you don't get to scrounge in the junkyard if you buy all the new stuff. Sounds more fun just to buy the adapter plate.

I don't know about the bench seat. Where is the shift hole now? It lines up in the same position (though it is tight). if the shifter runs too low for 2nd and 4th gear (in relation to the bench), you can always replace the stock shifter with a short throw.

Slade

I have the V6 T5 in my '63 Ranchero and it clears the bench seat just fine w/o the S10 tail shaft. I'm 5'9", but have the seat back. We just turned the V6 input shaft end down to V8 specs. V6 has larger input shaft bearings. I did use the E-Van bellhousing and stock clutch linkage.

I have a 2.78 rear gear and that has to go. I have a 3.0 and a 3.25. I will go with the 3.25 as it needs some RPM. I'm running an Isky cam and other mods.

Hotrodbob, thanks for the response. Do you have a picture of the shifter location in the floor? With the E-Van bell, do you still need the adjuster plate and tran mount? Did you cut the hump support brace? If so, how did you resupport it?

I have 200I6 with a cam, headers and 3-1 barrell set up and 4 cyl T5. I was thinking of 3.25 or 3.40 rear w/trac-lock or other locking type spool.

I too, have a 70 Mav and 74 Grabber. The Grabber is going to a 250/C4 tire burning, cool car. I need to finish the ranchero first.

I used a 4cyl T5 from a 1989 Mustang. Sent it to Hanlon Motorsports in PA to be rebuilt. They rebuild these trannies for racing applications as well as street and I figured if anyone would know the weak spots in these trannies, they would. I also decided if I was going to go to the trouble of swapping in this T5, it was going to be completely rebuilt first.

I have a '66 Mustang with the 200. It had the 2.77 3spd originally and it has the 3.20:1 rear gears. I think just a bit lower would be better around here (rolling hills and river valleys).

I used the original bellhousing and clutch linkage. One of Al's adapter plates and a homemade tranny cross member. I had a local driveshaft maker build a new driveshaft using the small yoke at the differential. Throwout bearing is the '67 3.03 unit. Shifter fits right where it is supposed to. Al's adapter tilts the tranny slightly towards the driver to have the shifter come out in the center of the shifter hole.

I modified the original shifter handle to bolt on the T5 stub. This way the interior appears stock. I then used a 5spd knob I got at the local junkyard.

Excellent work,I66coupe! It's cool when it looks stock but performs much better. Those original Mustang shifter handles work well-I did the same thing with one to clear the bench seat in the '60 Falcon I just swapped a T5 in.

Terry

Falcon60, any pictures of your shifter location?
Where can I get an Al's adapter plate? What do you have to do to fabricate a tranny mount for the T5?

Al has since sold his adapter business. I think Modern Driveline has them now.

Funny that you kept the original shift handle. I had planned on adapting an old Mr. Gasket 3-speed shift handle for that period accessory look.

That looks sharp guys and thanks for the information on the 'Stang V6 5-speeds, looks like I've got a few options.