updated...TIMING COVER IS OFF ... SEE PICTURES..

69.5Mav":l32n42t6 said:
Oh my

We haven't heard from Reweb since sunday night. I hope he hasn't done something silly like Auto/cide. Please say it aint so.

69.5mav

He probably just has a life, unlike all of us.
 
Bort62":nw36s1cw said:
69.5Mav":nw36s1cw said:
Oh my

We haven't heard from Reweb since sunday night. I hope he hasn't done something silly like Auto/cide. Please say it aint so.

69.5mav

He probably just has a life, unlike all of us.

Hey, I just don't do much at work :unsure:
 
wallaka":2xxnub1a said:
Bort62":2xxnub1a said:
69.5Mav":2xxnub1a said:
Oh my

We haven't heard from Reweb since sunday night. I hope he hasn't done something silly like Auto/cide. Please say it aint so.

69.5mav

He probably just has a life, unlike all of us.

Hey, I just don't do much at work :unsure:

You either?

Actually, I do plenty... I am just a proficient multi-tasker.

Yeah, that's it...
 
wallaka Bort62

I'm trapped out here in New Jersy witnessing Validation testing of a control rack for a satalite launch.

Realy boring, nothing to do most of the day.


69.5mav
 
I'm gonna agree with the DSII post though. The Load-O is just sooo amazingly intensely crappy. When my car was running terribly and everybody was telling me it was an carb problem, even dudes at shops and everything. Then I said screw it and borrowed someone's pertronix setup, with their distributor and all, and it just fired right up and purred. I swapped to electronic ignition that weekend and haven't had a single problem since. =) The Load-O just doesn't stay in adjustment, the springs are faulty, the rotor clip that bends out to keep the rotor in place is shady at best... =P
 
Bort62":rw6tbnw2 said:
BIGREDRASA":rw6tbnw2 said:
A stretched/loose timing chain won't make the marks on both sides of the gear teeth like we saw. Only extreme tightness will.

I would challenge that assertation. I also maintain that no amount of relative movement between the timing gears that doesn't result in complete failure will affect the ignition timing significantly. If your ignition timing is changing, and the timing gears are still mechanically connected... then it's a problem with the distributor/distributor drive.

The suggestion of a damaged distributor drive gear is attractive, but I also entertain the idea of a faulty SCV valve. I do not recall if he ever tried static timing w/o vacuum advance.

If the SCV valve were improperly switching between manifold and ported vacuum, it could explain a sudden shift of as much as 20* or more.

I'd really like to know if he has tried to take the vacuum circuit out of the mix. i've asked, but might have missed the answer. as far as losing spark, if you move the dist. to a point where the rotor isn't on a dist. pin there wouldn't be a spark. (at least where you want it.)

I forget, did this all start with a burned resistor wire?
 
BIGREDRASA":3m0d9dx1 said:
Let's just look at the evidence. A stretched/loose timing chain won't make the marks on both sides of the gear teeth like we saw. Only extreme tightness will. No coil, DS II, or muffler bearings will cause that. As Sir William of Okham said, the simplest reason is usually the correct answer. Not common or frequent, but simplest. The marks on the teeth are from excess tension, and that is one consequence of the two sprockets' distance changing. Just use the starter to turn the engine over and watch to see what happens to the chain and gears.


the cam and crank are either leading or lagging. why wouldn't backlash from a stretched chain cause that type of wear ?

that's not his biggest problem, but it is a problem ;)
 
Wow...I was away for a bit. Thanks for keeping the post alive. I have ordered the new chain and gears. Should be here tomorrow. I am going to change the chain now while it is open. I hope to never take that cover off again! I plan to keep the car until death do us part.

I would like to clarify something. I was not having a spark problem. After the car would change timing (if that is what happened) I was pointing the timing light at the car while cranking the car with a start button and key off to see were the timing went. I think the light was flashing actually just to slow for me to see anything and I did not want to kill my battery.

There was ALWAYS good strong spark...

I'm going to put the new chain in and put the car back together in the next few days. Then I will try again to figure out what the hell is going on. It is possible that by moving the distributor I am compensating for something else? Here again is the list of new parts:

Changed to a different carb,
removed pertronix 1 and went back to points,
new spark plugs,
new coil,
new rotor + cap,
new plug wires,
new fuel pump,
new fuel filters,
wiggled all wires while running,
checked firing order,
checked and re-checked point gap,
Checked plug wire + coil wire spark,
changed to rebuilt distributor +
stared at engine and prayed!"

Ad cleaned and tightened all grounds, made sure fuel line had not moved causing vapor lock...plus other stuff I can't think of.

No, I have not removed and left off the vacuum line to distributor. I will once the car is back together. It was removed and plugged while setting timing ...

I'm going to attack the car again with an open mind once I have it back together. If that does not work I suppose I may have to consider taking the car to a pro. That would be a first in 7 years. I don't even take my everyday driver to a mechanic unless I have absolutely no choice!


I really hope it isn’t a bent crank snout or screwed up cam!

Thanks again for all the help....I will let you guys know what happens
 
I'm wondering, I just noticed in your last post that you have also changed to a different carb, are you sure that the carb you put on has a spark control valve on it? If it doesn't, then your load-a-matic distributor isn't going to get the right vacuum signal at the right time. Excuse me if you've already checked this.
 
bigfordsix":3pe4fo82 said:
I'm wondering, I just noticed in your last post that you have also changed to a different carb, are you sure that the carb you put on has a spark control valve on it? If it doesn't, then your load-a-matic distributor isn't going to get the right vacuum signal at the right time. Excuse me if you've already checked this.

Thanks, it is the same carb a 1100 with scv. The advance is working. Verified by reving engine with timing light hooked up...
 
I went back through the recent posts. Lot's of info there. I have answered questions below.

Q: I have been watching both of these posts and am at a loss as to why you would have to constantly re-set the static timing on different distributors. I had a distributor with a worn bushing on a motorcycle and it would do just as you describe. I could set it, time it and drive down the road only to have it start misfiring. I would check it and it was out of adjustment again. However, unlike your problem, the distributor swap cured the problem. I don't see another distributor swap fixing your problem, it does not get any simpler than a points distributor. I have never seen what model of carburetor you are running. How much are you have to turn the distributor to get it back in time?

A: I moved the distributor about a half-inch / inch or so hard to tell. Mostly more advance? I wish a new distributor had fixed it! It really should have!!!

Q: Reweb, I'm not as experienced as Addo, but that wear on your gears is strange. I would have expected to see wear on one side of the gear teeth, not both. There is something funky going on here. You should be able to briefly run the engine for a few seconds with the timing cover off. Have someone else crank it up, while you look at the crankshaft snout and chain. Stop it, then start againg. Look closely at the chain and gears. I'm starting to think you have something really unusual going on, like a bent crankshaft snout.

A: I fear you may be right. I don’t know what to do about it though. I’m a little scared about running the engine with no radiator etc…yikes

Q: I'd have someone stand next to your car with hood open and watch to see if you crank it up on starting if the distibutor moves.
I'd go though the whole thing doing whatever it is that causes the timing to jump up or down and have some one watch it.
You might just be suprised.

A: Will do…

Q: What if the rebuild shop flipped the cam sprocket to expose the unworn side? Don't know if it would fit, but that might explain the odd wear. Either way, I don't see any issues with the cam timing, assuming the dowel pin can be observed in the cam sprocket keyway.

A: I will insect closer after I take off gears. They appear to be fine.

Q: How much end play does that cam have?

A: None that I could feel..,

Q: Have you done a compression test?
Has anything changed with your carburetor or carb settings?
When running does the motor run well or is it down on power?

A: I have not done a compression test. Newer rebuild. I guess at this point I should…
I have set fuel / air / idle many times with a different carb. I can get engine to run great then shut-it off or drive it and not so much!

Q: Have you shined a flashlight into the engine with the distro removed and looked at your cam gear? Is it destroyed or wore out?

A: I have not done this but I will. Great idea…duh on my part for not thinking of it. Although distributor gears looked perfect.

Q: Let's just look at the evidence. A stretched/loose timing chain won't make the marks on both sides of the gear teeth like we saw. Only extreme tightness will. No coil, DS II, or muffler bearings will cause that. As Sir William of Okham said, the simplest reason is usually the correct answer. Not common or frequent, but simplest. The marks on the teeth are from excess tension, and that is one consequence of the two sprockets' distance changing. Just use the starter to turn the engine over and watch to see what happens to the chain and gears

A: This is will do….

Q: What if the cam wasn't broken in properly, or lubed up right?
Could that wipe a lobe, causing these symptoms?
Those gears look odd, even thought the chain looks OK.
When I swapped my chain out we put a ton of grease on everything.

A: Not sure what to say…How do you check a cam??

Q: We haven't heard from Reweb since sunday night. I hope he hasn't done something silly like Auto/cide. Please say it aint so.

A: This is funny! Thanks. Actually I went to beach yesterday afternoon, drank beer + chatted with a few women. Good time!
 
reweb

Going to take another shot at this!

After going back and re-reading all of your previous post, I can’t help but focus in on the coil as the source of your problems.

The reason I’m drawn to that conclusion is based upon what you’ve said. To begin with you mentioned that before you started the thread you had a problem where by it was necessary to replaced the resister wire and at that that time you had +8 volts on the positive side of the coil and the car ran great. Then at some point you begin to have problems with stalling on deceleration and not starting again after the engine was shut off. When this happen you mentioned that you were seeing +5 volts on the positive side of the coil. You then indicated that you were going to hook the coil directly to the 12-volt battery. You then later reported that you were seeing +10.5 and that the car was now running great. Some where along the line your problems came back and then you revealed that once the car died the only way you could get it started again was by moving the distributor and that the car would not stay in time. You also indicated that your timing light didn’t work while cranking your engine once it shut off.

If you indeed did wire the coil directly to battery then perhaps you fried the coil, shorting out some of the coil winding, and causing it to overheat and stop functioning. The thing is, once the coil cools down it may work again until the next time it overheats. As I previously suggested, moving the distributor may having nothing to do with the fact that your car will start again. It may be just that the time it takes do it, allows your coil to cool down.

The fact that you reported that the car ran great when you first saw the 10.5 volts tends to make me question the whole timing issue. I don’t know if you will agree this analysis or if I've over simplified it, but that’s all I’ve got this morning!
 
cctgene":181uusj8 said:
reweb

Going to take another shot at this!

After going back and re-reading all of your previous post, I can’t help but focus in on the coil as the source of your problems.

The reason I’m drawn to that conclusion is based upon what you’ve said. To begin with you mentioned that before you started the thread you had a problem where by it was necessary to replaced the resister wire and at that that time you had +8 volts on the positive side of the coil and the car ran great. Then at some point you begin to have problems with stalling on deceleration and not starting again after the engine was shut off. When this happen you mentioned that you were seeing +5 volts on the positive side of the coil. You then indicated that you were going to hook the coil directly to the 12-volt battery. You then later reported that you were seeing +10.5 and that the car was now running great. Some where along the line your problems came back and then you revealed that once the car died the only way you could get it started again was by moving the distributor and that the car would not stay in time. You also indicated that your timing light didn’t work while cranking your engine once it shut off.

If you indeed did wire the coil directly to battery then perhaps you fried the coil, shorting out some of the coil winding, and causing it to overheat and stop functioning. The thing is, once the coil cools down it may work again until the next time it overheats. As I previously suggested, moving the distributor may having nothing to do with the fact that your car will start again. It may be just that the time it takes do it, allows your coil to cool down.

The fact that you reported that the car ran great when you first saw the 10.5 volts tends to make me question the whole timing issue. I don’t know if you will agree this analysis or if I've over simplified it, but that’s all I’ve got this morning!

Thanks for taking a shot at this. I actually did not wire the coil to 12 volts. Someone on here told me to check coil volts with car running. It was 10.5 while running as it should be with factory resistor wire attached.

It is a new coil, I checked it out with voltmeter + verified good solid spark to block. Don't think it is a coil issue. Wish it were! Before I even replaced the distributor I went completely back to basics and spent lots of time checking spark, fuel, air....

You are right though, all of this started with car appearing to run rich and dieing on deceleration.
 
reweb":2i62ei0q said:
I went back through the recent posts. Lot's of info there. I have answered questions below.

Q: We haven't heard from Reweb since sunday night. I hope he hasn't done something silly like Auto/cide. Please say it aint so.

A: This is funny! Thanks. Actually I went to beach yesterday afternoon, drank beer + chatted with a few women. Good time!

As they would say in the Land of OZ "Good on you!" Must recharge internal battery. :beer:
 
Timing is a mechanically locked relationship with the distributor, cam, and crank. Once bolted down, the static timing on an early engine can only move by changing the relationship of the cam lobe to the point rubbing block. Timing normally changes when the Load-o-matic vacuum canister pulls the point plate, moving the point plate in relation to the cam lobe.

You read that relationship by viewing the ignition event on the crank damper by means of a timing light. Timing can "appear" too change it the damper is loose. Check that the outer ring is not moving on its own. This happens pretty frequently.

Voltage level will not change timing on a purely mechanical system like an early Mustang. 1Vor 10V, it should remain the same. That said, your timing light may act up if the voltage levels are out of range. Check that it has a consistent power supply.

If the vacuum is not disconnected when the static timing is set, you will get inconsistent results. It will look like the static timing has changed when in actuality it was simply a slight difference in vacuum causing a slightly different movement of the point plate. On a Load-o-matic equipped car you MUST disconnect that line to set static timing.

Another possibility is a stuck, worn timing plate. The plate rides on little plastic buttons. Often these are not replaced on a remanufactured distributor so the plate will get hung and then eventually release. Set it once, come back later and the car is running like crap. Don't count on a remanufactured unit to be 100% good.

A worn distributor shaft will give you inconsistent timing readings. spark scatter caused by a wobbly shaft can look like timing jumping around at idle. Again, don't count on a reman distributor to be 100% good.

The loose timing chain could possibly cause timing to jump around, and the lash of a loose chain could also cause wear on both sides of the teeth. I have several old sets to testify to this. A really loose chain can make the timing look like its jumping around when you hold the light on a running engine. You will usually hear the chain at that point. I have never seen one loose enough to "jump" teeth. That would probably take a combination of very worn teeth and very loose chain to happen.

So, at this point, here's what I would do.
1. change the cam, gears, chain, and seals since you have it apart.
2. inspect the distributor for end play, worn shaft, stuck breaker plate, worn slider buttons.
3. inspect the vacuum advance canister to make sure its not leaking.
4. buy a good cap and rotor.
5. inspect the SCV to ensure its not leaking or tipping you up.
6. re-time with the vacuum line disconnected

and somewhere in there, do a compression check.
 
I dunno. He sounded happiest after coming back from a day at the beach (did the chicks have any suggestions on fixing his car?). So maybe a "balanced" approach between recreation and resolution is needed!

One point people miss on the "Timing light not working" saga. There was no power to the coil because he hadn't got the ignition on when cold cranking. So - no spark.

Reweb - did you borrow a meter to test the coil voltage at run, or do you have one? Mine is basically like this, and it's really handy:



Regards, Adam.
 
OK, I'm a little late here and this thread is long so I'll make two quick comments.

It's not your timing chain, if that were continously jumping your cam would be way off and moving the distributer would not help. besides the marks are lined up as you saw. I couple of degrees due to stretch won't cause these proplems.

My dad had an Old opel a long time ago with a broken mechanical advance spring, the weight would fly out freely, hit the side or the ditributor and move the distributor. It did not matter how tight we got the hold down it could still move it. It took us a long time to figure this out. Please make sure all your distributor internals are intact and good. Bearings, springs, advance mechanisums. Even if the distributor is new, whos to say the rebuilder didn't miss it.
 
addo":vkco98hy said:
I dunno. He sounded happiest after coming back from a day at the beach (did the chicks have any suggestions on fixing his car?). So maybe a "balanced" approach between recreation and resolution is needed!

One point people miss on the "Timing light not working" saga. There was no power to the coil because he hadn't got the ignition on when cold cranking. So - no spark.

Reweb - did you borrow a meter to test the coil voltage at run, or do you have one? Mine is basically like this, and it's really handy:



Regards, Adam.

Thanks for the posts...

No the chicks did not have any ideas about how to fix the car. One of them did have a 67-mustang convertible years ago that was stolen while she was in San Fran... never to be seen again! Bummer man...

I bought a meter much like yours addo to do the testing.

I am picking up timing chain + another distributor (exchanging the new rebuild dizzy for another rebuild) + timing cover gasket set, etc tomorrow. Hopefully I will put it all together over the next couple of days.

"So, at this point, here's what I would do.
1. change the cam, gears, chain, and seals since you have it apart.
2. inspect the distributor for end play, worn shaft, stuck breaker plate, worn slider buttons.
3. inspect the vacuum advance canister to make sure its not leaking.
4. buy a good cap and rotor.
5. inspect the SCV to ensure its not leaking or tipping you up.
6. re-time with the vacuum line disconnected

and somewhere in there, do a compression check."

Will do all of the above...

"My dad had an Old opel a long time ago with a broken mechanical advance spring, the weight would fly out freely, hit the side or the ditributor and move the distributor. It did not matter how tight we got the hold down it could still move it. It took us a long time to figure this out. Please make sure all your distributor internals are intact and good. Bearings, springs, advance mechanisums. Even if the distributor is new, whos to say the rebuilder didn't miss it."

I will check and re-check the 'new' distributor...
 
addo":36ugx2pl said:
OK, that's why you weren't getting a reading at cranking. The starter button (really a jump switch) doesn't energise the points.

Hi all, new guy here. Been wrenching motors for over 50 years.

On my 66 Mustang I6 200, if I short the +12V post on the solenoid from the battery to the S post on the solenoid and leave it shorted, it will start and run with the ignition switch off. Not good on the starter, but I just tested it and it will run. What happens is when you go to the start mode, the solenoid gives +12V directly to the coil, bypassing the ballast wire. It doesn't care if the ignition swicth is on of off when you short those terminals. The points are going to see +12V and it will engage the starter and since the coil is seeing +12V it will start and run as long as the +12V and S terminals are shorted.

Can anybody else check this and see if your motor runs with the S lead is shorted to the +12V lead on the solenoid. Might be a safety issure for the unsuspecting manual tranny owners.
 
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