Kelly's engine...serious carnage! PICS

Sorry to hear,that just sucks,Im sure your next engine will be better and faster.It looks like maybe you had some kind of cylinder wall failure,because it look like the engine hydrolocked and caused all the rods to bend.I seen that you had cracked a wall before,have you ever thought of adding hardblock?I think you can go a quarter or have way up the walls on a street engine but I think they tend to run alittle hot,that really stiffens up the cylinders and will help the ring seal,should make more power too.Just my thoughts-good luck.
 
Mustang_Geezer":3rutl6y8 said:
Gene Fiore":3rutl6y8 said:
Wow...major bummer. Sorry to hear what happened Will. :cry:

Ditto..... :cry: :cry:

You guys think you are sorry, try being in my shoes. Since they have Classic Inlines plastered all over the car, I always get a long parts list whenever they blow one up. :cry:

However, in return they have sent a lot of business my way. Most companies would love to sponsor a car that's been featured in three magazines, so I guess I'm the lucky one. ;)
 
AzCoupe":2w8yq4yi said:
You guys think you are sorry, try being in my shoes. Since they have Classic Inlines plastered all over the car, I always get a long parts list whenever they blow one up. :cry:

However, in return they have sent a lot of business my way. Most companies would love to sponsor a car that's been featured in three magazines, so I guess I'm the lucky one. ;)

Hehehehe! Sorry Mike....just trying to do our job! :mrgreen:
But it probably won't be that bad this time. Well.....maybe!
I already have most of the "main" parts to build another motor. Although I will definately need one of those "Does10s Custom Camshaft" grinds! ;)
Oh and solid lifters.....bearings.....oh forget what I said above! 8)

Later,
Will
 
NitrousNick,
Yes we have thought about Hardblock. Acutally we were thinking about it on this last motor, but the machine shop already had most of the machining done so we just kinda blew it off.
We'll look at it pretty hard again. We have to keep it streetable so that's a concern.
We may also sleeve all of the cylinders right from the start. We've detroyed two blocks now both with similar cyl. wall failure. One was just more catastrophic. Both were bored .040" over.

Later,
Will
 
Sorry to hear 'bout your 'destruction' Will. Any idea when the Car will be up 'an running again :unsure:: ~OO6.
 
Ouch :cry: Probably not relevant, but does look like a hydraulic lock, was wondering if you had an injector failure and it shot straight gas and filled up the cylinder... just a wild guess :shock:
 
Will,

I'm going to throw something out there because I believe in "no stone unturned".

I remember seeing your number one piston and rod that looked to me like the wrist pin seized and hammered out the cylinder wall. I'm wondering if your wrist pins are too thin. I run full floating pins. I'm sure that helps by giving another point to turn on.

On the cylinder walls that I have cracked on 2 different blocks, due to 70 overbore, overboost and detonation, the cylinder just split in the thinnest area which is front and back between the cylinders. The second block I grouted but did not fix the tune-up problem. The grout looked like it was jackhammered out of the block.

If your machinist goes with a tight fit on the sleeves, don't be surprized if you have to line hone. Of course, it's a good idea anyway.

Like I said, I'm just throwing things out there. Good luck.
 
Drag200,
That's a strong possibility. We have had troubles with the wrist pins galling and rocking the piston in the cyl. The last motor showed signs of that.
We do have one wrist pin on this motor that is broken and it's in the pan still attached the top half of the rod. The pins are from JE and came with the pistons. On this set of pistons they were not full floating. Just "stock replacements", forged of course, but basically stockers.

We already have another set that are full floating. And they have a much larger dish and relocated wrist pin so we can raise the compression height to get much closer to a zero deck height.

Geezer300,
Her car is carb'd, no injectors. So you're right....pretty wild guess! :D

Later,
Will
 
Will, seems like an overbore of .010-.020" would be a lot safer because of thin cylinder walls.
Also have the bores sonic checked before spending a dime on any machine work. Or just sleeve them all.
With your cylinder pressure floating wrist pins would be money well spent. Bill
 
wsa111,
We wanted to go with a 20 overbore, but being a used block, the cylinder walls were not clean until 40 over. Seems all the 250 blocks we've gotten have required a 40 over.
Kelly
 
I'm with Drag on the siezed pin, did I not see a pic with the pin pulled out of the bottom of the piston? or was that someone else?
 
Yes there is one piston (#1 I think) with the wrist pin ripped out. The entire bottom of the piston is in the pan....in many pieces.

I'll have more pics posted this weekend after a full teardown.
Should be entertaining for everyone! :shock:

Later,
Will
 
wow guys, that's harsh

to fund the next build you guys should auction off the busted pistons as paperweights
 
sorry about the mess.. guess you'll keep showing us the limits of this little giant.

too bad you didn't make pass time.. I keep thinking no one would get that car's time right every time i watch the show.
 
in my younger days... when a cylinder would hydraulic, the rod would bend to unbelievable shapes.

Now..... these were Carrillo rods in big block chevy motors.

These 6 cylinder rods are ripped into pieces. :shock:
 
The gudgeon pins might actually be the syptom, not the cause.


Observe the later 1994 4.0 I6 Ford crankshaft.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/ ... terwei.jpg

In 1990, Aston Martins Tickford development company did some engine developement on the Aussie EB 3.9 liter Ford I6 six. That engine is basically the 1968 US 250 with an overhead cam conversion. Pistons, crank, rods, gudgeon pins, main bearings, crank pins, flywheel and balance were similar to the US 250, only the deck height of the piston and block was taken down from 9.469 to 9.22" tall. Pistons compression height was reduced from 1.5 ish to about 1.375"

The English Tickford concern (who did the Aston Martin DB7 supercharged 3.2 development ) found that the crankshaft design was about 15 years behind BMW's and GM's, and that was the limiting factor to the engine not being repeatidly reliable for power over 225 hp or 5000 rpm. That wasn't to say the I6 was unreliable, just that it wouldn't hack the 300 hour, 50000 mile Test cycle demanded by Ford.

In my discussion with some Ford mechanics, from evidence from engine rebuilders, the bigger 250 style engine had significantly more vibration than the smaller 200 engines, and that was what created other problems. A trend from the early 200 engines to the later 250's, was less reliability per unit sold. By 1986, there were a host of niggling problems regarding detonation related issues, which were thought to be traced to the level of timing advance. By 1994, Ford had totally re-engineered the crankshaft on its OHC engines to eliminated other problems.

The fact that GM-H (Holden Australia) had started using 12 counterweight cranks in there larger 3.3 engines since 1980. The smaller 2.85 liter six ran the old 10 counterwieght iron crank for the rest of its life. That its archaic 3.3 liter engine was always a far smoother, free-er reveing and sweeter engine tan the 2.85 and earlier 3.3's had been observed since that time. In 1980, Holden made no changes to its 1963 engine aside from the crankshaft and head, and there was a con rod beam quality upgrade, but it still ran tiny thin steel 0.866" gudgen pins.

Reliability of the Holden 3.3 engines with a fully counterweighed crank was much greater. Old 3.3 (202) Holdens with iron cranks vibrated at 4500 rpm. With thew 12 counterweight crank, it was over 7000 rpm before a critical vibration period. There used to be a steel crank used in the triple carb and 2-bbl 3.3 engines. It is replaced by the cast iron 12 counterweight crank any time the engine is likely to be extended to 7000 rpm in a racing environment.

This is why I think, in a thin wall OHV 250, that the crank should be changed, and its my contention that it alone will eliminate the problem with gudgeon pin, cylinder wall, and rod failure, since I'm adament that its a crtical torsional vibration issue, and not a problem with the rods.

Old used Aussie 12 counterweight cranks are around for not much money. Anyone from 1997 back to 1994 could be used. It's possible that the stock 250 iron crank could be rewelded with 4 extra counterweights...it used to be done on some smaller engines. In our I6 framework, once you've added about 12 pounds of iron to the crank, it will raise the critical vibration period right out of anything likley to be used in your Turbo 250. A dual mode balancer helps too. The vibration on I6's increases proportionally, and then gets critical like a tuning fork. Like the onset of detonation, you won't notice critical crankshaft torsional vibration in a drag racing setting, but you would on a dyno with just some simple detection equipement. (I've had some background vibration detection equipment with this from my 7 years work in a laboratory and also from mine expolsion monitoring back in 1993).

As for wreckage, adams mates Turbo engined I6 Xflow might not be related to vibration, but I think the other pictures are, and I have found that breakages are not uncommon
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/ ... nmajor.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/ ... etBent.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/ ... utabed.jpg

My opinon is that this all eminates from the crank, not the quality of pistons, rods or block, which are far superior to most of the GM L6 stuff.
 
So if I understand what you're saying is our US 250 L6's would be able to rev higher if they had more counter weights which would abate vibrations that occur at the upper limit of our RPM range?

Is there a 12 counterweight variant L6 Crank shaft that can be adapted to our US 144-250 blocks?

How difficult would it be to weld extra counterweights to our US cranks and how reliable would those welds be?

I wonder if anyone had the money would it be wisely spent making a custom forged or billet crank?(perhaps in a high rpm race only app or highperformance street)

Please forgive my ignorance in all this I have yet to complete much research.

Keep Sixn'

Dan
 
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