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Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

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'68falconohio
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Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

Post #1 by '68falconohio » Mon May 25, 2009 11:21 pm

I'm trying to figure out what type of phenolic to use to make a carb. spacer for my H/W. The alum. is conducting too much heat and the fuel bowl is extremely close to the valve cover, which is causing problems. I've got about 2 inches of room to work before hood clearance is an issue so I want to eliminate one of my 3/4" Al spacers and replace it with a 1" phenolic spacer.

I searched online for a while but couldn't get a material description from JEG's or any other site other than it's 'phenolic'. I'm planning on buying it from McMaster unless someone knows of a cheaper vendor?

Thanks guys,
Stephen
'68 Falcon - sold
'99 F-250 Super Duty, '64 Lincoln SA-200 "Redface" - weldin' car
'04 F-350 Super Duty - racecar

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Re: Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

Post #2 by aribert » Tue May 26, 2009 7:38 am

I did the same thing - ordering from McMaster. I just opened my catalog at work to see if I had underlined the latest Phenolic that I bought but no such luck. I don't think that it makes that much of a difference - I would suggest the Machinable Garolite (LE Linen Grade). I have made custom carb spacers out of phenolic for both the Weber sidedrafts (0.5 in. thick) on my Triumph and the 32/36DGV (0.25 in. thk) on my Falcon. Phenolics have a nasty smell when machined.
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Re: Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

Post #3 by Stubby » Tue May 26, 2009 9:57 am

If you have a watercut place near you, you might check in their scrap pile.
Never squat with yer spurs on.

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'68falconohio
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Re: Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

Post #4 by '68falconohio » Tue May 26, 2009 2:25 pm

aribert wrote: Phenolics have a nasty smell when machined.


Yeah, I've machined a good bit of phenolic at work but it was all low-temp stuff. And the smell, it smells like death entering my lungs from the end mill.

Stubby wrote:If you have a watercut place near you, you might check in their scrap pile.


I'm going to look around in the phone book for waterjet cutters. We use LaserFlex in Hilliard Ohio for laser cut parts, but I don't know if they have a waterjet??? Something to look into, indeed.


From McMaster...it's roughly $26 for a 6"X6"X1" piece of LE Linen Grade phenolic but only $13 for a 4"X6"X1" piece of CE Canvas Grade(those are the smallest offered sizes of each in 1" thickness). McMaster says they can both be machined with high speed steel and both have same max temperature. I'm probably going to lean towards the CE because I don't need the extra tensile strength the LE offers. Are the binders UV sensitive?? Both say to be used indoors.
'68 Falcon - sold
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'04 F-350 Super Duty - racecar

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Post #5 by addo » Tue May 26, 2009 4:40 pm

I reckon the risk of decomposition is pretty small. It's not exposed to anything outside design spec except for passing vapour on the inside.

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Re: Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

Post #6 by MustangSix » Wed May 27, 2009 1:48 pm

Check with your local cabinet maker. Corian makes an excellent carb spacer.
Jack Collins

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Re: Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

Post #7 by ludwig » Wed May 27, 2009 2:37 pm

I was gonna say a small block of cultured marble, like an off the shelf cutting board. But a scrap of Corian will serve as well.

Elsewhere on the Forum, some guys were discussing the use of a piece of 3/4" A/C or marine plywood for the same purpose. Then use a little aluminum paint if you are vain.
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Re: Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

Post #8 by '68falconohio » Wed May 27, 2009 3:08 pm

So here are the materials so far that have been referred to me as possible Carb spacers on this forum and abroad and their characteristics.

Phenolics- Grade LE Garolite (Linen Grade)-- operating temp up to +239*F $16-4"X6"X1"(McMaster)
Grade CE Garolite (Canvas Grade)--operating temp +32* to +239*F $13-4"X6"X1"(McMaster)
Both LE and CE machinable with high speed steel and both are recommended for indoor usage.

Delrin- too expensive.... 3-5 times price of phenolic with lower operating temps.(McMaster)

Corian(Solid Surface Countertop)-- Thermosetting Plastic-- Decomposition temp 572*F (MSDS-DuPont)

Realistically, what kind of operating temperatures is the spacer going to see on my 200ci? 250*-300*F???
The Corian seems to be a great choice if I can find a piece thick enough, cheap enough.
I'm going to have to make up my mind pretty soon and just make the spacer, but I wanted to explore all of this material selection anyway.

MustangSix,
How did the Corian machine? Will it cut alright with high speed steel or do I need carbides?

Thanks Again Guys,
Stephen
'68 Falcon - sold
'99 F-250 Super Duty, '64 Lincoln SA-200 "Redface" - weldin' car
'04 F-350 Super Duty - racecar

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Re: Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

Post #9 by ludwig » Wed May 27, 2009 5:32 pm

Corian: You can cut it with a jigsaw. You can drill it with a hardened bit. You can mill it with standard wood milling tools, i.e. router, electric plane, joiner, sander (fine grit), etc. Drill your holes with a drill press running fast. Trim the block on the outside with your router and a smooth edge model. Just like making a little bitty, two- or four-barrel counter top.

You can probably salvage some scraps from a cabinet shop. Ask them for sink cutouts.
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Re: Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

Post #10 by '68falconohio » Wed May 27, 2009 5:40 pm

Ludwig,
Thanks again for your help. Oddly enough, I have a vertical milling machine at my disposal but no router. From what you've said, I think a four-fluted end mill should cut it just fine.

Stephen
'68 Falcon - sold
'99 F-250 Super Duty, '64 Lincoln SA-200 "Redface" - weldin' car
'04 F-350 Super Duty - racecar

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Re: Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

Post #11 by Stubby » Wed May 27, 2009 5:47 pm

For a nice radius, you can use router bits in the mill. I have used them alot. Do not try to feed the material by hand. Clamp it in the vise or to the table as you normaly would. 8)
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Re: Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

Post #12 by ludwig » Wed May 27, 2009 7:21 pm

stubby wrote:Do not try to feed the material by hand.


Amen, bro. You can clamp it down on a flat surface or glue it to a plywood surface and trim/sand the plywood off later. You can make a guide by milling out a piece of dense plywood that is the shape of your spacer plus the width of your cutting bit. With a router (that you don't have), you can trace inside the a shape and mill out the shape of the spacer.

If you have a vertical (floor mounted) belt sander, you can trace the shape of the base of the carb onto the Corian. Drill the barrels with the drill press first. Then work the blank around, slowly cutting the material down to the pen line for a smooth edge. Same with a standing jigsaw with a fine blade (note: NOT a hand-held saber saw, also misidentified as a 'jig-saw').

As to technique: If you don't have high speed tools, move the tool slowly past the material. This is tantamount to the same thing, reducing the size of the cut and feed surface per rotation. CLAMP THE WORKPIECE. Don't hurry with the cuts.
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Re: Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

Post #13 by '68falconohio » Wed May 27, 2009 8:46 pm

ludwig wrote: Same with a standing jigsaw with a fine blade (note: NOT a hand-held saber saw, also misidentified as a 'jig-saw').


Dad taught me to call it a saber saw when I was a little guy. In my high-school shop class, my teacher and I didn't get along very well and he actually docked points on a quiz because I labeled one as a saber saw, not a jig saw.

Anyway, this is all good info and greatly appreciated. The guy in the industrial park next to my work is actually a cabinet maker with a CNC router. I'm going to try to coerce him into making me a carb spacer with some Yuengling.

I'm kinda hoping he has some Ford Racing Blue Corian or another cool color laying around. I kinda like seeing something different every once in a while.....that couldn't be why I'm sporting a 200, is it? haha
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Re: Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

Post #14 by MercuryMarc » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:58 am

Stephen-
did you ever get the phenolic and if you did where did you get it?
Marc
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Re: Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

Post #15 by '68falconohio » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:29 am

MercuryMarc wrote:Stephen-
did you ever get the phenolic and if you did where did you get it?
Marc


Honestly,
I realized how much time I needed to devote to school and threw my car to the back-burner. The cabinet maker next to work didn't have any Corian which was a letdown. Last final's tomorrow and I'll be able to get the LE phenolic(linen grade) from McMaster after the test. Here's the link to the phenolic from McMaster --> LE Phenolic McMaster.com Just pick what size you need and proceed through, their online catalog is one of the best I've used. The linen grade is a little more expensive than the canvas grade(CE) but it should machine easier. They usually ship everything that day so I get it the next day via UPS Ground.

Stephen
'68 Falcon - sold
'99 F-250 Super Duty, '64 Lincoln SA-200 "Redface" - weldin' car
'04 F-350 Super Duty - racecar

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Re: Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

Post #16 by fmartin_gila » Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:44 am

Some years back when I had a carb boiling problem, I just stacked up as many gaskets as I could get on there and still allow a full nut when tightened down. This has been working now for at least 5 years with no perculating problems, and a whole lot simpler than making a spacer and since the setup is just gaskets for that application, I know I used the proper material.

Fred
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Re: Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

Post #17 by james singleton » Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:48 pm

While on the subject of Carb Spacers, I want to ask a question. I am in the process of rebuilding a single barrel carb, and I presently have an approx. 1" thick phenolic carb spacer between the manifold and the carb. The carb rebuild kit insturctions say: "6 CYL WITH HEAT INSULATOR BLOCK DOES NOT REQUIRE A FLANGE GASKET". There is a thick gasket that I believe goes between the manifold and the carb spacer that I plan on installing, but what do you think about their comment of "no" flange gasket needed. I am assume (I know, I know!) that they are talking about no gasket required between the top of the carb spacer and the bottom of the carburetor flange.??? Does this sound correct??? Thanks, James

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Re: Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

Post #18 by Ken Thompson » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:22 pm

Would a piece of 3/8" thick Oak work as a good spacer material?
Thanks,
Ken

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Re: Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

Post #19 by ludwig » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:31 pm

Absolutely. You could use marine plywood too.
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Re: Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

Post #20 by james singleton » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:55 pm

I re-read my question from an earlier post, and realized that it may be confusing. So here goes again: Do you need a gasket between the top of a "Phenolic Carb Spacer" and the bottom flange of a carburetor?? Thanks, James

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Re: Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

Post #21 by Stubby » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:17 pm

Yes, but it doesn't have to be a thick one. Make sure the carb is flat and a thin gasket will be okay.
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Re: Phenolic Carb Spacer HELP

Post #22 by james singleton » Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:38 am

Thanks Stubby, I presently have a fairly thin gasket between the carb spacer and the bottom of the carburetor, as well as a much thicker gasket between the manifold and the bottom of the carb spacer, but like I mention in a previous post, the instructions that came with a carburetor rebuild kit seemed to imply that a gasket was not necessary between the spacer and the carburetor. The instructions refer to a "Heat Insulator Block" which I take to be the same thing as the 'Phenolic Carb Spacer".????? Are they not one in the same??? Thanks, James

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Post #23 by addo » Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:59 am

I believe they are referring to the standard cast alloy plate which has coolant running through it - it "insulates" the carb from temperatures much hotter than the coolant gets, and would stabilise its operating temperature somewhat in colder weather.

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