Adjusting Valves

I have just had the top end rebuilt on my 65 Mustang 200 ci. The engine has adjustable rocker arms with hydraulic lifters.

I follow the directions at Classic Inlines to adjust hydraulic lifters, though it seems that I can't get the motor rotated to the correct location on the camshaft (#1 TDC) because some of the rocker arms can be adjusted fully and there still be room to move the pushrod up and down.

I've never done this before and I'm not the greatest mechanic, but if you give me instructions, I should be able to follow them.

My question:
Classic Inlines says adjust after #1 cylinder is at TDC just after the compression stroke. So I move the #1 piston another rotation after the intake valve has just closed and still one of the #1 pushrods (intake) seems to adjust fully without stopping the pushrod from spinning, though the other valves seem like they could adjust fine. Are you supposed to adjust at a different part of the stroke? Like just before compression stroke TDC, just after, or right when it's at TDC?

I really want to get this done, I've been waiting almost 3 weeks to do it since I reinstalled everything.

I'm not sure if I understand what you have done.
At TDC both valves for #1 cylinder are closed and can be adjusted.

#1 intake - #1 exhaust - #2 intake - #3 exhaust - #4 intake - #5 exhaust

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Is this what you did?
Don't forget that hydraulic lifters expand and compress, and this is probably why you're having problems. If one lifter is pumped up and the other isn't then you will have adjustment problems.
I'm not sure how to alleviate that issue effectively, perhaps someone else can help out.
If I were you I'd get a set of non-adjustable rockers and be done with it.
Someone here may even offer to swap or buy yours.

That might be the problem, that they are expanding and compressing.

Anyone know how to solve this? Loosen the adjustment and wait for a while?

Okay your post is somewhat unclear, but I think you may not be on TDC of no. 1. Mark your dizzy housing where the no.1 plug terminal is located on the cap. Remove your cap and rotate the crank to exactly TDC on your timing pointer as your rotor approaches the number one terminal location of your dizzy. Now back all of your adjusters ALL THE WAY OFF the pushrods. I actually pry the rocker off the pushrod and compress the spring to be sure all load is off the pushrod and lifter. This is necessary, as you cannot skip to simply tightening until resistance when spun, as the pushrods may already be overloading the lifters (The spring seats are so light, it is not difficult for an out of adjustment lifter to hold the valve open on our sixes). Now wiggle and spin the no.1 in ex 2 in 3 ex 4 in 5 ex pushrods until there is no play, and then 1/4 turn of the adjuster. Next rotate the crank clockwise 1 rotation to TDC and adjust no. 2 ex 3 in 4 ex 5 in 6 in ex. in the same manner. This gets you VERY close. To be spot on, I then start the car with the valve cover off, and adjust them while the engine is idling. I back them off one at a time until they tick and then tighten that rocker until it stops plus 1/4 turn. This works very well. I fought a valvetrain issue for months, my non-adjustable rockers were holding the valves open and once the oil viscosity thinned out, once at operating temperature, the lifters would finally bleed down and allow the engine to run properly. Correct preload of the lifter is important, atleast on my six. Good luck!
-Joe

What Joe said, plus this.

I've seen instructions to mark the crank pulley at 60* intervals, so you will know when each piston is coming up to TDC. It is a little easier to mark the body of the distributor, and use the rotor to track the firing order, so you know when each cylinder is at TDC. Just make sure the static timing has been set to TDC, instead of what it will take to run.

It is essential to pump up the lifters. One way is to put a hex drive down the distributor hole, and spin the oil pump. Another would be to remove the plugs, and use the starter to spin the engine until it has pressure. Then, start the adjustment process. it is important that all the lifters be pumped up. Again, make sure you have all of the rockers backed off.

Thank you so much. 351 Celi, your instructions are great. I marked the #1 on the distributor and cranked it there, backed off all the rods I was adjusting.

However, I can adjust #1 intake and #4 intake all the way and only get slight resistance on spinning the pushrod.

Could this be that the lifters are not pumped up? There is no oil in the engine at the moment, except for oil I have poured over the rocker assembly and let seep through the drain hole.

So a couple of my lifters are adjusted all the way down, should I do this next?

1) Back off the adjusters so they are loose
2) Plug the drain pan and fill the engine with oil (is this necessary yet?)
3) Remove the spark plugs (already done)
4) Crank the engine until it has oil pressure (how do I know this? Look at the gauge?)
5) Follow 351 Celi's steps

You MUST pump up the lifters to adjust. Look at the gauge to make sure you have pressure.

Sounds good. Get your lifters primed, and try again. It does not have to be exactly spot on for the initial, just close enought to get it running. You have to get the preload close, and the easiest way to be sure is while the engine is running.

Yes.

1) Back off the adjusters so they are loose
2) Plug the drain pan and fill the engine with oil
3) Remove the spark plugs
4) Crank the engine until it has oil pressure, Look at the gauge
5) Follow 351 Celi's stepsCanary94GT

Adjusting Valves on ANY Engine WITH any Camshaft ( because the tdc method is NOT best unless its a STOCK Cam ) is as simple as this , pick a cylinder any cylinder I perfer to start in the front ( on an inline ) bump the engine (or turn it with a long ratchet and socket ) IN the direction of rotation ( a givin if bumping it with a remote starter is used ) untill the exhaust valve of the cylinder you have chosen begins to open, then set the Lash or Lifter preload for the Intake Valve of that cylinder, after that , continue to rotate the engine ( again in the correct rotation of the engine ) untill the Intake Valve that you just adjusted opens all the way up and is just about to close ( if you go a bit to far just back it up or go all the way around till the correct spot ) when its just about to close Set the EXHAUST Valve same as you did the intake ( lash or preload ) Then go to the next cylinder , repeat till all are done , NO need to find TDC , NO need to make marks , This method takes into account larger than stock Valve overlap ( performance Cams ) , the TDC method DOES NOT ! once you use this method ( all Performance Shops do ) you will never go back to the old way , Our 6's any 6 any V-8 , 4cyls , you name it , it WORKS , is MORE accurate , and once you master the valve motion ( couple minutes ) its way faster Too , now get out there and ajust them Valves !!

Can I leave the valve cover off during this whole process or will I get oil everywhere?

Your only bumping or turning by hand , so sure , thought that was a givin but its always best to ask , besides it wou ld be a bit tough to see the valve action with it on

Haha thank you. I just rather be safe than sorry since I just detailed the whole engine compartment and don't want oil everywhere

My Mustang is my more showey and I hate cleaning ( but it looks nicer 8) have fun

FalconSedanDelivery":1ieknnoj said:

Adjusting Valves on ANY Engine WITH any Camshaft ( because the tdc method is NOT best unless its a STOCK Cam ) is as simple as this , pick a cylinder any cylinder I perfer to start in the front ( on an inline ) bump the engine (or turn it with a long ratchet and socket ) IN the direction of rotation ( a givin if bumping it with a remote starter is used ) untill the exhaust valve of the cylinder you have chosen begins to open, then set the Lash or Lifter preload for the Intake Valve of that cylinder, after that , continue to rotate the engine ( again in the correct rotation of the engine ) untill the Intake Valve that you just adjusted opens all the way up and is just about to close ( if you go a bit to far just back it up or go all the way around till the correct spot ) when its just about to close Set the EXHAUST Valve same as you did the intake ( lash or preload ) Then go to the next cylinder , repeat till all are done , NO need to find TDC , NO need to make marks , This method takes into account larger than stock Valve overlap ( performance Cams ) , the TDC method DOES NOT ! once you use this method ( all Performance Shops do ) you will never go back to the old way , Our 6's any 6 any V-8 , 4cyls , you name it , it WORKS , is MORE accurate , and once you master the valve motion ( couple minutes ) its way faster Too , now get out there and ajust them Valves !!

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Falcon' I like your approach, but I did not have luck getting my six to run spot on without adjusing while running. Maybe it is just my engine, but I had an issue with the valve being held open, the stock valve springs are only 45 lbs when closed, and the lifters can easily hold them open if pumped up and out of adjustment. I don't say this to argue, based on your car list you have vast more experience than I, but I fought this for months, and had only finally fixed it with completely unloading the valve, rocker and pushrod, getting it close, and then final adjustment while running. I am sure my whole problem was the stock light springs, but I could see this likely would not be a problem with performance springs as you are likely using Falcon'. Your thoughts? Also, the oil stays very well contained during idle, may be only a drible above the no. 1 spark plug, a shop towel catches it no problem.
-Joe

Alright, I got it done and realized that adjusting them until the pushrod cannot twirl in your fingers is not the way to go since you'll end up adjusting all of them down.

What I did was adjusted one valve at a time and stopped immediately when there was zero lash (no wiggle between rocker arm and pushrod) and then did 3/4 turn of preload.

Now I have to figure out why I am getting no oil to my rocker arms.

No oil to your rocker arms? Unless you completely took the rocker assembly apart and cleaned it up, your problem's not too unusual. The oil comes up the back rocker arm stanchion, into the rocker arm shaft which has a hole on the bottom under each rocker arm. Each rocker arm has two very little holes drilled in it to distribute this oil to the push rod and top of the valve. Those holes are usually gooped closed, and have to be unplugged with a drill bit.

If that rear stanchion is getting oil, it's time to disassemble that rocker arm shaft and clean it up. If it's just putting out a little oil, it may be normal. They don't put out much -- just a trickle it seems.

FalconSedanDelivery":oyfsh42i said:

Adjusting Valves on ANY Engine WITH any Camshaft ( because the tdc method is NOT best unless its a STOCK Cam ) is as simple as this , pick a cylinder any cylinder I perfer to start in the front ( on an inline ) bump the engine (or turn it with a long ratchet and socket ) IN the direction of rotation ( a givin if bumping it with a remote starter is used ) untill the exhaust valve of the cylinder you have chosen begins to open, then set the Lash or Lifter preload for the Intake Valve of that cylinder, after that , continue to rotate the engine ( again in the correct rotation of the engine ) untill the Intake Valve that you just adjusted opens all the way up and is just about to close ( if you go a bit to far just back it up or go all the way around till the correct spot ) when its just about to close Set the EXHAUST Valve same as you did the intake ( lash or preload ) Then go to the next cylinder , repeat till all are done , NO need to find TDC , NO need to make marks , This method takes into account larger than stock Valve overlap ( performance Cams ) , the TDC method DOES NOT ! once you use this method ( all Performance Shops do ) you will never go back to the old way , Our 6's any 6 any V-8 , 4cyls , you name it , it WORKS , is MORE accurate , and once you master the valve motion ( couple minutes ) its way faster Too , now get out there and ajust them Valves !!

Click to expand...

This is by far the ONE and ONLY correct method to adjust valves in any engine with any type of camshaft(Hydraulic,Flat tappet,Solid or Hydraulic roller). It places the lobe on the heel everytime,where the lobe needs to be adjusted. I also have found a very accurate way to precisely preload the lifter for hydraulic flat tappets and hydraulic roller style cams. After talking to many cam manufacturers about their prefered amount of preload, I found that all cam companies,Crane, Comp, Isky,etc... all felt that between .025-.045 of preload was the optimum amount to deliver the best adjustment and performance. So being a professional engine builder at the time, I wanted to see just what it took to achieve this. So taking a dial indicator and placing it on the pushrod end of the rocker arm, I removed all the slack in the adjustment until it was at a zero lash/zero preload, and regardless of all the magazines and books written about tightening the nut an additional full revolution, or 3/4 of a turn.....it only takes an additonal 1/4 turn to put it in the .025-.045 preload range every time. It doesn't matter if its a 7/16 or 3/8 rocker stud, a 1/4 turn is all it takes. I went thru a phase in the 5.0 Mustang days where I think I built every 302 in Georgia, and once I started using this technique to adjust valves, the valve covers never came back off a single engine after it left the engine stand or dyno.....I have done quite a few rocker shaft style engines with non-adjustable rockers and using the .025-.045 preload method works well with helping determine how much to shim the pedestals or shafts, or get custom length pushrods, to get the correct adjustment on those also.

okay so my method that worked wonderfully for my 170 that i tried all these other methods several times to level out was to rotate the engine until compression stroke on #1 compress the lifter by using a wrench to squeeze it down slowly slide a .1" feeler between the valve and rocker and adjust until tight. rotate the engine to the next compression stroke and do the same thing on that cylinder. I am very aware that this isn't the correct method, but every time i tried the other methods i either went too fast and compressed the lifter throwing me off or going to slow and never getting to the point where i couldn't rotate the pushrod.
I have been working for the past three months screwing with these things (adjustables on hydraulics) and this is the first time the thing idles/accelerates/decelerates smoothly at all. from there I UNIFORMLY added some preload or reduced until it ran to my expectations. it sets them all uniform and within the spec of every manual i have for these engines (which is fairly wide .067-.200") then it is just a matter of adjusting until it is best for your particular engine.

Keep in mind that most of those manuals and factory service bulletins were written 40+ years ago, and only applies to using 40+ year old OEM components. The current aftermarket technologies and components are much different today than when those early books and manuals were written, and those older techniques don't really apply when you are using components designed with newer and better technology. You can look at all the cam companies websites and see that they will many times recommend techniques and procedures that contradict older methods and those older books, especially regarding valve adjustment and lifter perload, mostly because these newer parts are redesigned and engineered to newer and updated standards than the parts that were made as long ago as these engines were originally. Many times, lifter preload is proportional to the amount of oil pressure you have at idle, hence the term hydraulic. An engine with lower oil pressure at idle will naturally require more preload to help overcome valve spring pressure to quiten them down, compared to a high performance engine or race prepped engine that might have 50 psi + oil pressure at idle. Also, an engine that has very high miles and excessive bearing wear is prone to having to crank the adjustment down further also to compensate for lack of oil supply at lower engine speeds, compared to a freshly machined and clearanced engine in top peak condition. As recent as the early 1980's, all Pontiac V8's valves were adjusted by tightening the rocker arm nut all the way until it bottomed out on the rocker stud. If today you purchased a Comp Cams or Crane cam and lifter kit and tried to adjust the valves the way it says to in a newly printed in 2009 Chilton's or Haynes manual, you would instantly wipe several lobes off the cam and damage a large % of the rest of the lifters by collasping them beyond what they are designed to take. So don't always depend on those sources for being accurate when using newer technology components....