Small Block 6 Valve Train

drag-200stang

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I would not like to be included in the hostilities towards the littlest outlaw. There are 2 reasons I agreed with him about the valve springs. I was slamming him about not knowing the push rods weren't up to par for high performance usage (define high performance usage?) and his information about timing the cam so I agreed with him so as to not totally alienate him and save Mike a possible future sale. The second reason is when people keep reading "302 springs, 302 spings, 302 springs", after awhile they think its the blanket spring for all applications. That's why I said always use cam grinder's recommended springs which, in fact, may be the 302 spring for the application. We have had people buy a cam from Mike and then go to the auto parts and buy the 302 springs because that's what they heard was cheap. Who knows what spring pressure the offshore auto parts springs had?

Heck, Ak Miller designed my turbo engine. I know his philosophies about the Ford small block six well. I have also learned from George delorean, Jack Roush, Sam Gianino, and other motown hot rodders. ;)
I have bought plenty of parts from Clifford Performance during Jack's days and now I buy from MIke whenever when I can.

I also recommend always degreeing the cam. I have never found one that was anywhere close to being on. Its not the cam grinders fault, its up to the engine builder to do this. Sometimes OEM stuff is off, sometimes the cam grinder will adjust the position to get the most out of the lobes without having to grind the base circle too small. Ak Miller told me there was a difference between the 200 and 250 cam timing placements. How true this is, I'm not sure. I just simply degree the cam until its right on.

There has to be a simpler way to describe how to read the cam card and degree it. Someone needs to work out some simpler instructions. Maybe more people would take the the time to degree their cam.

Anyway, I still love you guys.
 
drag-200stang":1iqz97ld said:
There has to be a simpler way to describe how to read the cam card and degree it. Someone needs to work out some simpler instructions. Maybe more people would take the the time to degree their cam

I missed the rest of what ever was going on but 100% agree on the last bit. Why does manufacturer have to do it slightly different? I understand about not giving all the info for advertising reasons and making yours seem better than others but once you buy one why is it still complicated?

There is also the cam/distributor degrees vs. crank. Most of us think in crank since that's what we can reference to. Sometimes that right sometimes not. Often no one specifies which one you should be reading.

I had an oil pump fail in a rebuilt engine so I had to pull it and take it apart. Among the carnage was the timing set. First time I remember having a heck of a time getting it set right and I was working with a guy that had done several motors. It was an adjustable Cloyes set and about the time we were going to get the grinder out to make it right we finally found a combo of key-way and marks that gave us what we thought we were going for. Engine never quite ran right. Accidentally ordered a standard non adjustable replacement set (still Cloyes) the second time and for some reason it just went on and then we pulled out the wheel and indicator and it was about 1/2* off. We both scratched our heads on that one. Engine runs much better. All I can figure is we over thought the cam card last time and messed up.
 
In my opinion no one should be "Slammed" ( perhaps that is to strong a term) on this forum. Just respectfully disagree and after a few exchanges move on. It does no any good to let disagreements degenerate into trading of insults and can poison a board. This board is to important to me to see that happen without trying to turn to a more reasoned discourse, please. I hope no one is offended by what I have posted.

69.5mav
 
I use to have just images of the cam cards, but this morning I made some changes. Does this help? http://classicinlines.com/images/camcard/Pages/264-12.html

In the next few months, I'll be building two or three motors. I'll see what I can do to make a video explaining how to degree a camshaft, and/or take pictures of each step and write a better tech article. It's really pretty easy once you've done it once or twice.
 
I like the cam degreeing info page! Kinda cool that it changes with each cam card. Nice! (y)
Later,
Will
 
For what it is worth, my machinist told me that the 302 springs would not be sufficient enough with the cam that I chose, when I was installing my engine last year with the alum head, (that I bought from Mike...) Just some info that I heard from another professional machinist....


Wcol
 
Like TJ said, I missed the other drama apparently, but I do agree.

Always go with the recommended springs from the cam grinder. Different cams need different spring rates...and there is no way ford designed the 302 springs to encompass all various types of cam combinations for a 302...let along a 200. I won't even get into off shore aftermarket parts. Ideally, everyone should test their springs to make sure they meet the required rates.

That is why when I bought my Comp Cam (prior to Mike entering the market), I bought my springs from them to match the cam. Cheaping out on parts is not a good idea when you are building for performance.

As far as degreeing a cam, I agree a write up/video would be great. Comp Cam used to have a well written write up on how to do it. I degree'd the cam I have in my car, but on a friends I didn't take the time to do it right because I didn't have the instructions handy. It's not tough, just tedious and if you don't do it alot, it can seem like rocket science.
 
drag_200stang wrote
I was slamming him about not knowing the push rods weren't up to par for high performance usage (define high performance usage?) and his information about timing the cam so I agreed with him so as to not totally alienate him

Thanks, however if i was going to purchase pushrods they would not be the stock junk.
You are right about the cam degreeing deal.
You now have to purchase a vhs-dvd from comp cams to degree a camshaft, prior they all had them all on their website.
If you suggest 3/8" pushrods then the pushrod holes would have to be drilled out in any head you use??
If i keep the 68 i own, i will probably intall a V-8, cause it costs less than to hop up the six & you will get twice the power. Outlaw Tom
 
I have always been told to use the largest diameter push rod you can use. Of course I don't think we need 9/16" top fuel push rods. The 3/8" push rods that I use were given to me from a guys failed FE build. They are 3 piece and I had to shorten them. I have run these push rods to 7500 and the engine was smooth as silk. No alteration to the push rod hole is needed at least on the 70's and up log heads that I have dealt with. Of course, always check there could be casting shift. I have some 5/16" carbon fiber push rods that I got from a guy trying to break into the business. I may try them on my new build to save some weight (higher revs, less stress) but I'm a little concerned. Seems like you can bend them side-to-side more than stock push rods. I may try them on the intakes only.

P.S. There is always more than one way to get the job done (wife won't let me use the other term).
 
Any body hear or talk to WSA111 (willam). I have not seen any replies by him in a while. That guy is a great support on this forum and probably good support for Classic Inline's company..., He is willing to help anyone on the forum about discussions like this and other hard tech questions on our inline six's...He helped me out quite a few times last year and beginning of this year, when I was building my engine.. when I could not get answers for my certain problems I had..., I notice he helped out quite a few people also on this forum...

Just some info
Wcol
 
WSA111 left the board under some unhappy circumstances; forum member Littlest Outlaw claims to be his nephew or somesuch and allegedly uses William's computer; perhaps he will be willing to be an intermediary.
Joe
 
Concerning the carbon fiber push rods-

Without providing too much info, I can say that this material can take extreme amounts of compressive force if the layup is correct. If force is applied out of plain or side ways, it is very flexible. Not knowing if these rods see any out of plan forces in the operation of the valve train, it would be hard to guess if it is a problem. The question to ask your source for this product is how it was tested.

If tested properly I would defiantly use it.

Ric.
 
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