Valvetrain not properly set up , of course the title of this post is BLOWING 3 Gees , nuff said
Blowing 3 Gees on my Six
- Thread starter Luke76
- Start date
Richard, thanks for bringing up the lifters, that is an excellent point. I had thought of maybe replacing them anyway.
Did you have any problems removing yours? I'll see if I can't find a lifter removal tool from AutoZone.
I'll ask Mike what the height increase will be, but as you can see I easily have a quarter inch to work with.
FalconSedan, I readily admit I have no idea what I'm doing most of the time, which is why I'm here on this forum, to learn from others. I'd be happy to learn from you, if you care to offer any helpful advice. Otherwise, feel free to go hang out somewhere else.
Luke
Did you have any problems removing yours? I'll see if I can't find a lifter removal tool from AutoZone.
I'll ask Mike what the height increase will be, but as you can see I easily have a quarter inch to work with.
FalconSedan, I readily admit I have no idea what I'm doing most of the time, which is why I'm here on this forum, to learn from others. I'd be happy to learn from you, if you care to offer any helpful advice. Otherwise, feel free to go hang out somewhere else.
Luke
I had no problems removing mine, it was actually too easy. I too went to autozone and found the perfect lifter removal tool. it's a telescoping pen magnet, like $5, it pulled them out just find, no problems, and it might help clean any metal dust out of your engine too. 
jk
jk
FalconSedan, I readily admit I have no idea what I'm doing most of the time, which is why I'm here on this forum, to learn from others. I'd be happy to learn from you, if you care to offer any helpful advice. Otherwise, feel free to go hang out somewhere else.
Since you asked,( helpful advice , and save money too ) Go back to the duraspark , sell the DUI to some one else on here that dosent listen , Put your carb on the right way ( Float bowl facing the valve cover ) , that should keep you busy for a while.
Since you asked,( helpful advice , and save money too ) Go back to the duraspark , sell the DUI to some one else on here that dosent listen , Put your carb on the right way ( Float bowl facing the valve cover ) , that should keep you busy for a while.
I've never asked how I could save money. And while some may say the DUI isn't necessary, it is also not a problem. I don't need advice about my ignition, my ignition works.
There is no "right" way for a carb to sit. The air going in doesn't care. My carb is mounted to the 2V adapter plate in the only direction it will go. The adapter plate was permanently attached to the log head by the machine shop.
Again, I said "helpful" advice. If you don't like me, or don't like this build, fine - just leave. No one's making you be here.
Luke
There is no "right" way for a carb to sit. The air going in doesn't care. My carb is mounted to the 2V adapter plate in the only direction it will go. The adapter plate was permanently attached to the log head by the machine shop.
Again, I said "helpful" advice. If you don't like me, or don't like this build, fine - just leave. No one's making you be here.
Luke
Ok I can be a bit blunt at times , And I guess I was busting on you a bit , However , THERE is a right way to orient the carb , if it was a slide valve and not butterflies , you would be correct , BUT , since the carb is not at wide open all the time the airflow will follow a path , And you have it ( as most do on this site ) aimed at the center cylinders , with the bowl facing the valve cover it will be deflected to the rear of the log where it has a chance to be drawn by all cylinders ( a plenum of sorts abiet small ) , if all you did was Idle or wide open, it would be ok , OK , I apoligies for my earlier post , its your money , spend it as u see fit . and I am trying to help , Ive posted before on carb mounting , and it hits deaf ears , frustration sets in and I took it out on you again sorry .
Ok Falcon, no harm no foul. What you say makes sense, I just didn't know that was the point you were driving at because I hadn't heard that theory before. But I see what you mean about the carb. And I learned something new, so thanks. I do appreciate that sort of advice.
In fact when I got the head back from the machine shop my first thought was they must have put my adapter plate on backwards, because it did look odd. For mounting convenience alone it might have been better the other way, but the shop did a poor job of consulting me and the way they attached the plate it's permanent, so it is what it is and I can't change it now. I've done many things backwards on this build but honest, that was theirs not mine!
I do appreciate advice though, and I need all I can get. Before I started this project I had honestly not even changed my own oil. I'm mechanically inclined but I lack experience with cars. I just had this car and I knew I wanted it to perform better and I wanted to work on it myself. I've wished so many times I had someone around locally who could show me the ropes. You can read descriptions on the internet but when you get into the engine, unless you've done something before, the first time is always confusing.
I easily could have avoided the issue with my head now if I knew physically how little pressure it takes between the pushrods and the arms. I thought it had to be tight so I wasn't surprised I really had to wrench down on the rocker assembly just to get it installed. Yeah, I noticed some of the springs were compressed, but hey, some of them would have to be, so what do I know? I think I bent some rods just getting the rocker shaft bolted on. That would have been a clear sign to anyone else, but I just didn't know.
It all makes sense now, after the fact... terms like "preload" have a real meaning that I didn't understand previously. When I got my shorter rods I was shocked that I was able to bolt my arm assembly completely down to the head just by turning the bolts with my fingers. So that's how it's supposed to be! Too bad I had to toast my valve seals to find out...
I've learned a lot about this engine - but almost all of it the hard way. I know it's embarrassing to watch, but you have to be a noob at some point!
Luke
In fact when I got the head back from the machine shop my first thought was they must have put my adapter plate on backwards, because it did look odd. For mounting convenience alone it might have been better the other way, but the shop did a poor job of consulting me and the way they attached the plate it's permanent, so it is what it is and I can't change it now. I've done many things backwards on this build but honest, that was theirs not mine!
I do appreciate advice though, and I need all I can get. Before I started this project I had honestly not even changed my own oil. I'm mechanically inclined but I lack experience with cars. I just had this car and I knew I wanted it to perform better and I wanted to work on it myself. I've wished so many times I had someone around locally who could show me the ropes. You can read descriptions on the internet but when you get into the engine, unless you've done something before, the first time is always confusing.
I easily could have avoided the issue with my head now if I knew physically how little pressure it takes between the pushrods and the arms. I thought it had to be tight so I wasn't surprised I really had to wrench down on the rocker assembly just to get it installed. Yeah, I noticed some of the springs were compressed, but hey, some of them would have to be, so what do I know? I think I bent some rods just getting the rocker shaft bolted on. That would have been a clear sign to anyone else, but I just didn't know.
It all makes sense now, after the fact... terms like "preload" have a real meaning that I didn't understand previously. When I got my shorter rods I was shocked that I was able to bolt my arm assembly completely down to the head just by turning the bolts with my fingers. So that's how it's supposed to be! Too bad I had to toast my valve seals to find out...
I've learned a lot about this engine - but almost all of it the hard way. I know it's embarrassing to watch, but you have to be a noob at some point!
Luke
Sorry to hear you are having all the trouble. While the head is off again you might want to check to make sure the valve springs are set to correct install height. On many engine builds when you start adding a higher lift cam or high ratio rocker arms there might be a need to machine the guides down some to gain enough clearance between the retainers and the valve seals at full lift. As too the length of push rod sometimes it takes a custom length to get the proper rocker geometry. The ideal would be for the roller tip to be as close to center of the valve stem through out the arc of movement this gives the best performance and a longer lifetime because of the least side loading of the valve to guide. Good luck
Update: Bubba, your advice is exactly what the guy at the machine shop just gave me. Wish I'd found these guys before, they are local and very friendly, and didn't mind taking time out of their day to talk to me and explain things.
Anyway they looked over the head. Fortunately the only thing damaged were the valve seals, which they replaced. They also machined the guides as you suggested Bubba. In fact he wondered why Portland Engine Rebuilders hadn't done this in the first place. After machining and replacing the seals, he did a test were he compressed the spring to the point the coils were touching and even then there was clearance between the retainer and valve guide. So that is taken care of.
In the meanwhile I received my oil-through lifters from Mike and installed those. Richard you were right, this was a very simple procedure using nothing but a magnet-stick. You were also right, the oil-throughs are a very slight bit taller than the stock lifters - about 3/16", though I didn't mic them (should have).
I only got the head back yesterday and got it back on, along with new gaskets. With the higher lifters my pushrod geometry looks much better. I confirmed that throughout the engine cycle there was never a coil bind situation.
I'm now waiting on some stainless bolts for my carb, as I noticed my previous ones were going to rust. They probably won't arrive until next week... my carb arrangement is a real bear, so I think I'll wait till then to finish her up. I'll take some more photos at that time... Hopefully I'm near the end (at least with the engine... still have lots of other things that need work).
Thanks guys for the support,
Luke
Anyway they looked over the head. Fortunately the only thing damaged were the valve seals, which they replaced. They also machined the guides as you suggested Bubba. In fact he wondered why Portland Engine Rebuilders hadn't done this in the first place. After machining and replacing the seals, he did a test were he compressed the spring to the point the coils were touching and even then there was clearance between the retainer and valve guide. So that is taken care of.
In the meanwhile I received my oil-through lifters from Mike and installed those. Richard you were right, this was a very simple procedure using nothing but a magnet-stick. You were also right, the oil-throughs are a very slight bit taller than the stock lifters - about 3/16", though I didn't mic them (should have).
I only got the head back yesterday and got it back on, along with new gaskets. With the higher lifters my pushrod geometry looks much better. I confirmed that throughout the engine cycle there was never a coil bind situation.
I'm now waiting on some stainless bolts for my carb, as I noticed my previous ones were going to rust. They probably won't arrive until next week... my carb arrangement is a real bear, so I think I'll wait till then to finish her up. I'll take some more photos at that time... Hopefully I'm near the end (at least with the engine... still have lots of other things that need work).
Thanks guys for the support,
Luke
Make sure you treat the engine like it was a first start , the lifters need a break in time 20 min at 2000 , if you don't you stand a good chance at wiping the cam!
well to be honest , the bottoms of the lifters should of been lubed along with the lobes , and by all means add the additive , and make sure you use a good Zinc filled oil , either Racing Oil or a min 15w40 Diesel oil .
kevinl1058
Well-known member
Luke sorry to hear that your exp. with PER has been a negative one. They have still been very helpful with my quest in tuning my tri-power. Continued good luck with your build.
KEv
KEv
Not likely on the Wretched noises or flames. The cam lobes and lifter bottoms would wear and you lose lift engine would be down on power worse that can happen is a lobe or two would go Flat. Don't worry though and hope for the best this is not as common unless you are running high spring pressures. If you can try to prelude engine very well as you can before you start it that would be of help too. Than make sure you run engine for 20 to 30 min at 2,000 to 2500 rpm (keeps lifters and cam lobes oiled good) same as if you were breaking in a new cam (wearing in the lobe to lifter). If you need to tune some it's all right to shut it off and do your settings than start and finish up. Since you all ready ran it with the cam it should not be quite as bad. I think that if you also wanted to change the carb position 180 degrees than a custom reversed spacer could be made to do that, Good luck
Thanks for the advice Bubba. The cam is the stock one and has plenty of miles on it, if that helps anything. Before I turn her on, I was planning to do as I did last time to help out with the rockers - remove the spark plugs (to make it easier on the battery/starter), and crank her over with ignition off a dozen or so times until I see oil gushing out the top of the rockers. By then I suspect the oil should be circulated fairly well. But if there is a better procedure to pre-start the oil then I'm all ears.
I'll also toss in the zinc additive, that stuff is thicker than honey so it surely can't hurt.
Won't be till next week I fire her up, but I'll let you know how it goes. Anyone else have last minute words of warning don't hesitate!
Luke
I'll also toss in the zinc additive, that stuff is thicker than honey so it surely can't hurt.
Won't be till next week I fire her up, but I'll let you know how it goes. Anyone else have last minute words of warning don't hesitate!
Luke
Finally drove her this weekend for the first time in about a year. There's several issues, but the main one is with my transmission and not my engine, which I can deal with separately.
I did the recommended break-in, ran her for 35 minutes at 2,500 RPM. No fire or explosions, and the engine sounds very smooth (from the engine compartment). Once you get into the cab there is a loud, low pulsating throb almost, which at first I thought must be something horribly wrong. Maybe it is... but putting my ear to the engine I can't hear a thing. You can hear it inside the car and underneath the car. I don't think it is the transmission since you hear it the same in park or neutral or whatever. My best guess is that it is some weird harmonic from the exhaust. Maybe due to the fact that 3 & 4 exhaust are connected at the manifold due to the divider being poorly installed by PER, or maybe this is just the way headers sound - I wouldn't know since I've never had headers before. You don't really hear the throbbing sounds out the tailpipe, but maybe the muffler removes it by then.
The more annoying thing while driving is a "clacking" sound I get at partial throttle. I don't think this is what people call "pinging", but I could be wrong. It doesn't occur on acceleration or coasting, only when I am at partial throttle trying to maintain some speed. The absolute speed doesn't seem to matter, just so long as the throttle is consistent I hear this clacking. If it were pinging due to detonation I would guess it would be worse on acceleration, instead of going away.
Any thoughts on that one? My guess is that maybe I have a rocker adjusted a bit too loose (I have been a bit paranoid about overtightening them). I can't get the sound to occur when the car is stopped, so I can't put my ear to the valve cover and try to hear which one. Should I just go through and tighten them all maybe one quarter turn more? Again I'm paranoid of breaking something, and I don't want to bend any rods again...
Luke
PS: You guys deserve some pictures. She's a mixture of shiny and gross:
(Click to Enlarge)
(Click to Enlarge)
I did the recommended break-in, ran her for 35 minutes at 2,500 RPM. No fire or explosions, and the engine sounds very smooth (from the engine compartment). Once you get into the cab there is a loud, low pulsating throb almost, which at first I thought must be something horribly wrong. Maybe it is... but putting my ear to the engine I can't hear a thing. You can hear it inside the car and underneath the car. I don't think it is the transmission since you hear it the same in park or neutral or whatever. My best guess is that it is some weird harmonic from the exhaust. Maybe due to the fact that 3 & 4 exhaust are connected at the manifold due to the divider being poorly installed by PER, or maybe this is just the way headers sound - I wouldn't know since I've never had headers before. You don't really hear the throbbing sounds out the tailpipe, but maybe the muffler removes it by then.
The more annoying thing while driving is a "clacking" sound I get at partial throttle. I don't think this is what people call "pinging", but I could be wrong. It doesn't occur on acceleration or coasting, only when I am at partial throttle trying to maintain some speed. The absolute speed doesn't seem to matter, just so long as the throttle is consistent I hear this clacking. If it were pinging due to detonation I would guess it would be worse on acceleration, instead of going away.
Any thoughts on that one? My guess is that maybe I have a rocker adjusted a bit too loose (I have been a bit paranoid about overtightening them). I can't get the sound to occur when the car is stopped, so I can't put my ear to the valve cover and try to hear which one. Should I just go through and tighten them all maybe one quarter turn more? Again I'm paranoid of breaking something, and I don't want to bend any rods again...
Luke
PS: You guys deserve some pictures. She's a mixture of shiny and gross:
(Click to Enlarge)
(Click to Enlarge)
kevinl1058
Well-known member
If your ever in the Beaverton Area. Swing it by and I can lend an ear to help diagnose. Kev. just PM when your going to run through and I'll give you my cell. My Sunday's are swamped for the next few weeks so late saturday works best for the next few weeks.