Engine rebuild for daily

electrorc

electrorc

Well-known member
06/09/2011 Edit: This is from last year, so check towards the end of the thread for more recent info.
The 200 in my Mustang let go back in August. It had really low compression and a completely dead cylinder—compression was around 90 for most cylinders, 60 for 1 or 2, and 0 for another. I eventually pulled the valve cover and found a pushrod that had bent and was broken. I tried just replacing it with a new one, but it ended up just dropping down too much to reconnect to the rocker arm.
I haven’t been able to pull the head off yet since there’s no room in the garage, but I’m assuming it’s going to need a total rebuild. Instead of rebuilding it, I wanted to just get a reman engine to save some money, but I can’t find anywhere that actually has decent comments about them. I had a couple of local shops recommended to me, but I’m not sure what to do for parts. The Classic Inlines rebuild kit seems to end up costing quite a bit more than the one from Clifford, and then of course there’s the ones from Sealed Power and what not, but they all include different things. The head and exhaust manifold on the engine right now have a date code from ’63, so I’ll probably end up purchasing a rebuilt '70s head or maybe trying to find one from the junkyard and getting it rebuilt.
The car will be a daily driver, so it needs to be reliable. I’d also like a little bit of extra power than stock for if I end up going to the strip or autocross or anything. I’m also on a budget, unfortunately.
And one other thing… I keep seeing something about an adapter that lets you use the 3.03 3 speed with the 2.77 bellhousing. Since I’m not having any luck finding a later six around me, is this a good idea? Where can I find it?
Thanks!
 
I've used a website http://www.car-part.com to search for parts and engines.

You may find a usable engine on it, or a late model head.
When you search for an engine, don't go above a 1980 because of the low mounted starter; an 80+ head would work with your engine with a milling to get the compression back up.
 
Yeah, I've checked car-part.com several times. Most of the stuff I've seen on there is at least 300 miles away, though. Most of the junkyards around here only have later models.
 
Here's one right down the road from you in New Philadelphia, $300OBO with 37K

http://akroncanton.craigslist.org/pts/1759511970.html

I have a 200ci 6cyl engine out of a 1965 mustang for sale. It has 37,000 miles on it and it ran great when I pulled it out last week. Its been sitting in my garage and I want it outta the way. I dont really need to sell it but im not going to use it for anything. it is complete minus the waterpump pulley and the alternator. I would like to get it sold soon because im tired of tripping over it. I'll take any reasonable offer because im not 100% sure of its value. Im asking $300 o.b.o. call me or text me at 330-440-5423. If you throw in a little more cash i may include the 3 speed transmission. Thank you for looking
 
Another one in Pittsburgh from a 78 Granada, $250

http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/pts/1725224352.html

1978 Ford 200 in line straight 6 engine in 1978 Granada.
You can hear the engine run before you buy the engine.
The car has less than 100,000 and the body and transmission are both bad.
I have a pick-up and I can pull the engine and deliver it for $1.00 per mile.
 
Wow rocklord, thanks for searching and finding all of those! I should probably clarify my location though--I live in Belton, MO and am only in Cleveland during the school year for college. As such, unfortunately most of those are too far away, other than the one in Columbia. :|
I did find one that's been rebuilt and is a few hours away in Wichita, KS: http://wichita.craigslist.org/pts/1722712540.html
which I guess would be an okay way to go instead of just rebuilding mine, but then I'd need to find a bellhousing, clutch linkage, transmission, etc.
 
Howdy Electrorc:

And welcome to The Forum. You didn't say what year your Mustang is or what you know about the history of the engine. That would be helpful to know to be able to offer suggestions to you. The low compressions could be related completely to the head, more specifically the valves. It might be more enlightening to you to pull the head since the car is not running now. The 63 casting code could easily be on a '64 or early '65 Mustang from the factory. Any year of vehicle after that will make one wonder what swapping went on before, and why? Also what year of 200 block will be an issue in finding the right adapter to upgrade to a 3.03 trans. The 3.03 first appeared in the '67 model year, so finding an engine/trans core to rebuild would eliminate the need for an adapter completely. Between Belton and Cleveland there should be some great pickin'/recycling yards.

Anyway, the bent pushrod made me scratch my head a little. What could cause a push rod to bend? I'd sure want to look deeper into this engine to diagnose before I made up my mind to buy parts. Time and space are always issues for a Mustang project, but it is sitting someplace right now. Pulling the head won't take any more room and you'll have a more complete picture of the problem.

A shop rebuild will be more expensive, but it will be more specific to your needs. It is also easier to pursue warrenty issues with a shop than a one-size-fits-all rebuilder.

Just some more for you to think about. Update us with your details. Keep us posted on your progress.

Adios, David
 
Oh sorry, I had put some info in my intro post and then forgot it here. The Mustang is a '65, and the block is a 65 as well, casting C5DE-H if I remember correctly. The car is a really late '65, scheduled build date of July 29, 1965 (29U). Some restoration stuff has been done, but the only stuff I actually know about is a bunch of new interior pieces, a new gas tank, and a few general tune up bits.
I don't really know anything about the engine. The guy I bought it from said it had sat for a few years with the previous owner. It had a very slight tapping noise that the guy said was most likely a lifter, and it seemed pretty logical, and it all seemed okay when I first drove it. It started smoking a little bit and was shaking pretty bad at idle by a couple of days after I got it home. Vacuum gauge bounced around a lot near idle and then smoothed out a little if I remember correctly.
And I will definitely pull the head, I just want to get it out of the garage first so I don't end up making a mess of everything else down there, as I'm sure I will, when I drain the coolant.
Here's the pushrod, not that it offers much in terms of diagnosis:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27162877@N07/4648261437/
 
electrorc,

Forgive my manners. Welcome to the forum.

The 68 engine should have the dual bolt block for the bellhousing, meaning it will accept either a 2.77 or 3.03 bell.
The engine should be a direct bolt in. A difference between the two years is the 68 engine should have a vacuum advance distributor and corresponding carb.
 
electrorc

Welcome.

electrorc":9jcwro0o said:
found a pushrod that had bent and was broken. I tried just replacing it with a new one, but it ended up just dropping down too much to reconnect to the rocker arm.
Click to expand...

I am going to show my age here but back in '68 I inherited my Fathers '61 chevy with a 235 inline 6. I pulled the valve cover and rocker arm assembly just fine but when I pulled the push rods I pulled the top part of the lifter right off as the retaining clip was gone. Needless to say When I put the push rod back in it was way to short. This sounds like your problem. On my engine there was a side cover allowing access to the lifters so I put the top back in and installed the push rod. It ran fine for years. From then on I always use a side ward motion to remove push rods, Your engine does not have a side cover but it might be possible to use a magnetic probe to retrieve it and reinstall it.

electrorc":9jcwro0o said:
shaking pretty bad at idle by a couple of days after I got it home. Vacuum gauge bounced around a lot near idle and then smoothed out a little if I remember correctly.
Click to expand...

electrorc":9jcwro0o said:
compression was around 90 for most cylinders, 60 for 1 or 2, and 0 for another
Click to expand...

This is the systems for non responsive valves on one or more cylenders. If you fix the lifter your engine might start to run fairly good after running for a few hundred miles. As for your low compression reading was the throttle held full open, all spark plugs removed and was a strong fully charged battery used.

I would fix the lifter if possible and tune up the engine and drive it around if it safe. Others may disagree but I believe in 'if it aint broke don't fix it' or at least do the minimum until it is nessasary to do a complete rebuild.
 
To 69.5Mav: Now that you mention it, I do remember there still seeming to be something rattling around down in the lifter area when I was trying to retrieve the other part of the broken pushrod. More about that later. I have no idea how the compression check was done; a shop did it when they were looking at it. I didn't think too much to ask them how they did since I didn't know much about the process.

I ended up getting the cylinder head pulled today, though I'm without my only previously-drivable vehicle now as I blew a metal brake hard line in the Ranger I've been driving :(
Anyway, from the top down I guess. The stands on the rocker shaft are a combination of C0DE and C1DE parts. Everything on the top end of the head seemed pretty clean. As I was pulling the pushrods, I found another one that was horribly bent like the broken one, but hadn't broken yet. Seemed to be bent and scored in the same way though. A couple other ones are bowed and scored a little as well.

My apologies for the slow load time on the pictures, especially for the full-size images (those are a few megabytes, by the way). I just put them on my home server for now.
Head off: The pistons and everything don't seem all that dirty, and it had a Fel-Pro head gasket on it. Found the lifter that I'm guessing was what was loose back in August when I tried to replace the pushrod. See here, or here for full image.

Overall view of headless engine (full)

Tiny nick in one of the pistons (full)

I don't know if it shows up all that well, but one cylinder had a lifter that was kind of sitting up a little higher in the bore than the others: small image, (full image)

Pistons seem to be really close to the top of the block:
Picture 1, small (full image)
Picture 2, small (full image)

And finally, the pistons are marked 040. Does this indicate .040 over or is it another marking?
Small image (full image)

And the last of the pictures.
Cylinder head (full image)

Part of the head (full image)

Cylinder wall (full image)

Edit: Sorry about the links to the full-size images. They should work now.
 
I'd like to see those pushrods.
I'd be looking at the timing chain and all the bearings, oil pump.
Distributor drive shaft OK?
 
electrorc":3swdk440 said:
And finally, the pistons are marked 040. Does this indicate .040 over or is it another marking?
Click to expand...

Yes, should be .040 over, but you can use a mic and compare the bore with the specs on CI tech pages to be sure.

69.5Mav":3swdk440 said:
I would fix the lifter if possible and tune up the engine and drive it around if it safe.
Click to expand...

IIWIYS, I'd go with 69.5Mav's thoughts. Taking a minimalist (fixing what's broken) approach, I'd replace any lifters associated with stuck valves while thead was off (if it's just a couple, R&R just those two). I'd examine all the push rods as jackfish suggests, then I'd take the butt of a hammer and push down carefully and squarely on each valve to see which if any are still stuck...if any are take the other end of the hammer and lightly tap them till they free up....then I'd probably put a little lubriplate (or maybe a little atf) on top edge of the boss where it meets the stem on any formerly stuck valve and push them down & allow them to spring up till I was sure they were moving fairly freely. Replace any push rods as necessary, head gasket and slap her back together.

Chances are the valves stuck from a long sit (as mentioned, I think), and could easily be stuck in non seated position so compression test no.s would be unreliable...you could do one yourself after reassembly. Looks like from one of the pics that the block has been decked some, and the suspended lifter likely stuck there due to a broken push rod not pushing it back down. With 40 over pistons and clean enough bores (I can't tell this part from pics) you should be okay, this engine may not have many miles since rebuild...rings will be a question, but you'll answer that in the process. Of course you could replace rings as well, but then you might as well plastigauge bearings and go the whole nine yards. I think the path of least resistance&cost process above is woth a shot and not impractical on these durable blocks...this engine might just have suffered from sitting and still could have some good quality life left yet. Otherwise I'd go with Dan's thoughts and get a new to you (best available) setup in the meantime.
Good luck!

EDIT: PS to dot your i's & cross your t's...I'd probably make sure that if the engine was decked significantly PO or someone else didn't use push rods that were too long.
 
electrorc

My advice was primarily aimed at helping you to not have to take the head off. Now that it is off I recommend a valve job just to be thorough.

electrorc":30mvkdzk said:
And finally, the pistons are marked 040. Does this indicate .040 over or is it another marking
Click to expand...

I can see in your picture that some one has used a ridge reamer a little too aggressively. That told me that the engine had been rebuilt and the 40 over pistons confirmed it.

electrorc":30mvkdzk said:
Tiny nick in one of the pistons
Click to expand...

Check the corresponding valve for any damage. It looks like a valve may have said 'hello' to that piston.

Frankenstang":30mvkdzk said:
I'd probably make sure that if the engine was decked significantly PO or someone else didn't use push rods that were too long.
Click to expand...

Good Call. Be sure and check this. PO could have missed this and found the engine running like crap after all the work to rebuild it and dumped it in disgust. You might also consider getting a set of ajustable Rocker Arms while you've got everything apart.
 
Alright, here are the pushrods. I'm only linking to the pictures of the ones that are messed up in some way; the others seem to be fine. I numbered them from the front to the back of the engine.
Number 3
(full image)

Number 3 scoring
(full image)

Bend in number 3
(full image)

Number five
(full image)

Scoring on number 5
(full image)

Number 8
(full image)

Bend in number 8
(full image)

Number 10
(full image)

Scoring in 10
(full image)

And after the mention of the oil pump, I remembered something else that was really wrong with it... It started having an oil pressure issue. It was fine during normal driving, but as I would come to a stop at a stop sign, it would kind of flicker the oil pressure light. I tried switching to a thicker oil (Shell Rotella-T 15w-40) but that didn't seem to make a difference, though I only tried it with that for a few miles before parking it.

The distributor appears to be okay with no scoring anywhere that I see or any marks on the gear, but I didn't pull the smaller shaft out that sits just below the distributor itself. I'm still trying to find my magnetic pick-up thing or get a new one.

I didn't notice any marks on any of the valves, and they all opened by pushing on them with the end of a hammer. However, one thing I did notice is that they don't seem to close all the way. I'm not sure what they should look like, but only a couple of the valve faces seem to sit flush with the rest of the chamber. All of the valves seem to sit up a little bit into the chamber and aren't flush.

What do I need to do to check the pushrods? Put the head back on, along with the pushrods and rockers, and see where the rocker arm tip is contacting the valve?

And I had to pull the head off--there was no way I could get the top of that lifter to come up through the pushrod guide hole, nor could I properly get it back where it belonged. My big concern over just replacing the lifters and pushrods, and maybe doing some valve work, is where the clip or whatever for that lifter went. The other lifters have the two little clips running across the top, I presume to hold the top of the lifter in place. As that is nowhere to be found so far, I'm guessing that had to have worked its way into the engine, presumably somewhere it especially doesn't belong?

And would it be a good idea to go ahead and pull the timing cover and everything and maybe the oil pan too, just to check things out there?

Thanks for all the help so far everyone; I really appreciate it!
 
electrorc

electrorc":yjwvvyqi said:
I had to pull the head off--there was no way I could get the top of that lifter to come up through the pushrod guide hole, nor could I properly get it back where it belonged
Click to expand...

Understood. It is nice to have a side cover. I have thought of switching to a 240/300 just to get one.

electrorc":yjwvvyqi said:
The other lifters have the two little clips running across the top, I presume to hold the top of the lifter in place. As that is nowhere to be found so far
Click to expand...

I think it is just one bigger clip. It's probably in the pan

electrorc":yjwvvyqi said:
It started having an oil pressure issue
Click to expand...

Was the engine making any rod noise. This is sometimes caused by worn rod bearings among other things

electrorc":yjwvvyqi said:
maybe doing some valve work
Click to expand...

I would get a valve job done by a reputable shop now that it is off.

electrorc":yjwvvyqi said:
would it be a good idea to go ahead and pull the timing cover and everything and maybe the oil pan too
Click to expand...

Might be a good idea to check the timing chain for stretch and the rod bearings with plasti gage. But once you get it that torn down you are almost at the total rebuild stage.

As for the Push Rod length you would have to know how much they shaved off the block and head. Some shops stamp the amount on to the block and head. Otherwise I would suggest getting an adjustable rocker arm setup and you will need all new push rods with it cause they are different.

Questions I should have asked at the beginning.

1. What's your skill level? Master Mechanic or beginner? Is any one helping you? What's their skill level?
2. What's your budget like? Rule of thumb, IT ALWAYS COSTS MORE THEN YOU THINK.
3. Most importantly, what's your plan? Do you want a stock rebuild or a slightly warmed over engine or a full race engine? A daily driver, Weekend cruiser or Drag raiser?

These questions should help to focus the effort.
 
1) I'm still pretty close to a beginner, at least as far as this kind of stuff goes. I took a small engine repair class in high school, and I helped a little when my brother did a top-end rebuild on a Jeep inline six. On my own cars though, I haven't done much more than simple maintenance stuff. I've got a couple of people that can help me with some labor and stuff, but they're not really anymore skilled than I am.
2) Budget... pretty tight. I've been planning on about 2000 for the engine, but I'd be a lot more comfortable if it came out to be less. I still need to do floors and some other rust repair, and I'd like to get disc brakes up front.
3) Daily driver, will be making 800 mile drives to and from college on occasion as well. I'd like a little extra performance, but the most power I've ever had in a car was one with a Chevy 305 with like 145 hp or something. So I don't need anything too extreme. I'd also like to maybe do some autocross and maybe the drag strip a couple of times, but not much. I was pretty happy with the performance of this engine on the way home after buying it, other than wishing it had a couple more gears.

I don't recall it making any weird noises that it didn't have already from the lifter when it started having the oil pressure issues.

I pulled the oil pan today. There still wasn't any sign of the clip from the lifter though. Everything inside seemed pretty new, except maybe the cam. Is there any good way to check the timing chain? When I kinda pushed on it, it seemed to have a lot of play, but I'm not sure how to actually check it. Chilton's manual kinda mentions it, but I didn't look at it too much yet.

As for the head, yeah I definitely plan on doing something with it. I might try finding one from a junkyard off a late-70's model and having that rebuilt, or I'll just order a rebuilt one. I probably won't reuse this one since it's a '63.

Here's the links to the directories for the pictures I took today of the internals; I'm not going to separately link each image. Feeling kind of lazy.
Small images
Full-size images
 
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