Partial upgrade now or wait ??

J

jlopes

Well-known member
I completed my disk brake, electronic ignition, t5 and 8" upgrade and am getting itchy to start the next phase of my 65 mustang "upgrade".

My next step is the engine.
I plan on a CI Al head and all the other goodies that go along it. However I do not have cash to do it all at once at this point in time. I figure another year before I can afford everything.

So the question I have is there any benefit to only do part of the upgrade now and wait until next year for the AL head itself?? Besides sounding better :thumbdown: will there actually be any performance benefit?

I have enough for the following:
CI headers
Spintech muffler
1.6 rocker assembly - either adjustable or roller-tip: not sure if the extra $220 is worth it? Any opinions on this?
Cam package
 
Howdy Jlopes,

It's really my opinion but I choose "do it once, do it right"

what is the complete build that you're looking for on the engine?
 
I would religiously avoid any internal mods such as the cam until you are ready for a complete rebuild. I had a great experience adding headers, exhaust, a carb, a DUI and then modding my head with bigger valves, raised compression, direct mount 2v and roller rockers all little by little over the course of six or so years. This let me have fun, learn about my car, and be rewarded by improvements in performance, and trickle the money out instead of dumping it all at once. Installing a cam, however, revealed all of the inherent weaknesses in my worn out engine. I could never get it to run right and the old rings took a dump on me. I finally had to do a total rebuild which cost a pretty penny since I did it "right."
 
p.s. consider the CI exhaust kit instead of the spintech muffler. I think you will find the experience of installing headers and an exhaust as a total "kit" far more rewarding than cobbling together a piecemeal system. Also, you don't mention a carb in your list, but if you did carb, ignition and exhaust all together you would get a nice boost in performance and these are all pieces you can retain as you continue your upgrades.
 
p.p.s. Once you get the exhaust installed have a bung put in for a wideband O2 sensor. I have the AEM which I was able to get for about $225 delivered. It is essential for carb jetting, especially if you plan on continuing to do upgrades. A real time (and headache saver).

So my recommendation for a base upgrade would be:
Header with exhaust
Ignition (DSII with a nice module, or a DUI) + wires
carb w/adapter
O2 sensor

If you are planning on running FI with your CI head, or a 4v, then I can understand where the carb might not be a good investment. But Stovebolt has webers for $65, so you could alwasy go that route as a stopgap measure.
 
thanks for the info... I will definitely look at CI exhaust kit.

I already purchased an Autolite 4100 1.08 off of ebay quite a few months ago in preparation for the CI Head. I haven't rebuilt it yet, since that is an inside winter project. Obviously this would be too much carb for the stock head so I will put this off until I get the CI head, next spring :LOL:

I have already upgraded to a DSII, in fact that was the first thing I did when I bought the car 2 years ago after discovering this forum.

I guess I will go with the great sound and live with the poor performance for a little bit longer. :(

that's the beauty of these old cars, whatever I want to do somebody has already tried and are willing to share.
 
MPGmustang":3d0v8yku said:
Howdy Jlopes,

It's really my opinion but I choose "do it once, do it right"

what is the complete build that you're looking for on the engine?
Click to expand...

what I hope to do is show all the "are you going to drop an 8cyl in it" guys that we don't need no stink'n 8 cyl to smoke the tires :D

I have been working on the car's "infrastructure" for the last couple of years to make sure that it will support the added hp and torque . This is what I have done so far:
DSII
Front discs
Lowered rear, 1" drop springs in the front
Shelby drop
roller spring perches
Monte Carlo bar
Export Brace
T5 from 4 cyl
8" 3.20 rear end.

Yet to do:
sub-frame connectors
R&P steering or Borgeson steer box.

Here is the plan for the engine:
CI Head and Intake Manifold. Street/strip port
CI Headers
Autolite 4100 1.08 carb
zero deck block
new pistons
arp bolts
cam : 1.08 lob separation, not sure on the profile yet. I am more interested in bottom end torque than top end.
rocker arm: 1.6 ratio: don't know whether to do roller tip or not
double roller timing chain

Is there anything I am missing?
 
I did a timing chain swap as one of the first mods on mine.
With the double roller chain advanced 4° you will feel a difference in performance, and it's a cheap upgrade you can do right now. The cost of the chain and gaskets might set you back $150.
 
JackFish":2qn596qo said:
I did a timing chain swap as one of the first mods on mine.
With the double roller chain advanced 4° you will feel a difference in performance, and it's a cheap upgrade you can do right now. The cost of the chain and gaskets might set you back $150.
Click to expand...
Not really questioning your judgement, just still learning. But wouldn't that push his torque curve higher up in the rpm range? Exactly opposite of what he's trying to do?
 
Explorer... I always was told that it lowers the rpm range on the cam... If it's made 'ground up' it's 4* retarded, so you advance it 4* to make it stock... but if the maker of the cam made it 'ground @ .50' then that 4* was already calculated in the cam grind.

my CSC was made 'ground up' so it wasn't made @ .50 so I added the 4* to make it stock... the cam is 1600 to 5200 rpm, If I advanced it 2* more it would put the rpm range 500rpm sooner so around 1100 to 4700 rpm. it makes the breathing happen sooner.

if I'm wrong pls some one correct me...

Richard
 
Explorer... I always was told that it lowers the rpm range on the cam... If it's made 'ground up' it's 4* retarded, so you advance it 4* to make it stock... but if the maker of the cam made it 'ground @ .50' then that 4* was already calculated in the cam grind.

my CSC was made 'ground up' so it wasn't made @ .50 so I added the 4* to make it stock... the cam is 1600 to 5200 rpm, If I advanced it 2* more it would put the rpm range 500rpm sooner so around 1100 to 4700 rpm. it makes the breathing happen sooner.
Click to expand...

You are correct if you advance cam it gives more bottom end power and losses some of the top end! :nod:
 
Love this feature that won't let you post till you read that something else has been posted! Thanks guy's. I'm here to learn. Now that I think about it, told the builder to go 4* and he set it straight up.
 
It's a shame that he did not do as you asked :thumbdown: This mod really helps with the smaller engines :nod:
 
bubba22349":1pmlgpvc said:
You are correct if you advance cam it gives more bottom end power and losses some of the top end! :nod:
Click to expand...

8) only as a general rule of thumb. most of the time it is true that if you advance a cam you gain low end torque at the expense of top end power, and when you retard the cam you lose low end torque and gain top end power. however, there are times that advancing a cam not only increases low end torque, it also increase top end power. the only way to tell for sure is on the dyno.
 
If your block is in good shape and was rebuilt recently, you will notice performance gains with a cam upgrade. However, it sounds like you plan to have the engine rebuilt before doing the rest of the mods, so I would wait, else you are just wasting money on the cam. Though I guess it's possible to reuse the cam on the same engine provided the journals aren't replaced.

You will see an improvement in performance from 1.6 roller rockers. They will effectively increase the lift of the valves much the same way a cam upgrade would do and will drastically improve the breathing of the engine. I was amazed at the difference in performance the extra lift will provide.

Until you upgrade the breathing of the engine, exhaust upgrades will net very little if any performance gain.

Good luck! It's nice to see you got the solid basics done first, like brakes, transmission and rear end.
 
Not trying to hijack, trying to add insight, and answers to questions.
I am always learning on this site.

1. So advancing the cam 4 degrees usually moves some power to bottom end and adding high lift arms should increase hp and torque overall?

2. In addition to this you may bump the ignition timing a little for a slight increase as well?

3. Later on you could add a performance cam to this advanced 4 degrees for further increase?

This sounds good for the 250 in my Bronco.
Thanks in advance for your response.
 
1. So advancing the cam 4 degrees usually moves some power to bottom end and adding high lift arms should increase hp and torque overall?

2. In addition to this you may bump the ignition timing a little for a slight increase as well?

3. Later on you could add a performance cam to this advanced 4 degrees for further increase?
Click to expand...

1. yes though this usally this is done with a stock cam as a custom cam would be already ground this way.
2. short answer is yes
3. Prob. not see end of 1. :unsure:
 
bmbm40":21f5g4ng said:
Not trying to hijack, trying to add insight, and answers to questions.
I am always learning on this site.

1. So advancing the cam 4 degrees usually moves some power to bottom end and adding high lift arms should increase hp and torque overall?
Click to expand...

yes to both.

2. In addition to this you may bump the ignition timing a little for a slight increase as well?
Click to expand...

again yes, but be careful adding timing, too much and you can get a hard hot start issue, and you can run into detonation as well.

3. Later on you could add a performance cam to this advanced 4 degrees for further increase?
Click to expand...

yes, adding four degrees advance will still help low end power, but again be careful here as well. you want to degree the cam before you advance or retard the cam to make sure things are like they are supposed to be. also be careful that you dont add too much lift if you are also using higher ratio rocker arms, it can load the valve springs excessively, and it can also create a coil bind condition.

This sounds good for the 250 in my Bronco.
Thanks in advance for your response.[/quote]
 
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