That would work fine , the it wont move until from the above post IS WRONG , Been at this ( and good at it not just old ) for 30+ years , just make sure of the bolt circle pattern and the spline count 24,or26
What stall converter do I need?
- Thread starter michael_cini
- Start date
michael_cini
Well-known member
Gene Fiore (post earlier in thread) has a 250 with C4 and he has a 2800, he said it works fine. Just curious, what is the stall speed in the stock one?
Thanks. How do I find out bolt circle pattern and spline count on my C4?
64 200 ranchero":6pmkw3ww said:
Thanks. How do I find out bolt circle pattern and spline count on my C4?
FalconSedanDelivery":6pmkw3ww said:
The spline count is for the input shaft was 24 thru mid 69 later is 26 , as for bolt pattern its the spacing of the converter to flexplate bolts , you may need to remove the converter to be sure as for stock stall aprox 1800
i was thinking of something else when i posted that 
, to correct myself, the stall converter will cause the trans to act like its slipping
, to correct myself, the stall converter will cause the trans to act like its slippingI had a similar problem with the 250 head and YF carb on my 200. I tired a few different YF actually, plus did a whole lot of troubleshooting. And still the same problem: idles fine out of gear but rougher than a corn cob in gear. And after multiple checks for vacuum leaks and nothing and regardless of the mixture screw setting the thing just wouldn't work. Well I finally install a different carb; instead of a YF went with a 1940 FoMoCo service Replacement carb. The idle is a ton smoother in gear now. I narrowed it down to a lean idle circuit and think I'm right.
So can you change the idle circuit in your carb? I drilled out the idle jet and it helped but not enough. I wished I could have made the idle air bleed smaller to help get more fuel into the emulsion passage. Anyway, to get more fuel at idle you need to either increase the idle "jet" OR make the air bleed smaller. AFAIK all carbs have some type of metering for both the bleed air and gas thru the idle circuit. By decreasing the inlet of air it make the fuel flow increase...
So can you change the idle circuit in your carb? I drilled out the idle jet and it helped but not enough. I wished I could have made the idle air bleed smaller to help get more fuel into the emulsion passage. Anyway, to get more fuel at idle you need to either increase the idle "jet" OR make the air bleed smaller. AFAIK all carbs have some type of metering for both the bleed air and gas thru the idle circuit. By decreasing the inlet of air it make the fuel flow increase...
michael_cini
Well-known member
i contacted mike from classic inlines today by email. he said i do not need a new torque converter, but asked if i had the cam degreed when i installed it. i told him no, the cam was installed straight up. as many of you know, there is not no chain set with multiple keyways for the 250. could NOT degeeing the cam be my problem?
Gene Fiore
Famous Member
You have to use an offset crank keyway to degree in a 250.
I have to disagree with Mike ( on the converter ) although you should ALWAYS Degree in an Aftermarket cam,
michael_cini
Well-known member
yeah. i know that the cam should have been degree'd, but there was no way to do it, except to modify it. it still seems i need another converter.
FalconSedanDelivery":113pout1 said:
Shades of Jimbo65's problems with a manual T5 Mustang.
As FordSixers have gotten more into special cams carbs and exhast/head combos, we've had similar problems for years with cammed up 200 and 250's. From info from others and practical knowledge on other engines, the use of Holley 2300 or Ford 2100/2150 style 350 or 500 cfm carbs on cammed up 200/250's requires specific cam degreeing to control a term called cold cranking compression. Engine modifiers figure out if you need to redardt or advance the camshaft, or reset the rockers on solid cam engines, based on this an the dynamic compression ratio. Often, just having an automatic gearbox or power steering, a/c , power brakes and maybee a high watt alternator can be the tipping point on how you tune the engine. Another is the early rope seal which often acentuated the poor degreeing of the camshaft in the first place. We've tended to focus on carb and ignition issues, sort of like looking in a black room for a black cat that isn't really even there...rather than bit the bullet and adjust the cam advance or retard given too much cold cranking compression for our peanut oil grade modern gasoline. If there is slightly too much duration at 30 thou lift when both intake and exhat valves are open for an automatic, then you have too 1) alter the cam timing by
a) playing with the factory suggested figure by retarding in via b) valve settings, or c) cam phasing. If the cam casting has space to allow it to be reposutions via an adjusted key way or broached tming gear, then you might not need a high stall converter. It all depends on if you can know the cold cranking compression back to less than 180 psi vai a, b, or c.
Info I have from Ford manuals seams to reiterate that Ford engineers design stall point of all C4 auto to 1650 rpm via sizing the torque converter. Hence the growth in bellhousing and converter size over the years fron 132 teeth in the Fordomatic to 136 teeth in the C4 and then to 138 teeth in the 1978-1982 C3, then 157 teeth or then 164 teeth in the last big bell 200 (C4 lock up C5) and 250's as low end torque grew through the years via cam timing alterations. So if there is a higer stall converter top around for your C4, find it ,and use it. But the cost of redoing the crank gear by offset key way, or broaching three extra keyway slots to esnure timing to 1 degree is less than a new converter if you have a willing machinist and smart mechanical engineer to work with. If your cold cranking psi is set as low as possible, Ill bet you won't need a high stall converter. No-one needs a 2800 stall converter in a 250 unless it has over 300 degrees of timing at lash, or its a turbo
Looks like 'is the cam timmed to specs' is the first port of call when a 200 or 250 with 350 or 500 cfm 2-bbl wont idle well.
As FordSixers have gotten more into special cams carbs and exhast/head combos, we've had similar problems for years with cammed up 200 and 250's. From info from others and practical knowledge on other engines, the use of Holley 2300 or Ford 2100/2150 style 350 or 500 cfm carbs on cammed up 200/250's requires specific cam degreeing to control a term called cold cranking compression. Engine modifiers figure out if you need to redardt or advance the camshaft, or reset the rockers on solid cam engines, based on this an the dynamic compression ratio. Often, just having an automatic gearbox or power steering, a/c , power brakes and maybee a high watt alternator can be the tipping point on how you tune the engine. Another is the early rope seal which often acentuated the poor degreeing of the camshaft in the first place. We've tended to focus on carb and ignition issues, sort of like looking in a black room for a black cat that isn't really even there...rather than bit the bullet and adjust the cam advance or retard given too much cold cranking compression for our peanut oil grade modern gasoline. If there is slightly too much duration at 30 thou lift when both intake and exhat valves are open for an automatic, then you have too 1) alter the cam timing by
a) playing with the factory suggested figure by retarding in via b) valve settings, or c) cam phasing. If the cam casting has space to allow it to be reposutions via an adjusted key way or broached tming gear, then you might not need a high stall converter. It all depends on if you can know the cold cranking compression back to less than 180 psi vai a, b, or c.
Info I have from Ford manuals seams to reiterate that Ford engineers design stall point of all C4 auto to 1650 rpm via sizing the torque converter. Hence the growth in bellhousing and converter size over the years fron 132 teeth in the Fordomatic to 136 teeth in the C4 and then to 138 teeth in the 1978-1982 C3, then 157 teeth or then 164 teeth in the last big bell 200 (C4 lock up C5) and 250's as low end torque grew through the years via cam timing alterations. So if there is a higer stall converter top around for your C4, find it ,and use it. But the cost of redoing the crank gear by offset key way, or broaching three extra keyway slots to esnure timing to 1 degree is less than a new converter if you have a willing machinist and smart mechanical engineer to work with. If your cold cranking psi is set as low as possible, Ill bet you won't need a high stall converter. No-one needs a 2800 stall converter in a 250 unless it has over 300 degrees of timing at lash, or its a turbo
Looks like 'is the cam timmed to specs' is the first port of call when a 200 or 250 with 350 or 500 cfm 2-bbl wont idle well.
Ok , again I dissagree , converters are rated in FLASH stall , not it slips till that speed , a 2800 rated converter in a stock 250 would maybe stall 22-2400, add any cam and the stall will go down from a lack of low end ( aftermarket cam moves the operating range up ) I have a 10 inch Pinto Converter it flashes to a bit over 3000 with the mild 351w now in the car , with the 250 it was 2800 at best , an equiv aftermarket converte would be a 3500 unit , The standard unit of Flash is with a STOCK 350 Chevy , a 350ft lb of torque , that is MUCH more torqu than any normaly asperated combo makes , Ive been Drag Racing since the late 70's , I never post anything I havent done myself , nuff said
No argument over the stall definitions, as often I6's use our loose C4 V8 stall converters and then end up needing a looser one. Down here on our in-lines, we generally don't go above the stock 2350 option, or 2500 rpm. I'm sure any 250 can take a 2800 converter and make it work fine, but unless you've done the cam checks, then I'd not go looser due to heat buildup and look at the whole diff, t/.c shift pacakge.
My first 295 degree Ford was in 1988 with a dynoed 285 rear wheel hp ASCAR 351 block and 2v closed chamber 4-bbl XY Falcon, 750 cfm 3310 carb. Manual 4-speed, 2.92:1 gears.
My first 295 degree hydraulic cammed Chev was in 1994 with my next door neighbours 1963 Chev with stock THM 350, stock stall, 750 cfm 3310 carb. 265 rear wheel up before upgrades,and a let down on the street after the cam and carb were done just because of the stock stall ratio. And it had stall converter issuescausing drivabilty problems.
I'm adamant Mike C's issues are cam related, not stall related. This first port of call is to check the cam. Then, if that yields notheing, then upgrade to looser convrter as recomended by the supplier.
I have not made, and do not havre any arument over anyones credentials here. People who have been doing the business shopuld be listened too. Others have been there and done that more than I have. I've just been around Ford sixes since I was O years old, and 144's to 250's for all time. Recent info on cam degree settings, and going back over the result on blowing up my mates 1986 EFI 4.1 engine back in 2002, spitting a rod, holeing the block and breaking the camshaft into two pieces tell me to look at heck of a lot closer into the cam timing.
I've know for years the cam timing on Ford sixes was critical, but after seeing how little clearance there is in a Ford 250 cylinder block when the cam is degreed off the stock amount would make me darn sure I'd not touch a converter change untill I'd done the basics.
And that's a flip flop from my origional postion on T/C's. It's based on what I've learned here, and what I've broken first hand.
My first 295 degree Ford was in 1988 with a dynoed 285 rear wheel hp ASCAR 351 block and 2v closed chamber 4-bbl XY Falcon, 750 cfm 3310 carb. Manual 4-speed, 2.92:1 gears.
My first 295 degree hydraulic cammed Chev was in 1994 with my next door neighbours 1963 Chev with stock THM 350, stock stall, 750 cfm 3310 carb. 265 rear wheel up before upgrades,and a let down on the street after the cam and carb were done just because of the stock stall ratio. And it had stall converter issuescausing drivabilty problems.
I'm adamant Mike C's issues are cam related, not stall related. This first port of call is to check the cam. Then, if that yields notheing, then upgrade to looser convrter as recomended by the supplier.
I have not made, and do not havre any arument over anyones credentials here. People who have been doing the business shopuld be listened too. Others have been there and done that more than I have. I've just been around Ford sixes since I was O years old, and 144's to 250's for all time. Recent info on cam degree settings, and going back over the result on blowing up my mates 1986 EFI 4.1 engine back in 2002, spitting a rod, holeing the block and breaking the camshaft into two pieces tell me to look at heck of a lot closer into the cam timing.
I've know for years the cam timing on Ford sixes was critical, but after seeing how little clearance there is in a Ford 250 cylinder block when the cam is degreed off the stock amount would make me darn sure I'd not touch a converter change untill I'd done the basics.
And that's a flip flop from my origional postion on T/C's. It's based on what I've learned here, and what I've broken first hand.
One more thing , having a converter that ( will do) is not the same as having one that will allow the most out of a combo , short of a all out race setup , but thats not what I'm saying , my saying how long at it was not a copetition thing just stating I am not a Newbee , Ive seen your posts and know your not as well , I have done ( Recurved and Refurbished Distributors for customers in Australia) , no New Zealand yet , Cheers
Well, it's lovely to get all theoretical and mathematical. However, if you contact Phoenix transmissions and tell them your deal, they'll hooK you up with a TC for $250 or so. For mine they grafted a 4-cyl bowl to the TC I sent them on the premise that I make more torque. He seemed pretty confident about it, especially as regards the idle issues. Beyond that, without a lot of dyno work and some $$ you are not going to get the "perfect TC," just a better one. Of course, my car has been on stands since January getting a major rust overhaul, so we shall see...
michael_cini
Well-known member
hey! good to hear from you. i replied to your post on tffn and sent you a pm, but hadn't heard back from you. but you answered my question with your reply here. i wanted to know how your car runs now. let me know when you run it. Phoenix transmissions? The one in Weatherford, TX?
FalconSedanDelivery suggested that I get a 3000 stall like this one here. He says that in actuality it will end up around 2500.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G2707-10/
FalconSedanDelivery suggested that I get a 3000 stall like this one here. He says that in actuality it will end up around 2500.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G2707-10/
falcon fanatic":1nnw3x8x said: