Camshaft Degree Confirmation

Richard, if you are going to at least a 3.50 diff. then the 3 degree advance is what you need. With that much gear youre low end will be covered by gear ratios.

When you button up the camshaft bolt for the last time remember to use red loctite on that bolt.

Good job done & thanks to Mike for checking your progress.

How much was the camshaft off when you degreed it in? Bill

Bill, when I initially started before anything I found the LC to be @ 98.5* I then changed it and got it to 88*, skipped a tooth on the chain when installing it...lol... then fixed it to 106.5-105*, and just reconfirmed it with mike that it is indeed 105*.

I will pull it back off and aim for the 107*, I want this done right and "perfect"

I was doing it right all along I'm glad, so I understand how to set the LC but don't understand the degree @ intake opening @ .050, maybe in the future a with a different car I will try to understand (too bad I don't have a spare engine to play with)

so a nice round for everyone.

Thanks alot guys, you rock!
Richard

I don't know how, but I got 105.5* I'm stopping there...

I tried the 107* but kept getting 108, so I put it back and it's checking 105.5*... I'll check in the morning before I start bolting everything on.

This has seriously been the most precise measureing I have done since high school... (gosh I miss those chemestry and physic's classes)

since high school
machine shop wuz fun! (lotta hash pipes made ). But some a the same stuff U just went thru. Wish I had physics/chem. but couldn't do the math...

Enjoy the "new engine". U deserve it!
:wow:

SHE LIVES!!!!

well spent all day getting it back together, added and topped off fluids, installed my prepared hid lights and tuned her up.

The holley 350 I got is obiously too rich for her own good. I took her for a spin with my cousin and I could tell there was way more power than before, it accelerates smoother and it's just a different beast.

well later I went for a solo test drive and WOW I'm going to have a hard time not getting in trouble, the different is night and day (what sad is this is based on the run with my p-brake on ),
I wish I did this in the first place. the location of the cam is confirmed again this morning 106*, found the lifter @ .050's to be on 61* and 151* (212 / 2 = 106) then moved the needle, dial guage and degree wheel and had my cousin find true tdc, then dial in the gauge for max lift, then went and found 106* (61 and 151) (I didn't have him tell me any numbers so I didn't know until his final was calulated) I'm positive with 2 people finding the same number with moved paramerters that I'm siting on 106*. it was well worth the try and patience that it took to get this dialed in.

I would like to try a leaner set of jets, I'll pick some up at checker monday, tomorrow I'm resting, I'm done working on my car for a while, I'm just glad it's back on the road.

timing is set at 15* and it idles real nice with a healthy 800rpm with the AC on, and 1000 off. although I think it's lower cause my tach gauge reads 5000rpm vs 4200rpm on the dyno at the same time.

well that's all my ranting for tonight, thanks guy's enjoy your weekend.

Richard, reset the float level & try a 59 main jet. That will get you real close. Bill

some converstion that belongs over here... it's a good disscusion IMO.

relating to frankenstangs posts about the camshaft degree here

'If you found intake center line to be 106 and lobe seperation angle for your cam is 110, then would'nt that seem to indicate there is already 4* advance ground into the cam?

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No, it does not indicated there is a 4* already advanced into the cam. it shows the crankshaft key to be inaccurate, I think to get the cam shaft to be 0* advanced it would be sitting on -8 on the key.

If so, would retarding the crank gear to a position of -4 negate the advance already ground into the cam?' Just a question for the forum.

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turning the crank key clockwise advances, counter clockwise retards, now the -4 postion on the crank gear does not mean the camshaft is set 4* retarded, in fact, it has no relation to the exact postion of the camshaft in any kind of calculation. (think of the positions as letters, not numbers)

...and asking this question as much of/for the others reading along...not trying to confuse you, or put you on the spot
MPGmustang wrote:straight up 0* on the cam. for me mine measured 102.25* LC

I see now your intake centerline came out as above not 106 or 110 as expected (can't remember if CS cams are have advance ground in). So your -4 retarding is compensating for that...I think I'm following now...I shouldn't try working while reading along about cams at the same time. Again...no offense intended...My bad

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I have miss stated my intent/findings, it should have read
"when degree'd to postion 0 on the crank key, the cam intake LC was set at 102.25* from TDC, indicating 7.75* advance"
my lobe centers are in fact 110* apart, I have confirmed the intake duration at .050 lift I have my cam that I purchased (i did not confirm the exhaust as I didn't think of it at the time)

so at 0* i have tdc, if I installed the cam to be straight up the peak lift of the intake lobe would be @ 110*, but I want the peak lift to occur 4* advanced (or sooner) so I set to 106* by try'n different crank key positions.

No offence taken, nor do I mean offence, I learned all this this week, I'm also try'n to explain that the cam is correct with no imperfections, the dual roller timing chain set is wrong that has the problem of being misleading/inaccurate.

Richard

MPGmustang":2qrzjh0h said:

No offence taken, nor do I mean offence, I learned all this this week

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Richard, no worries...I'd agree this is a good discussion and heck, after all isn't that what this place is all about.

MPGmustang":2qrzjh0h said:

now the -4 postion on the crank gear does not mean the camshaft is set 4* retarded, in fact, it has no relation to the exact postion of the camshaft in any kind of calculation. (think of the positions as letters, not numbers)

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Here is where I think our ideas may be mixed up, but not necessarily different...maybe it's just different perspective, cause I'd differ with the way you phrase it above. Think of it this way. If you installed the cam straight up (which I now realize clay smith's are ground that way), and you wanted to advance it 4*...as I understand it you'd be moving the cam indpendent of the crank, changing the 'event timing' for all valves relative to piston stroke/position.

Maybe you were just saying it has no relevance in your situation, since you've determined your double roller crank gear is wrong....but as I understand it, when advancing or retarding the cam that is exactly what you are trying to do, change timing of valve events as measured in crank degrees (relative to crank).

That's why I say if you have a 110 LSA cam (or LCA as referred to on CI site...personally "lobe center angle" is a little to close to "intake centerline" to easily confuse me) with no advance ground in, and you advanced the cam 4* or 'started with the cam already advanced 4 degrees' Then you would expect to see an intake centerline (max lift) of 106 and an exhaust centerline of 114 and not 110 (ie max lift occuring at different times or positions on relative to the crank).

So I'm not sure we're even saying different things, and if one of the other folks here can correct or clarify anything I've said...please feel free...cause I'm just trying to understand it a little better myself, and sorry, didn't mean to crowd your 'more power' thread...cause you're right I should have posted those questions/musings here...more on topic.
And when it's all said and done, all that matters is you've got yours correct and running right now and that's the most important thing...congrats

It pays to be patient.... good job.

Can't wait to see the dyno numbers now. Wonder if/how it will change the carb requirements?

This seems to be a huge problem. These so call engine builders keep saying they've degreed the cam, when in fact, they haven't. I have another customer going through the same thing right now. I keep telling him it sounds like his cam timing is off, even tho his shop keeps saying they degreed it. He finally decided to take my advise and take it to a different shop. Once he told the original builder what he was doing, they finally admitted they didn't degree it. SAD....... :nono:

I have degreed many cams in many different engines and I would never recomend advancing or retarding any cam without using a degree wheel. There are too many variables. I would recomend degreeing all cams, but without a degree wheel, put it straight up and run it.

Glad you got it dialed in. Sounds like you will see some benefits.

Robert, I think I understand you now, but your other posts to me just didn't add up in my mind, even now they still don't... but your last post I followed and I agree

Frankenstang":k1jf49ga said:

Maybe you were just saying it has no relevance in your situation, since you've determined your double roller crank gear is wrong....but as I understand it, when advancing or retarding the cam that is exactly what you are trying to do, change timing of valve events as measured in crank degrees (relative to crank).

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correct, the change of the crank gear does affect the cam position, I said before the crank gear is "inaccuratly accurate" the keys' are spaced 2* apart, but the numbers do not coorelate to perfect cam postion. I like to think of the positons on the crank gear as letters, and each letter is "roughly" 2* apart, this way you are not given a starting postion to assume the cam is degree'd dead on by just putting it at 0. because we all know what happens when one will assume (like the shop that put this together)

Mike, I want to see them #'s too, but this holley 350 is way too rich, maybe those autolites will be perfect now...
Stubby, I already do!

Just some food for thought on degreeing cams.

1. The keyway should be indexed with the #1 crankshaft throw.

2. The pins are offset in most stock type pistons, this means that the crankshaft throw and keyway isn't actually straight up when the piston is at TDC. However, if you run forged pistons without offset pins, it might be. Same goes for a block with the cylinders offset from the crankshaft centerline.

3.The camshaft dowel pin should be indexed to a certain place. Cam grinders have the ability to grind the cam anywhere they want. Some will grind it so it should be where they want it when it's installed "Straight up".

4. The crank gear should be indexed so that "0" is straight up with no advance or retard. Then, the extra keyways should be indexed at + or - a certain amount.

5. The cam gear dowel hole should be indexed a certain place so the cam will be accurately indexed.

6. The crankshaft turns 2 degrees for every one degree of camshaft rotation.

7. Each revolution is devided into 360 degrees. 1 degree makes a difference. All of the steps 1 through 5 are subject to production tolerances.

Any one, or all of the guys who performed steps 1 through 5 could have a bad day, or simply not care about the little stuff. It's bad enough to depend on one man, but to depend on that many men for that many things. I think I will double check my stuff with a degree wheel. If I was building for a guy that might want to experiment with changing his cam timing, while degreeing the cam, I would also degree it in each different keyway and record the numbers so he would have the correct info when changing it.

This is compounded on some engines when Ford decided to retard the cams and they achieved this with the timing sets. I've seen guys buil 460 fords that were dogs. A simple cam timing problem of major proportions.

Gary, great points, thats why i hate the intake centerline process.
I like the actual events that most camshaft grinders list on their cam cards @ .050" as a double check. Bill

The specs @ .050 are more accurate,but are also more difficult to get to repete. The centerline is easier for most and way closer than just throwing it together.

When you get into asymmetrical lobes, it is alot better. But that is a story for another day.

The main thing is to make sure it's not in left field. You will need a dyno to see a 2 degree difference in most cases. MPGmustang is going to show us what happens when it's dead center as opposed to left field. 8)

Was this a cam gear - chain set from Classic Inlines?

AzCoupe":3cue6ihj said:

It pays to be patient.... good job.

Can't wait to see the dyno numbers now. Wonder if/how it will change the carb requirements?

This seems to be a huge problem. These so call engine builders keep saying they've degreed the cam, when in fact, they haven't. I have another customer going through the same thing right now. I keep telling him it sounds like his cam timing is off, even tho his shop keeps saying they degreed it. He finally decided to take my advise and take it to a different shop. Once he told the original builder what he was doing, they finally admitted they didn't degree it. SAD....... :nono:

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Mike, i have run the same carb on the same engine, but the camshaft was the only part different.
The different cams produced different vacuum levels & also required different jetting, not only the main jets but the PVRC oriffice under the power valve.
This can only be checked with a wideband such as an innovate.
The average guy would never know the difference except for drivability,power & fuel miliage.
If you don't use a wideband A/F tester to get a baseline & then race it or dynotest it, you are just guessing without the aid of modern electronics. Bill

Personally, I hope I'm wrangling of some of this info...at least I 'think' I'm following stubby's and bill's thoughts (ie where error can be introduced)...and don't want to distract from MPG's thread, but actually hoping some of this add's to it....

But here may be a few 'dumb' questions for those like myself w/o any great deal of engine building experience...

1. So in abscence of an adjustable timing set (or before the days of one)...how would someone make small adjustments in the 'phasing' or timing of valve events if they found it not ideal...like MPG's....could you use offset keys in the crank, something like these?


Affecting the cam something like this (although this is on the cam)...
http://www.woodcarbs.com/Cam%20Rotation.pdf

2. Is that a stop gap, or is that how it's done?

3. In particular what type/method would you use for a 200 (w/o an adjustable timing set), given it's indexed with a dowel, to get the phase/timing you want? Is there such a thing as an indexed dowel so this could be done at the cam? Would you ever re-index the cam gear itself? (pic of stock 200 timing set for reference)

The other thing I for one am having a little trouble getting my head around is how you change indexes on an "adjustable set" (realizing you'll relocate the position of the crank gear in a different slot), because those slots would seem to adjust timing by a tooth or more, which as I understand one tooth can be 8*+/- of adjustment or more? Not sure if I'm just way off on how the small adjustments are made. Thanks

Again, not trying to distract from MPG's thread...hopefully just add to it...and particularly interested in how one commonly makes adjustment in valve timing w/o an adjustable timing set.

MPGmustang":277yc9fy said:

Mike, I want to see them #'s too, but this holley 350 is way too rich.

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Say Richard...just curious as to how you can tell you are too rich? Plugs or some other way?

wsa111":uitlxyop said:

Richard, reset the float level & try a 59 main jet. That will get you real close. Bill

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I believe I was running a 58 or 59 jet when I had the 350 Holley on my motor and that was just about right...