Camshaft Degree Confirmation

Frankenstang, there are several ways to change it, some better than others. I wouldn't do it at the cam because there is one bolt attaching it, and it can be a problem area.

The crank gear adjustment is from different keyways. Picture a gear with the key aligned with a tooth on the gear. Stamp a zero on that key and tooth.
Now pick another tooth and cut a keyway that is offset +X degrees and mark that keyway and tooth as +X.
Each keyway has a coresponding tooth, and the tooth will be indexed X degrees to adv or ret the cam.

Hope this clears it up some.

Crosley, don't hold it against Mike or the gear manufacturer. They all suffer from inaccuracies. Cloyes is one of the best and theirs was the first I had problems with! It's just something you learn to accept, and double check!

Aside from all of the different areas for inaccuracies, think how far you have to tear into it the second time. When you are building the engine, you are as close as you are gonna get, you might as well do it!
 
There's nothing wrong with the timing set, he just has the crank gear installed on the wrong key-way. I didn't want to say anything earlier, as I didn't want to confuse him anymore than he already was. My only concern was to make sure he got the cam degree'd properly, which he did.

Think about it.... with seven key-ways (-6,-4, -2, 0, +2, +4, +6), you can install the crank gear anywhere you want to. All he'd have to do now, is remove the timing chain and gears, turn the crank gear to the corresponding number (+4), then reinstall the timing chain and gears (making sure not to rotate the crank or camshaft while he was doing it). It's the same thing as relocating the #1 cylinder on distributor cap. You can put the #1 plug wire anywhere you want to, just as long as the rotor is pointing to the same location when the motor is at TDC. You guys need to put your thinking caps on..... ;)

Richard, next time we go to the dyno shop, I'll bring along a timing set and show you what I'm saying.
 
Stubby":2il57evq said:
Frankenstang, there are several ways to change it, some better than others. I wouldn't do it at the cam because there is one bolt attaching it, and it can be a problem area.

The crank gear adjustment is from different keyways. Picture a gear with the key aligned with a tooth on the gear. Stamp a zero on that key and tooth.
Now pick another tooth and cut a keyway that is offset +X degrees and mark that keyway and tooth as +X.
Each keyway has a coresponding tooth, and the tooth will be indexed X degrees to adv or ret the cam.
Click to expand...

Many thanks stubby!...much clearer now that you put it in the 'keyway indexed to a tooth' terms, that is a big help. Now I can see how the keyway would be aligned 'slightly' different relative to a single tooth...just wasn't clicking before :oops: still learning about these cams.

I look forward to seeing your dyno results as well MPG...realize there will be some effect from getting the cam right, it will still be interesting to see totals compared to 200cfm 1v. Thanks for sharing your story.

EDIT:
AZCoupe":2il57evq said:
There's nothing wrong with the timing set, he just has the crank gear installed on the wrong keyway...You guys need to put your thinking caps on.....
Click to expand...

I figured it might be due to a starting point/key selection, but I wasn't going to say diddly...I can't fit my thinking cap on over my dunce one on this subject :rolflmao:
 
:rolflmao: IT'S ALL GOOD.

Bottom line, this has been a great topic, with a lot of guys learning the importance of degreeing the cam properly.

:beer: :beer: :beer:
 
I hope I'm not confused, but I have to agree, it's done and degree'd...

Wish I took more measurements now in each position and how that timing would relate compared when I swap only the key.. if only I had a spare engine to tinker with and a timing chain set...
 
I've been in the automotive repair field for 4 decades. Not looking to place blame , looking for where the problem is located at on this one. Mike explained it, thanks.

I put my Clay Smith camshaft at 2* advance and a quick check indicated it was accurate

I work for Hughes Performance here in Phoenix. We manufacture many transmission parts. I can tell stories of inaccuracies of parts built from blue prints. Stuff happens
 
OK, I am the other customer Mike was mentioning in a previous post. Well, I have had this to 3 shops and nobody will degree it for me. It doesnt run worth a crap. I have been into chevy 6's forever, so this is my first ford - actually its our high school son's car.

I need a little advice. I am going to tackle this degreeing thing myself. Its a 200 cu in with a 2bbl conversion on a 250 head. 300 miles on the rebuild, and its in the car. Can I get everything off the front of the engine to check this and adjust the cam without taking it out?? I am sick of the tun around and expense I have had with this car that I am starting to hate the car. So i want to do it right and get it over with.

Any videos on doing it on an already assembled engine?? HELP!!

Tom
 
dentist57":26mjdul8 said:
OK, I am the other customer Mike was mentioning in a previous post. Well, I have had this to 3 shops and nobody will degree it for me. It doesnt run worth a crap. I have been into chevy 6's forever, so this is my first ford - actually its our high school son's car.
I need a little advice. I am going to tackle this degreeing thing myself. Its a 200 cu in with a 2bbl conversion on a 250 head. 300 miles on the rebuild, and its in the car. Can I get everything off the front of the engine to check this and adjust the cam without taking it out?? I am sick of the tun around and expense I have had with this car that I am starting to hate the car. So i want to do it right and get it over with.
Any videos on doing it on an already assembled engine?? HELP!!
Tom
Click to expand...

Hi Tom!
And welcome to the forum and site! Lotta good guys here, saved me money AND time.
Sorry for yer frustration! Got another vehicle U can go to till the frustration subsides. That way come back clear headed? Myself? - gotta take lotta breaks :banghead:
 
Nope no second car. that is a lot of the problem. Its our sons Mustang and he goes to boarding school and its his only ride. So, it looks like time passed us by on this one.
 
Hey Tom,
I did the camshaft degree inside my engine bay, never took it out, I did have the convience of having the head off while I degree'd the camshaft. you can do it with thehead on, but you'll have to take off alot of the front end.

is the engine in or out of the car?

bubba22349":13038zkn said:
200 try this one out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj-GA494 ... re=related
Click to expand...

here is a great video of degree'n the camshaft. it confirmed I was doing it right. some might not like this way, but it will get you very close to your target. and it is IMO the easiest to follow/repeat for those that are learning.
 
I'd agree with MPG...doing it with the head off is best. I believe you can do it with the head on, but introduces the chance of too much variation/error, and when you're wanting to measure within a few degrees that could cause problems. Here is a vid I found on youtube doing it with the head on (no details on exactly where/how he sets his dial indicators)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la6-EgnCOl4

MPG just went through degreeing his cam correctly, after a builder did it wrong, so he can tell you how much difference it makes :nod: Good luck!

EDIT: He is obviously using 'lobe center' method vs 'measuring actual valve events', and I would guess his dial indicator is sitting on the push rod side rocker...but have read that this method is not as accurate as head off.
 
OK, MPG 3 questions for you: how long did it take you? Is it quicker to do with the head off too? I have never done this before. I have worked on a ton of chevy 235's but never this Ford stuff. Can a rookie do it??
 
A fourth question for you MPG: did it change the performance of your engine much? It looks like we picked the same cam
 
dentist57":9mqvraiy said:
how long did it take you?
Click to expand...
IMO too long... but once I got everything out of the way degree'n the cam is probably as long as that video... Every time I set the crank key, took 5-10 mins to find dtc, recalc where the lobe center was. the 'key point' is to get everything out of your way.

I took out/off:
  • grill (you can keep the bumper and vailence on IF you can work around/over them... but I had them off)
  • radiator
  • condensor (I just layed it forward on the ground and turned it under the car, never disconected it...)
  • water pump (my degree wheel would not have fit if it was still on
  • timing chain cover (I first confirmed where the lobe sent was before I took it off, as I didn't want to break the seal but I needed to)
  • cylinder head (this depends, if you have a 'cup' on the top of the push rod no use that push rod with the head on and rockers off, I have the cup on the rockers so it was easier for me to do it with the head off. maybe someone here can share a pic of what I mean)
After I degree'd the cam, the car went back together in less than 5 hours. total time for my car to be down due to head and waiting on camshaft degree kit and everything else I forgot, hmm about 3-4 weeks, but I got the 2 bbl direct mount so IMO it went by fast. If I only needed to degree the cam like you, I could do it in 1 day or less.
dentist57":9mqvraiy said:
Is it quicker to do with the head off too?
Click to expand...
IMO, no, you can do the same with a cup type push rod as the extension on the dial indicator. AS LONG AS you are reading the direct lift off the lifter, not the valve. again maybe others can share some more insight on what I mean... also you ahve to make sure the dial indicator is straight up and down, no leaning
dentist57":9mqvraiy said:
I have worked on a ton of chevy 235's but never this Ford stuff. Can a rookie do it??
Click to expand...
by working on chevy's you already have more experience than I do, I have never even degree'd the cam before, nor have I ever looked at my timing gears before this project... I think you already know more than I do going into this... I learned it all from doing it, you'll look back after it's done and think 'that's it!!' with a little disappointment.
dentist57":9mqvraiy said:
A fourth question for you MPG: did it change the performance of your engine much? It looks like we picked the same cam
Click to expand...
before it would run rough, sounded like it was thumping on low idle, then I could only opperate the engine from 1700rpm to 5000rpm with confidence, and even then it wasn't as smooth as it is now. I am able to keep speed without lug or ugly sounds form the engine @ 35mph at 1200rpm!! it's a first ever with this new engine and accelerating I have hit 6000 while thinking I was at 3000rpm the smoothness is worlds different, although I only drove it for 2 days before the ring gear and tranny crapped out on me. so I have been down with my only car for 9 weeks (using my dads 72 dart w/o AC in 110+ heat, at least I can get to work on time)... I miss my car but don't have the funds to finsh it as soon as I would like.

sorry for the lengthy post. enjoy and hope I helped
 
Just throwing out this 'valve event method' video to show the other approach...not to confuse, but I think you can see why some prefer this to 'lobe center' method (because the center of a lobe is not as precise). Anyway...

It's a quick and concise vid...you might notice his dial meter moves off .050 when he first starts (a tipoff that he just got through doing this routine before he does it again for the video). You can also note he already used his marker on the dial (little black tick mark) to locate max lift, but to me this is a good, quick example of the 'valve event' measures at .050 (.050 after valve opens and before valve closes) AFAIK these measures are on most cam cards with some difference in convention of how it's listed. He'd doing it on exhaust valve but same process for intake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=cdpHkQZIJHU
Again, just thought I'd share cause it's a good demonstration (aka makes it look easy) of 'valve event method' after TDC has been verified. Good luck!

EDIT: note he does "back it up at one point " which is frowned upon"...suppose to move in one direction as crank normally turns to avoid time chain slack affecting readings
 
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