Camshaft Degree Confirmation

okay so I got my degree kit... finally can start getting the engine back together.
but before I do I figured I would degree the camshaft just in case... better be safe than sorry...

I decided to use the peak lift method as it was easier to understand...

I found peak lift, set the indicator to 0, backed up to .100 then came back to peak lift to determine it's accurate.
then backed up .150 and went forward (normal engine rotational direction) and came to .050 before peak lift. degree read 53*
then went forward past peak lift and to .050 after peak lift, the degree read 143*

53+143=196
196/2= 88*????

IIRC (if i read correctly) it should be closer to my 110* lobe separation, 88* is what I got for Peak intak lift, did I do something I should not have? please help! am I suppose to repeat for exhaust?

The engine shop said they degree'd it 4* advance... I think I'm going to have to go in and change the key on the camshaft. this is not going to be a fun process...

my cam is Clay Smith Camshaft, 264 int 274 exh, 110* lobe separation, .450 lift,

any insight that I can do to determine my findings are correct would be very aprreciated...

Thanks guy's you're the best

A google search on this:

Google":2lu42eo6 said:

A cam ground with a 108 lobe separation and advanced 4 degrees will have a intake centerline of 104 and exhaust centerline of 112. ...

Click to expand...

So my intake center line is just flat out off, 88* is a very poor excuse... I have tripple checked my findings, and I sure that I have the right degree and numbers. but did I do it right is the real question...

As I have ran this engine for 8 months, I'm cautious (and hope) that I might be wrong.

Always keep rotating the crankshaft in the direction it rotates(clockwise), never back it up. Reconfirm you have found absolute TDC using either a piston stop or indicator. Start with the lifter on the heel of the cams intake lobe and make sure the indicator is zeroed from that reference point. make sure indictaor is in the same plane and straight with the pushrod(not crooked). Rotate the engine(clockwise) thru several complete valve opening and closing cycles to confirm the zero of the indictaor and also to confirm lobe lift vs. cam card. Once you have returned to zero, slowly rotate the crank(clockwise) and stop @ .050 lobe lift(as the lobe begins to rise) compare with the cam card intake opening #'s. Continue slowly rotating(clockwise) until you reach the .050 before max lobe lift reading(STOP). Record this reading. Continue slowly past max lobe lift until the indicator is on the downside of the lobe by .050(STOP). Record this reading. Add the 2 readings together and divide by 2 and this will be your intake centerline, using the centerline method.

okay, I rotate the way the engine runs, always...

I find max lift set dial to 0
I turn the engine 5 times, confirming every time the max lift is to 0*

I count the number of turns on dial so I can stop at .050 before max lift, this number is either
307 or 53
then I rotate the engine past max lift, to .050 after max lift, the number is either
216 or 144

I have repeated process 4 times now....

I have determined TDC 8 times before moving on to the cam, I found peak lift on the piston then went 050 before and 050 past, adjusted to correct and now I'm positive I'm on TDC...

I have used this video to confirm I'm following the instructions,
YouTube Video on Degree'n CamShaft

my math is now corrected... lol

53 + 144 =197
197/2= 98.5*
not near enough to 106*

the exhaust reads as following
before
168 or 192
75 or 285

168+75=243
243/2=121.5

now, 98.5+121.5=220
220/2=110* (MY CENTER LINE )

so I want my cam to be 106*, currently it is 11.5* advanced...

I need to RETARD MY CAM!!! dang! my engine is too smart for itself...

I have confirmed my numbers, and they check out, my previous math was a bit off...

Are you taking your maximum intake lobe lift at the lifter on #1 cylinder using a dial indicator???

There should be no tension on the intake pushrod other than that of the dial indicator. The small tension of the dial indicator will not depress the lifter plunger if its a juice lifter.

I have degreed many claysmith cams & 99% are ground straight up. Then you will have to advance it as needed.

They are always on the money. I can't say that for Erson cams.

Show us a picture of how you are taking the #1 intake lifter movement.

Once you have the degree wheel at 0 for tdc, then move onto the camshaft. You do not go back to the piston movement.

Take a look at the degree wheel & it might help you. This is the wheel that i use. Bill

MPGmustang":33vot1nm said:

I have used this video to confirm I'm following the instructions,
YouTube Video on Degree'n CamShaft

Click to expand...

The problem with doing it with this method of zeroing on top of the lobe is that it doesn't allow you to check other specs that are equally as important as the LSA as you are going thru the process. If you zero on the heel of the cam lobe(as you should) you can also use the @.020 or @.050 opening events to double check your intake centerline readings. If you are off by 3 or 4 degrees at the very begining, you also should be off on the lobe center the same amount. You would have avoided a lot of confusion and doubt.

I took the easiest way for me to understand how to degree the camshaft, I'm a not very sure on what I'm actually doing and the fact that I got what I got shows some accuracy... and teh order of events are really TDC (I even checked my Harmonic balancer) /intake/intake/exhaust/exhaust/intake/exhaust/exhaust/intake, and those numbers came up EVERY time, my math didn't till i used a calc... lol

the about the method your talking about CNC, I havn't found a video of it, I'm more of a visual learner. show me and I can do it, Write it down and it looks like chicken scratch...

200 try this one out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj-GA494 ... re=related

bubba22349":3adwduab said:

200 try this one out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj-GA494 ... re=related

Click to expand...

Bubba, great video especially since its on the 200 six.

You are not done yet. While you have the dial indicator in place, find the lowest point on the camshaft base circle, zero the dial indicator, rotate the engine so the lifter rises .050" & see if the intake opening you get on the degree wheel jive with the cam card specs which clay smith cams does not provide, keep rotating & see if the intake closing is whats on the cam card again at .050" before the lifter goes down on the base circle. I always do this to see if the camshaft readings agree with the cam card, but in this case clay smith does not supply this info.
If you want to move over to the #1 exhaust & check there events.
Doing this is the true test if the camshaft agrees whats on the cam card & prevents intake l/c error.
Clay Smith does not put the events & .050" on their cam cards they just list the advertised duration.
I have the degrees @ .050", but i will have to find them. Bill

MPGmustang":1n94adcj said:

I took the easiest way for me to understand how to degree the camshaft, I'm a not very sure on what I'm actually doing and the fact that I got what I got shows some accuracy... and teh order of events are really TDC (I even checked my Harmonic balancer) /intake/intake/exhaust/exhaust/intake/exhaust/exhaust/intake, and those numbers came up EVERY time, my math didn't till i used a calc... lol

the about the method your talking about CNC, I havn't found a video of it, I'm more of a visual learner. show me and I can do it, Write it down and it looks like chicken scratch...

Click to expand...

Glad you got it figured out finally. This method im describing is the same as what you did, it just starts you at the begining instead of halfway thru it.

You are not done yet. While you have the dial indicator in place, find the lowest point on the camshaft base circle, zero the dial indicator,
CHECK
rotate the engine so the lifter rises .050" & see if the intake opening you get on the degree wheel
CHECK (0* @ .050 LIFT)
jive with the cam card specs,
NOPE... MAYBE I DON'T KNOW HOW TO READ THE CAM CARD... cam
keep rotating & see if the intake closing
CHECK... (212* @ .050 LIFT)
is whats on the cam card
NOPE... BUT 212 IS ON THE CARD??
If you want to move over to the #1 exhaust & check there events.
(I think I'm doing this wrong, maybe I should make sure I'm doing it right on the intake before I move anything)

I don't mean the caps as a reaised voice, just my voice relating to wsa111's instructions...

I have changed the position of the cam, the Lobe centerline sits happily @ 106* (60+152=212/2=106) give or take .5* for human error

before i start putting this back together I want to make sure it's EXACTLY where it needs to be. oh and that it agree's with the cam card, make sure I got my cam...

Thanks guy's you're a HUGE help, if you were near by I'd get you all some good

Richard, give me a call tomorrow and I'll come over and help you out. You need to be sure it's right.... this time.

That explains all the crud Elmo (head porter) found in the intake runners, and confirms what I thought all along. I called Elmo and told him what you found.... he just chuckled. These production engine shops don't have a clue.... Their a bunch of idiots, that think they're engine builders. Of course, we already knew that.

I'm really happy you decided to take the time to check it. It will pay off big time when you get it back together. I think you'll be a lot happier with the results.

Yeah Mike you were right, and so was Elmo, I'm very glad he mentioned to check the cam, it has proven insightful.
here's some for Mike and Elmo

Mike I'm planning to complete the degree'n friday after noon, I need to get this back together quickly.

Thanks again.

Richard, on clay smiths cam card the valve events are with the camshaft ground at 110 L/C.

My bad cause you said you are going to advance it 4 degrees.

To make this easy as possible since you are 4 degrees advanced the intake opening is now 26 degrees & intake close is 58 degrees. The exhaust is now 71 degrees opening & 23 degrees closed.

The cam card @ 110 L/C camshaft reads I 22/62 E 71/23. Advance it 4 degrees to 106 intake L/C
& your events will be I 26/58 E 71/23
This is the advertised duration not the duration @ .050" lift.

Have Mike recheck your work, but the events @ 106 should be very close to the above.Bill

okay, so How do I determine open and close, I don't doubt the cam, nor the manufacture, but I have done 2 readings....

.050 before and after max lobe lift, average comes to 106*
.050 valve open and valve close, average comes to 106*

for the intake, how do I find the 26*? and find the 58*, to me I just don't understand how to measure it.

I'm looking for a video now, but if you find one let me know...
(BTW I have the head off, I'm going off the lifter lift)

Richard, read my previous posts, i am looking for the specs @ .050" for your cam.

The cam card lists the specs at advertised duration, but not at .050"

Sorry to confuse you. I know i have the specs for the 274 cam, but not sure about the 264 intake at .050"

I will try to find them shortly, this is just a double check to see if the intake L/C is correct.

Sorry all i have are the events @ .050" for the 274-112 camshaft.

I don't want to give them to you them cause this will be more confusing.

Either Mike has them or will have to call George at clay smith cams for the events at .050"

I hate the intake L/c method of degreeing cause it is just a reference point & there is room for error.

Most other camshaft grinders provide the events @ .050" as a double check.

One supplier of camshafts gives you the lift of the intake lobe at TDC & thats where you set it, simple.

Just have Mike verify the 106 degree intake L/C & you will be close. Bill

wsa111":1iscw1gi said:

i am looking for the specs @ .050" for your cam. The cam card lists the specs at advertised duration, but not at .050"

Click to expand...

???
the cam is 264/274 110* and .450 lift (with 1.5 rocker ratio)
the duration @ .050 is 212/224, LC are still 110*....

I don't understand, I'm very confused...

well Mike came over, confirmed true tdc, and measured 59* and 151* showing its lobe center is @ 105*

thanks guys I appreciate all ur help

Richard, just my personal opinion, but with a T-5 trans & a 3.25 rear i would advance it only 2 degrees. that would give you a 107 intake L/C. This would give you a little more top end & will use the extra carburetion provided by a direct mount. That would leave you with 3 degrees advance. Bill

Bill,
I hear yeah on where it should be, but I just struck gold on the rear end, I'm picking up an 8 inch 4 lug tonight, so rear ratio is in consideration now... honestly been thinking about 3.55 gears lately, maybe 3.8 gears but only time will tell. I'll get a dyno on it first and then go deside what rear ratio I need.

advancing 'should' give the nice bottom end that I'm looking for. I think 105* is good for my street build application. Now if your certian I should change the timing to make it 107-106* I can/will, I need to get my car back together and only have this weekend to be on the road, in the end I want a reliable engine with reliable fun power
(maybe someday I'll add a rotary turbine subsidiary booster to get my 1 million horse power)