Compression Test on 24 Hours of Lemons 200-6

So, if you didn't read the introduction post: Last weekend we built and raced a 1979 Ford Fairmont Futura in the 24 Hours of Lemons road race endurance series for cars with a $500 retail value (and actually 14 hours over 2 days). It was pretty much bone stock with nothing done but the smog and AC stuff removed and a free flowing air cleaner added. It ran great all day Saturday and started smoking Sunday. Sunday with 2 hours to go it just wouldn't run no more. It was tired. I don't blame it. The odometer was showing almost exactly 99,000 miles when we rolled it off the trailer and we did about 600 miles flat out in the course of the race.

A compression test today reveals: - 60 - 125 - 100 - 75 - 50 - 60 -

A little oil down the bores raised the compression a little, but not a whole hell of a lot. Maybe 10 points. So it looks like this motor is toast. I may keep it as a core, but I will start looking for a replacement on Craiglist and the local junkyards. I may just get 2, depending on what I find.

parkwood60":3up9zubl said:

So, if you didn't read the introduction post: Last weekend we built and raced a 1979 Ford Fairmont Futura in the 24 Hours of Lemons road race endurance series for cars with a $500 retail value (and actually 14 hours over 2 days). It was pretty much bone stock with nothing done but the smog and AC stuff removed and a free flowing air cleaner added. It ran great all day Saturday and started smoking Sunday. Sunday with 2 hours to go it just wouldn't run no more. It was tired. I don't blame it. The odometer was showing almost exactly 99,000 miles when we rolled it off the trailer and we did about 600 miles flat out in the course of the race.

A compression test today reveals: - 60 - 125 - 100 - 75 - 50 - 60 -

A little oil down the bores raised the compression a little, but not a whole heck of a lot. Maybe 10 points. So it looks like this motor is toast. I may keep it as a core, but I will start looking for a replacement on Craiglist and the local junkyards. I may just get 2, depending on what I find.

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Where can one fine a list of the rules for this race??
Are engine swaps allowed??
Can you move the engine back say 6 inchs??

You need to find a dead later model Mustang GT and swap everything over. 87-93 will definitely work, but most of the 94-04 stuff also fits.

The front suspension, bigger brakes, faster steering, rear end, shocks, springs, and sway bars are all bolt ins and should help the Fairmont handle better.

You can do a little surfing, but there was also an old mod that moved the front crossmember forward a bit to get more caster out of the struts.

That engine is toast, but whatever you find, try to keep the late Farimont head. It just needs milling to get the CR up to a better level.

http://www.24hoursoflemons.com/pricesandrules.aspx

There is a link to the rules above. Basically it is an endurance race for race prepped cars with a retail cost of $500 or less. We bought the Fairmont Futura, running with 98k miles on it for $600 and sold off more than that in trim and interior parts on Ebay, leaving us $500 to spend still. Someone from another Ford forum donated a complete 5.0 big brake set up as they were doing a 5 lug conversion. I pulled a 5.0 GT rear sway bar out of the junk yard along with V8 Thunderbird springs (with at least 1 coil cut off. The rear had nearly new Gabriel shocks on it, and we put brand new matching struts on the front with Energy Suspension urethane bump stops. I also got a 7.5" LSD rear end to replace the stock 3.08 6.75" one that came in the car (this proved to be a mistake as we were geared way too high, but we had no traction issues). We ran 225/50-15 Sumitomo HR200 tires on 15" 5.0 GT Turbine wheels.

In the end we really had no big handling issues, we could hang with just about anyone in the corners, but our acceleration and terminal velocity were pitiful. I am the builder and team captain and as such I ordered my guys to leave it in D and learn to drive the car. Which we all did. For the next race we will shift the C4 manually, or at least leave it in 2 and shift it into D only when it gets near redline on the long straight.

People keep saying "put a V8 in it" but I keep telling them that there are tons of V8 mustangs in the series (and one V8 Zephyr sedan) and we don't have the terminal understeer issues they have because we have 200lbs less sitting on the front wheels.

A rebuild of this motor, or a new motor off of Criagslist will be coming for Christmas. If I get a new motor I will keep the head off of this motor, as well as the carb, and the cam and lifters, and of course the oil pan (which I need to fit this chassis). I know this is one of the best flowing heads. The cam from the specs I've seen has the most duration of any of the factory cams with its handicap being that it is installed very much advanced. I also may keep the exhaust manifold and get an extra outlet braised onto it.

I'm thinking sneak in a 250 and slide it back a couple of inches. It will take even more weight off the front wheels.
And find you one of the 85 and newer 5.0 stang front sway bars its like 1 5/16ths or so.
I remember you asking about exh manifolds. Can you weld decent?? I get pieces of other maniifolds and weld up what you need.
I just happen to have a set of 05-08 5.7 Hemi manifolds The outlet size ID is 2.8 inches!! If you want one/both for the cost of shipping you can have them. THey look to be about 10 lbs each i am at zip code 45645.

How I wish they had something like around here. It like like so much fun.

"I can make any other car take a Ford's dust"
John Dillinger

I've done the homework, and your only limits are the cast iron conrods, rings, and how you gear it. It's 1972 Bathurst 500 mile race all over again, with 216 hp of triple carbs, a screamer cam, a low restriction exhast, and a four speed box, trim, taut terrifically low weight, And a flimsy diff which often darted and ducked. A combination that took out 350 net hp 351 4v Clevelands in well sorted hard sprung Falcon GT's. The car? A Holden Torana.

40 years of experience might place an iron headed log I6 on the podium.

Buy any 200 dollar I6 Fox junker, and I'll send you a head, carb, cam, junkyard AOD trans and my adaptor (or find you own SROD trans) and demon diff ring and pinion swap that'll take you ahead.

220 hp is how much you need, and you'll get that with three used 32/36 Webers, one low load stress XU1GTR 202 Torana spec cam, the huge low restriction later model foot ball converter hockey puck exhast. The secret is making the log head an independent runner item, and giving it the air flow and lift via that hard core cam. Dyno runs prove that single carb air flow is compromised unless you have brilliant air fuel distribution, flow efficency, and low intake Volumes (Vi), close centres of discharge from the carb to the intake valve, and that gives a low cfm head a fifth dimension of power missing in non IR set ups.

Use 3.73:1 Four cylinder 2.0 Ranger/Aerostar ring and pinion diff in a 7.5 or 6.75 housing. I'd look at 82 5.0 GT slapper bars before a slippery diff. Use a 18.62 mph 3rd gear to win a 1/4 mile hauling through the traps at maximum rpm (14.8 secs/93mph), Moroso dreamwheel is 200hp net 3000 Ibs 95 mph 14.4sec. See http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 1%2F4+mile

and the over drive to make max speed at the rpm where maximum power is at. 27.79 mph per 1000rpm is 4900 rpm at 136 mph. 220 hp yields 136mph if you See the speed calcs http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=65985

I've validated the Quarter mile, and MPH using the calculations from Hondata's Doug McMillan, a Kiwi who has made a little 97 cube CRX take out a 155 mph class win. The right Fox body isn't such an appartment block with respect to aerodynamics, and the right cam will do the right thing to a 200 cube sixes performance. The sump will take the 200 six to victory..it won't suffer oil starvation like a 5.0 can.

I'm totally okay with the 225/50 15's to lower the centre of gravity of a cars bad four bar diff arrangment which is known not to hook up well up any gradient, probably the Fox cars worst feature. Understeer can be dialed out by the driver, and balanced by oversteer. You'll have to make sure if its power steered, the belts don't get thrown when you rev the living daylights out of it.

80broncoman":1s2k3f1x said:

...THey look to be about 10 lbs each i am at zip code 45645.

How I wish they had something like around here. It like like so much fun.

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http://www.24hoursoflemons.com/events.aspx

GingerMan Raceway, Michigan at the end of April

Autobahn Country Club, Illinois beginning of June

Mid Ohio Sports Car Course, End of October

My father keep pitching the 250 at me too, but I told him there is barely enough hood clearance for the 200 and the 250 is taller. Plus I'd have to replace the C4 transmission, which is the best part of the drivetrain at the moment. But the real deciding factor is that I can find running 200s all day long for less than $500, and I haven't seen a 250 in ages. There are at least 3 200 powered Fox chassis cars in my local wrecking yard right now in fact.

xctasy":2gwjyat1 said:

"I can make any other car take a Ford's dust"
John Dillinger

I've done the homework, and your only limits are the cast iron conrods, rings, and how you gear it. It's 1972 Bathurst 500 mile race all over again, with 216 hp of triple carbs, a screamer cam, a low restriction exhast, and a four speed box, trim, taut terrifically low weight, And a flimsy diff which often darted and ducked. A combination that took out 350 net hp 351 4v Clevelands in well sorted hard sprung Falcon GT's. The car? A Holden Torana.

40 years of experience might place an iron headed log I6 on the podium.

Buy any 200 dollar I6 Fox junker, and I'll send you a head, carb, cam, junkyard AOD trans and my adaptor (or find you own SROD trans) and demon diff ring and pinion swap that'll take you ahead.

220 hp is how much you need, and you'll get that with three used 32/36 Webers, one low load stress XU1GTR 202 Torana spec cam, the huge low restriction later model foot ball converter hockey puck exhast. The secret is making the log head an independent runner item, and giving it the air flow and lift via that hard core cam. Dyno runs prove that single carb air flow is compromised unless you have brilliant air fuel distribution, flow efficency, and low intake Volumes (Vi), close centres of discharge from the carb to the intake valve, and that gives a low cfm head a fifth dimension of power missing in non IR set ups.

Use 3.73:1 Four cylinder 2.0 Ranger/Aerostar ring and pinion diff in a 7.5 or 6.75 housing. I'd look at 82 5.0 GT slapper bars before a slippery diff. Use a 18.62 mph 3rd gear to win a 1/4 mile hauling through the traps at maximum rpm (14.8 secs/93mph), Moroso dreamwheel is 200hp net 3000 Ibs 95 mph 14.4sec. See viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5142&hilit=1%2F4+mile

and the over drive to make max speed at the rpm where maximum power is at. 27.79 mph per 1000rpm is 4900 rpm at 136 mph. 220 hp yields 136mph if you See the speed calcs viewtopic.php?f=5&t=65985

I've validated the Quarter mile, and MPH using the calculations from Hondata's Dave McMillan, a Kiwi who has made a little 97 cube CRX take out a 155 mph class win. The right Fox body isn't such an appartment block with respect to aerodynamics, and the right cam will do the right thing to a 200 cube sixes performance. The sump will take the 200 six to victory..it won't suffer oil starvation like a 5.0 can.

I'm totally okay with the 225/50 15's to lower the centre of gravity of a cars bad four bar diff arrangment which is known not to hook up well up any gradient, probably the Fox cars worst feature. Understeer can be dialed out by the driver, and balanced by oversteer. You'll have to make sure if its power steered, the belts don't get thrown when you rev the living daylights out of it.

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That is a lot to digest in one message. The race last week was our first, and we did better than anyone would have expected. We seem to have gotten the chassis pretty balanced, if we had had any power to counter the understeer we would have been fine. The plan, now that we know the chassis set up works okay, is to gradually add power. The straight six suffered no overheating issues, no oil starvation issues and very little in the way of fuel starvation with the stock 1bbl Holley. Everything is on hold till at least after Christmas, then I start shopping for another motor.

parkwood60":1rpk5138 said:

The straight six suffered no overheating issues, no oil starvation issues and very little in the way of fuel starvation with the stock 1bbl Holley. Everything is on hold till at least after Christmas, then I start shopping for another motor.

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Wouldn't have expected any less...It's okay. Read it, feed on it, and know that I've got the parts you need

I have a 1982 Mustang 3.3 with the mighty 87 hp B-code 3.3, a massive 7 hp down on the 1981 version, and 2 hp up on your T code engine. I guess you could say I do modifications of The Mighty BLT Burger Sixes. (200 and 250 factory engine code sixes in x and s shell Fords. Oh, there was a U code 170 six too.U,T, L and B engines were our little sixes

I bought my Mustang to develope a log head triple carb, independent runner carb set up I've been developing since 2003. Its now used as a road roughness meter and a State Highway Audit car for 20% on the South Islands road network. Its slated for 11400 miles and 18 audits this next calander year, all of it with an overdrive transmission adaptor, triple Weber set up, and I'm working on a fast road cam pacakage for this.



Or 25, 26 and 27th engine down in this reference http://mustangattitude.com/mustang/engine_allci.shtml

I love these engines, and I'd love to help since its a budget project.


I'm thinking that if you do the fabs to my designs, you'll get 220 hp without breaking the bank.

Be in touch!

See http://piledriverz.com/ for the race summary.

Love your new exhast!

Just wanted to make some pointless comments.

Congrats on your job well done!

Second...where did you get the rear spoiler on the Fairmont? Thats what I want on back of my 85 Coupe.

I put a 1981 inline six K-member into a 1985 Mustang. We had to notch the rear K-member bolts as they would not line up. You can notch all four bolt holes and slide the K-member forward 1/2" which gives you a coupe degrees of needed positive caster.

You can also slot the metal brackets on the struts at the spindle end inward towards strut body .250" to move the bottom of spindle in to improve negative camber, another thing lacking in the Fox bodies.

I dont know if your rules allow caster camber plates but the two above mods give similar effect but not the adjustability.

88-93 late model K-members had a 1" wider front track. The 90-93 K-member had slightly different control arm angles designed to increase anti-dive percentage.

You can also take the steering rack to a machine shop to mill the pad face of the rack where it bolts to the K-member. This moves rack closer to the K-member and gives some much needed Ackerman steering.

I currently have installed 94-95 SN95 brake spindles with the 11" front rotors onto the stock 81 A-arms. You need several hardened washers to serve as spacers to allow castle nut to tighten against to install the cotter pin. The SN95 spindles give better steering response and improved turn in. You will have to use HELP! section brass adapters to adapt Fox brake lines to SN95 calipers. This thread has the adapter P/N in it: http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread.php?t=39732

If you use V8 struts your fine but 4cyl struts require a washer on each side between strut and bolt. PITA if you drop it. I did and it went between rotor and spindle. Had to pull spindle back off and almost had to pull calipers and rotor off to get out.

Ford came out with the 15:1 quick ratio steering rack IIRC in the 1983 Mustang GT. The rack should be marked with a ink stamp that says 15:1 or IIRC a purple ink dot or splotch.

A word of warning. The quick ratio rack also requires a high volume power steering pump model number E6SZ-3A674-B. If you use a stock pump with the quick ratio rack it may drive normal on street but on track it may lockup briefly during quick steering changes til pump catches up. By the time steering returns you may be off roading.

I have read that on the later SN95 models Ford got same effect by installing a inline reducer on pressure side return to raise line pressure to get same effect. Might be worth looking into. You can install a SN95 rack into a Fox but the SN95 has a triangular steering shaft while Fox is more round. Maximum Motorsports sells a adapter but its not cheap (IIRC about $260).

DONT use 96 and newer spindles. The tie rod end mounting point is relocated and gives really bad bumpsteer which cannot be tuned out.

For rear brakes to keep costs down you can look into finding a set of 10" rear drums. I have been told these are more common on the Fox body station wagons. I would also look up the article that used to be on here about drilled brake drums. They offered a significant advantage over non vented drums and served same purpose as people who now drill or slot brake rotors.

People will tell tell you that you cannot use a SN95 8.8" rear in a Fox body. I have a 96GT rear bolted into my 85 Mustang and it fits just fine. This gives me 5 lug rear with disc brakes and since it was a GT I have traction lock and it came with 3.23 gears.

Ford used to sell M-5500-A upper rear control arms which was a upgrade. Ford discontinued these and they are becoming hard to find. The SVT rear uppers sold by Late Model Restoration are supposed to have been released to fill the gap and are same design with same durometer rubber bushings.

Could glass bead or soda blast them to remove paint, leave outside thil they get a nice layer of rust and install onto the car.

You can go to junkyard and find 99-04 Mustang dual piston PBR calipers which are a big upgrade on calipers and will install with some modifications (grinding away some metal) to the caliper mounting ears



I have a collection of 1.00"front, 1.12" front, 1.31" front and .55", .79" and .95" rear swaybars so I can test and tune.

My goal was to race my Mustang in the Indianapolis Winged Warrior Challenge in May. http://wingedwarrior.org/

Looks like I will miss that this year as well.

xctasy":39bcsebg said:

See http://piledriverz.com/ for the race summary.

Love your new exhaust!

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Still working on the exhaust, as well as swapping my 2.73 rear end gears for a set of 3.73. So much work to be done! and time is quickly running out.

Pulling the head off the race motor revealed the #1 piston has a crack right down the middle. I suspect we raced for about 3 hours with it like that.

Thanks for all the other chassis information. We are gradually upgrading this car as we add power and learn to drive it. Its an amazingly easy car to drive flat out on the race track. With the stock power steering and rack you can pretty much drive it one handed the whole time.

I still need a Fox body oil pan and oil pump. I am swapping my old one onto a rebuilt 60s falcon motor. I want to be able to fix the old motor and button it back up as a back up motor.

The rear spoiler on our car is made out of a piece of 3/8" plywood and 3 3 1/2" door hinges. You could do a similar but better looking job with hinges and a piece of plexiglass. Use some turn buckles and you can make it adjustable too.

parkwood60":143my4x9 said:

swapping my 2.73 rear end gears for a set of 3.73....

.. With the stock power steering and rack you can pretty much drive it one handed the whole time.

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I don't think you'll be seeing that 100mph with the 3.73 gears.

JackFish":3uxwohlc said:

parkwood60":3uxwohlc said:

swapping my 2.73 rear end gears for a set of 3.73....

.. With the stock power steering and rack you can pretty much drive it one handed the whole time.

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I don't think you'll be seeing that 100mph with the 3.73 gears.

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You don't think the motor will hold together to get enough RPMs to go 100mph, or you don't think we have enough power to push the car thru the air at 100mph? Top speed is not all that important. I just like to think of 100mph as a safe speed to figure what sort of revs the motor will be turning flat out. We topped out at about 80mph leaving it in drive last time. It was also adjusted poorly so we were in 3rd way too early.

With the tires we have on there now we'd have to turn just over 5000rpm to hit 100mph. But taller tires will most likely be used.

1.6: Your Car May Be Destroyed at Any Time: In addition to accidents and other unfortunate boo-boos, one car may be selected by blind ballot of all teams for immediate removal and total destruction. It could be your car. It probably WILL BE your car. You'll have 30 minutes to yank out any safety items you want to rescue, and then it's toast. Them's the breaks. Don't bring it if you ain't OK with losing it.

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So this means your car has to be destoyed? do they do that? what if you refuse for your car to be destroyed because of the blind ballot? no offense but I don't think I'll be in the race due to sad waste of a lemon racer...

edit: I'm okay with accedents, but not the blind ballot/30min rule...

I believe the old 250s used 2.5 inch exh flange on the header. Used that instead of the big converter can for more power. The older 170 head milled .062 raisd the compression to 215. The first couple years of the 250 had a slightly wilder cam than the 200. A .062 flat washer under the rocker arm shaft stands corrects geometry fairly well. One of the washers needs an enlarged hole were the oil feed comes from into the rocker shaft. Several engines have also Teed off the oil pressure sender line and plumed a tube under the valve cover and into the shaft.
Dont remember the motor mounts on that chassis but used motor mounts from a 170 Facon on my 70 to move the engine back 1 1/2 or 2 inches.
250 weighs almost as much as a 302 think about 20lbs lighter. 200 is actualy lighter than a pinto motor. 380lbs for 200 think the pinto is 420. Might have been 320 for 200 and 375 for pinto been a while since I thought about it 1980 I think.
One pinto carb with adapter works great. Slightly heaver valves springs good for a 1000 or so RPM. Humm might have some.
I had oiling issues with my 200 going around corners so fast even at low speeds oil pressure droped. Reason I BUILT A ROAD race T pan with trap doors for my 256GT.

MPGmustang":3tq2rp33 said:

1.6: Your Car May Be Destroyed at Any Time: In addition to accidents and other unfortunate boo-boos, one car may be selected by blind ballot of all teams for immediate removal and total destruction. It could be your car. It probably WILL BE your car. You'll have 30 minutes to yank out any safety items you want to rescue, and then it's toast. Them's the breaks. Don't bring it if you ain't OK with losing it.

Click to expand...

So this means your car has to be destoyed? do they do that? what if you refuse for your car to be destroyed because of the blind ballot? no offense but I don't think I'll be in the race due to sad waste of a lemon racer...

edit: I'm okay with accidents, but not the blind ballot/30min rule...

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That rule is still on the books, as well as the claimer rule, but...

Since 2007 there have only been 2 cars claimed by the organizers.

Since 2010 there have been ZERO cars destroyed under the "curse" rule. It is still in there to deal with the occasional team that comes to the track with a fast car, little driving skill, and lots of attitude and proceeds to dive bomb other car in corners and generally behave like an ass.

You no longer need to worry about your car being destroyed. You do have to worry about showing up with a terrible looking car that has a full stock car motor under all the grease and grime and proceed to embarrass everyone else out there on the straights. The guys at Pratt & Miller showed up with a 50s Chevy truck with a cast off full race small block under the hood. They were allowed to race it but the organizers claimed it afterward just for the motor, and to make an example of them.

turbo2256b":epz3tf24 said:

I believe the old 250s used 2.5 inch exh flange on the header. Used that instead of the big converter can for more power. The older 170 head milled .062 raisd the compression to 215. The first couple years of the 250 had a slightly wilder cam than the 200. A .062 flat washer under the rocker arm shaft stands corrects geometry fairly well. One of the washers needs an enlarged hole were the oil feed comes from into the rocker shaft. Several engines have also Teed off the oil pressure sender line and plumed a tube under the valve cover and into the shaft.
Dont remember the motor mounts on that chassis but used motor mounts from a 170 Facon on my 70 to move the engine back 1 1/2 or 2 inches.
250 weighs almost as much as a 302 think about 20lbs lighter. 200 is actualy lighter than a pinto motor. 380lbs for 200 think the pinto is 420. Might have been 320 for 200 and 375 for pinto been a while since I thought about it 1980 I think.
One pinto carb with adapter works great. Slightly heaver valves springs good for a 1000 or so RPM. Humm might have some.
I had oiling issues with my 200 going around corners so fast even at low speeds oil pressure droped. Reason I BUILT A ROAD race T pan with trap doors for my 256GT.

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We had no oiling issues. I think it has something to do with the way the oil pan/sump/pick up is configured for the Fox chassis. We were never in a corner long enough for the 12" long pick up tube to run dry before the oil sloshed back into the center of the pan.

The predissor to the 256GT would easly go around a 90* corner at an intersection over 60 MPH.
What springs are you running front and rear? There was a chassis flex issue with that model found racing them years ago in the front end. Still have a kit offered to remidy it.

Friends and I ran a 6cyl Gremlin for a few years in circle track won overall 2 years before they figured how to factor us out.

Learned long ago if you got something that can walk all over the compitition your best off winning by a few feet than a mile.

turbo2256b":3k5ssrvs said:

......
Learned long ago if you got something that can walk all over the compitition your best off winning by a few feet than a mile.

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X2 on that for sure.