Just got the "go ahead" for the CI head....

Ok guys,

My wife and I had a heart to heart about the Mustang. Here's what I told her, but with fewer words -
1. Rebuild 200 head - $250-300 poor performance ~100 hp
2. Rebuild 250 head - $650 total for purchase and rebuild ~120 hp
3. Do the dreaded V8 swap. Total cost will be around $2000 as I'll need a transmission and radiator in addition to the engine. HP expected around 250
4. Buy a CI head and shoot for ~210 HP, cost around $2000 plus a few parts.

I also explained that the machinist thinks I have a solid block and he has now machined it out to .040 over and the crank is polished. The block will also have a double roller timing chain and the following cam - 264S-110: 264/264 - 214/214 - .441/.441 - 110* - 1700-5400

So, we discussed the daily driver plans for the car and expectations. Essentially, it will be my only car. I also think that when I am done, I could easily sell it for upwards of $10k and get everything out of it.

Now, I plan to order a complete head ready to bolt in. My main question is regarding the rocker assembly. I cannot reuse my old assembly as it is toast. What is the next best and a good price? I'm assuming everyone will push me in the direction of the roller tipped rockers. I want them, but unless absolutely necessary, I would like to avoid that expense at the moment.

Anything else I should be aware of???

Thanks!

Jason

I believe the rockers can be rebuilt, but thy depends on how toast is totally toast.
Option two would be try to find some junkyard ones, or on this forum, however, I would rebuild the ones from a junkyard anyways.
Since you should use the adjustable rockers with this head your simplest solution would be to get a set of adjustable rockers in 1.5 or 1.6 ratio from classic inlines. This is also where you would buy the rebuild kit for the original rockers.

Gerald.

Yeah, the CI head is so brilliant, you'll be constantly amazed at the results.

The rocker gear is a problem with six cylinder Fords. If its totally stock, either the early 1960 to 1964 fully adjustable, or the later non adjustable, you'll most likely be happiest.

The third option of roller rockers are not mandatory, and most guys here who have done the old Australian 2V head swaps have found that the stock gear is safe and reliable. Two instances of 200 six with 2v conversions and the Yella Terra roller rockers yielded problems with roller rocker ball to pushrod wear problems in 2004. Each was rectified by going back to the stock six cylinder rocker gear.

If moving to roller rockers, you have to do additional homework making sure the valve tip to rocker contact is within the required recommended middle third on the valve tip. If it isn't, you have to procure different pushrod lengths or use lash caps as a final option to get the right rubbing contact. Stock pushrod lengths might be okay, but when you go to roller rockers, things change.

wsa111":3v5g2scz said:

As was mentioned before, do a mockup & use an adjustable pushrod.
The ideal length is at midlift the rocker arm footprint should be in the center of the valve stem.
The correct length is the one that has the least footprint on the top of the valve stem.
Do the checking with either a solid lifter if the head is already assembled otherwise use a weak spring which is made for checking for correct pushrod length.
Mike, can order special length pushrods from clay smith cams. Their pushrods are of top quality & the cost is reasonable. I know from a previous ordered set. Bill

Click to expand...

If you work with Classic Inlines, they will help you find the right parts, but other suppliers may give you wrong sized pushrod tubes, and the ones you order have to match the recomended hydraulic lifters. There are edge oriface and standard types, each has different dimensions.

Roller rockers take more time to set up properly and reduce side loads and will definately reward you will longer valve gear life, but the stock replacement rocker gear is fine if set up properly.

Meant to add in that this is a 200 head, so the original rockers were the non-adjustable type

170-3tree":2qwepltc said:

I believe the rockers can be rebuilt, but thy depends on how toast is totally toast.

Click to expand...

Ya, had a look at them with the machinist. The shaft had some deep grooves cut into it and the tips of every rocker was worn down beyond what is "good". He recommended rebuilding the kit.

If I read both posts, it looks like I could "rebuild" my rockers or get a new stock set and be relatively happy.

Thanks for the opinions. Much appreciated!

Jason

I think your a bit optimistic on 210 hp , but still rather than swap in a V-8 in its about a even deal for money , BUT if its POWER , your looking for , 200 inches no matter what head is still only 200 inches , a engine that makes a 1hp per cube and is STREET driven is about the limit for a normal EVERYDAY driver , the cool factor is worth something , Id say 175 is more like it. Your money , your car whatever you decide

I know you can also buy just the shaft. But in the end, if it were me, I would buy the new set from classic inlines. It might be a few more bucks, but you know you're getting good parts first try.

I'm with FSD on this one, a bit of healthy scepticism goes a long way when your at the 1 net flywheel hp per cube basis. In 2008, 266 flywheel hp is apparently there if you check the dyno rooms 211 hp at 4850 rpm run by Michael Raley, and that was just a 4-bbl 480cfm carb and alloy head away from a calculated 176 flywheel hp (139.8 rear wheel hp) was what a stock 2v iron Aussie head with your planned cam and a 350 cfm Holley was doing back in 2005 See viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26413&p=186908&hilit=Dyno#p186908.

I know that its possible to get 245 rear wheel hp from a 200 cube six with exactly the right flow, juicer, squeeze and stick applied. Having a good head, good carb, good compression and the right cam will bring the 200 to life, but its nothing if the rods aren't forged and gearing doesn't suit the loading. Ideal diff gearing is 3.20-3.23-3.25:1, 5-speed 3.47/1/93/1.29/1.0, 0.79:1. Gearing with autos is complicated, because you need to be able to use 2nd when overtaking when you have a 1 hp per cube auto engine. If its a high flow head 3 speed auto with 200 cubes, you'll always have major problems with too low cruise gearing, so you'll need a verified loaded stall of over 2500 rpm, and run a 3.25 to 3.40:1 diff with smaller height tires. Stock 24.5 tall tires and 3.00:1 ratios will result in too higher first gear, and higher than required gearing at 60 mph, but you can't have everything. Ideal ratio is 3.36:1 with an auto. As a word on going 250 instead, compare this to an alloy headed Holley 500 2-bbl carbed which 250 loves 2.92 to 2.75 gearing with a 3 speed, I've spent 3/4 of a decade behind an alloy headed 250, little Heatseaker HS10E 252 cam and 25.5 inch tires, and you can use kickdown at the drop of a hat to overtake. See http://kastang.tripod.com/fsp/xecute.html

If you spend hours on the dyno, you'll get that 210 hp easily with your components, but you'll have to do the dyno work, and get it varified. Its nothing to have two dynos vary by 40 hp on a 210 hp engine. Basically, even an alloy headed 200 engine has to be wrung out via good gearing to get the full effect of 210 flywheel hp.

FalconSedanDelivery":2jl60dej said:

I think your a bit optimistic on 210 hp , but still rather than swap in a V-8 in its about a even deal for money , BUT if its POWER , your looking for , 200 inches no matter what head is still only 200 inches , a engine that makes a 1hp per cube and is STREET driven is about the limit for a normal EVERYDAY driver , the cool factor is worth something , Id say 175 is more like it. Your money , your car whatever you decide

Click to expand...

TxAgs66":2jl60dej said:

....
4. Buy a CI head and shoot for ~210 HP, cost around $2000 plus a few parts.

I also explained that the machinist thinks I have a solid block and he has now machined it out to .040 over and the crank is polished. The block will also have a double roller timing chain and the following cam - 264S-110: 264/264 - 214/214 - .441/.441 - 110* - 1700-5400.....

Anything else I should be aware of???

Thanks!

Jason

Click to expand...

So with dyno time, you'll most likely get 210 hp with that cam. Again, you'll have to revise your gearing, and degree the cam to suit your carburation. You need to follow http://www.classicinlines.com/Dyno2.asp, MRaley (Mike Raley's) 200 Mustang.
See it in context here at http://www.classicinlines.com/dynoroom.asp

You'll better off being excessive with the flywheel to dyno hp loss, or you'll underestimate the peak hp you'll need. From extensive work recording drivetrain losses in Australia on I6 and V8 Falcons I maintain that hp loss with a t5 and 215 section tires is 26.5%, so if you want 210 flwheel hp, you'll need to eclipse 210/1.265, which is 166 rear wheel hp. A 4-bbl 470 cfm vac sec Avenger, vac sec 4180 cfm Holley 4-bbl ex Mustang GT or 460 F150 truck carb would be my choice. Mike Raley's didn't even need a 274 cam and used small 350 cfm 2-bbl with a very good intake to make 176 rear wheel hp. Final figure was likely to have exceeded a 1973 De Tomaso 5.7 L at 248 hp, and certainly a 1973 Mustang HO 351 , both very strong 9.1: low compression Clevelands with 266 net flywheel hp. And that's what 211 rear wheel horspower is with a 1.265 factor, and engine that has more peak power than the strongest emmissions 351 C ever made.

Lets put it all in context with factory 5.0 4-bbl and EFI Mustang engines. Both MRaley's last run was better than a stock 1993-1995 5.0 EFI GT40 spec SVT engine. We used them in Falcons down here, and if you got 175 rear wheel hp from a 221HP factory rated XR8 5.0, we were happy. The full on Explorer GT40 spec 5.0 248 hp XR8 Sprint and 255 hp EL GT Falcons often didn't make 200 rear wheel hp. The last Aussie Yella Terra CNC ported US Import 5.0's yielded 295 flywheel hp, and never saw more than 233 corrected rear wheel hp. With a lock-up clutch auto with 2350 rpm stall, each rating was 1.33, or 33% down. So you'll need to exceed 157 rear wheel hp on a calibrated dyno reading.

a note on the financial experience with these i6's...
take the planned parts $$$ amount, and x3... that's what you'll likely end up spending on the entire project. :mrgreen:

but the HP to cube ratio is correct... it will be difficult to make the 210 RWHP mark, it's been done but as others have pointed out it's all in the dyno time. there's where your money will best be spent.

IMO
200ci block bored .040 over
alum head with 49cc chambers
4bbl intake with fast 600cfm 4bbl TBI
274/274 112 .450-.495 lift (higher better especially with alum head) degree'd @ 0*
dished pistons
Balanced, balanced, balanced
DSII ignition, or DUI controlled by 'fast'

this combo should make 200+HP at the tires. the FAST system will calculate the best ratio and keep everything in check...

but the total price tag is scary... might as well go v8 and get 350+ hp for close to the same price... (not to scare ya but i6 is not for the slim wallet when going for hp it's best for MPG)

Conversant with a budget, Im certain there is over 176 hp with 2v intake, 500 cfm 4412 Holley 2-bbl, alloy head is doable based on the 3rd dyno run Mraley did. With the 274 cam, with a good set of cheep and easy to get 3.55:1 gears on a four stud 8" diff, a rebuilt c4 auto with 400 dollar a loose converter based on a Pinto core, 25.5 inch rear tires , you'll have something which will live a long time. T5 is nice, but you'll have to spend the time getting it sorted.

That's my pick.

The reason sixes are expensive is the desire we have to change to V8 spec gearing, non World Class T5 gearboxes and buy other durability or convience stuff not specifically related to performance. A Ford guy on a shoe string can't change gearboxes, or spend extra on 9" diff ratios or spend up big on better a/c. If it's just a higher numerical 8" diff, you'll get it easily and cheaply. For me for instance, my Mustang has a plastic 6.75" 2.73 diff and a C3 auto, so I'm stuck building around this since 7.5 and 8.8 " 3.73:1 diffs are expensive, and so my combo has to be build around these items unless I can adapt an Aussie Cortina 7.875" 3.7:1 ratio diff (the same housing as the later f-body 1986-1989 Camaro's G92 code 2.77/3.27/3.45 Aussie Borg Warner/BTR diff).

Most people need A/c on old cars with out through flow ventilation, or power steering so a lot of us have to spend big on these items. I have to because I use my six for business. So sixes aren't expensive, they are just requiring a lot more smarts to win cost wise. That's why I've saved by keeping the small six C3 gearbox bellhousing and when it dies, my dime a dozen Sierra A4LD or Explorer 5r55 5-speed will go in, using the Aussie 250 block adapted the last of the small C1 iron heads used on the 1966 200 to three carbs. I am looking at the 264 cam. So for me, compression ratio, the hugely improved intake flow from the direct runner carb match the low rent cylinder head flow, with the camshaft and drivetrain conspiring to make 210 hp without a cost equal to Zorba the Greeks development costs. A 250 cube engine with a tiny high compression 48 cc log head but with great short runner 6 barrel carburation makes power at low rpm.

Budgets are there to keep us on track. Read the Crossflow Chronicles. We have to say no to non critical gear. For a 200 which is currently auto, a bigger cam with a looser converter auto and the best 500 cfm you can get will give you the bare bones to make you and your wife really happy. There is world class cylinder head air flow, fair economy and cost effectiveness in the above combo. A Clay Smith 274 cam with duration will cost no more, but require good compression. If its not loaded up with a restrictive torque converter and isn't overgeared, a longer durstion cam won't require higher octane fuel...the Classic Inline head has mixture motion and better thermal conductivity on the tick list. I'm fairly certain 91 octane will suffice. Iron headed 11:1 compression iron headed Clevelands used to be able to take four star 91 octane at a pinch when they had 280 degree cams...higher duration reduces octane requirement if the effective compression ratio doesn't go up. This is comming back to the cold cranking compression message, where the overall exhast event is controlled to stop detonation.

If your running power steering or a/c, then you might have to accept a little less cam at 264 duration, and save up for a 4-bbl and Classic Inlines intake later on.

personal preference I would skip the DUI if it is a budget and do a TFI distributor. It will still run the FAST setup and with a latemodel coil it will be just as hot with the spark.

While the FAST setup is nice it is a little pricey and on a chassis no setup for EFI there is more costs to be rolled in with it.

I would look at a small 4bbl carb. you might wan to even consider a 2bbl (I am not saying to stay limited to a holley or autolite.....maybe even a quadrajet?)

If you have the means for doing a EFI conversion it will be well worth it. If you can handle the technology then you might want to look into a megasquirt and spend the $50 on the autotune feature for it.

But for all the money on the alloy head and a EFI conversion I think you could do better with a blow through turbo. I managed to get low 20's mileage wise in mine on a BONE stock 200 (small log head and smog compression) using a T-Bird turbo and a 350 holley. The only problem with this is it will require some fabrication work.

Would a stock or almost stock 250 and a T5 be an option? I know you have a 200 block partially prepared. I paid $125 for the 250 in my Bronco and it had a recent valve job it runs real good. It was a great deal and I know not everyone will find the same but there are decent ones available. I saw a T5 on Craigs list awhile back for $200, I should have bought it. If you can basically almost just bolt this stuff in for $500 - $600 it looks good to me. You can still add the aluminum head down the road.
I have been thinking about a 65-66 Mustang with this drivetrain.

Thanks for the fantastic replies everyone! Lots to chew on. Sorry I haven't been around, I had to go offshore for a bit of work in the Gulf of Mexico.

I'm pretty sold on the CI head. The big problem here in Houston seems to be that there just aren't any 250 engines or heads around. According to my machinist, the salt air, tons of rain (not this year), and cash for clunkers destroyed most available cores.

So, let's see what I am going to do overall -
200 block, .040 over
264/264 110 cam
double roller timing chain
Weber DGES 38 carb
Dual outlet CI headers
Duraspark conversion (best bang for my buck yet)
15" Torque Thrust Ds
CSRP disc brake conversion up front
9" or 8" rear with drums in back, traction loc, I seriously can't remember which size. Sad how long this project is taking.
T-5 transmission, non-world class.

In the end I am looking for a daily driver. I bought this car in 1993 when I turned 16, so it is a project of love. I seriously abused this car and it did me good. I may try to put together a turbo and a throttle body setup eventually. For now, I'm just going to stick with the carb.

I'm going to have to read all of these posts a few more times.

Jason

Shame your not closer , My 250 is for sale 1500.00 top to bottom , front to back

Bummer. We are considering a road trip to Maine, but early next fall. Oh well. I can get this 200 up and running and look for a 250. I have a knack for finding free engines. Just don't have the time for the horse trading at the moment. I can always build up a 250 and then swap it in.

Jason