Fresh 200 with oil drip issues

bubba22349":1u9jye6t said:

The valve cover with Powered by FORD stamped onto it would be period correct for your 68 / 69 block. Very early 144 and 170 engines would have had the plain valve cover or block lettered valve cover would only be important if you wanted to keep car original looking to year it was built. Some years of engines will have the oil fill at the back and the pcv at the front and some have it the opposite it dose not really mater only that the PCV and breather are placed at opposite ends of the valve cover. It is also important that a valve cover has baffling were the PCV valve is installed to help keep it from drawing in excessive oil. 15 or 20 PSI at idle RPM would be safe.

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Thanks Bubba

anotherhassel":1u9jye6t said:

I must respectfully disacred. The valve cover in the pics is not correct. On my 68 block and head the powered by for is in script. Also the oil fill tube is in the front and made from steel no rubber grommets..

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Thanks Another Hassel

79granada":1u9jye6t said:

the cover in the picture is identical to my 79 250

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Thanks Granada.

As far as valve covers go, I’ve learned a lot. All of them seem to fit the head. But there are vast differences above the gasket flange. The newer covers are taller and wider.

I did install an early valve cover on my block. It fit but just barely. My pcv was not protected by a shroud and I did suck oil, seeing a few puffs of blue smoke from time to time. Also I noticed that idle speed was reduced, maybe because the vac line flow was slowed by oil.

I tried to build a shroud for this cover and I was not able to guarantee that the rockers would clear, so I scrapped the idea and ruined a cover.

UPDATE:

On Friday I decided to take the Ranch to work. It is a great test run because I know the landmarks of where I can expect to get oil pressure issues. Thursdays test of idling the motor in the carport made me believe that I had found a solution to the mysterious oil pressure.

BUT the drive to work proved that I have not cured the motor of its odd oil pressure issues. The oil pressure issues still exist.

I noted that this time the oil pressure was great for quite some time. Then something happens that causes the pressure to slowly drop down to 20psi while maintaining 1500+ rpm. At stop lights the oil pressure remains at 20psi then climes up to 30 and quickly back down to 20.

BUT on my way home I took a different route which caused me to drive a longer distance. At one point on my way home, close to my house, the oil pressure returned to normal operation. I don’t know what caused the change.

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I purchased a WIX oil filter and will install that this weekend. I will put my motors valve cover back on. Changing nothing else, I will drive to work and back to see if the oil filter is the villian. Currently I’m running a FRAM oil filter.

My local Baxter Auto parts just installed a display showing an exploded view of a Wix filter. I know what a Fram looks like inside, because I’ve cut two of them open. The Wix filter is MUCH better built, designed and has a real good filter.

I’ll let you know if the filter caused any change to my condition.

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QUESTION: How do I test the oil pressure regulator? Is the oil pressure regulator built into the oil pump? I think I threw my old pump away after my rebuild so I dont have anything to look at right now.

Thanks

Though the first Powered by Ford valve covers did show up in the late 1960’s it’s a different one from in your picture was a large long script style that was not bordered. My mistake case of brain fade anotherhassel & 79granada are correct that the valve cover in the picture is a later model one. My 77 250 also has one that's a similar style with border around the powered by Ford but it’s at the front of cover. There are lots of different V.C. styles and as far as I know they will all interchange on any the small sixes with ease if you use the right combo of PVC and other parts.

The pressure relief valve is located in the oil pump they are removable and the spring can be changed or shimmed to increase the oil pressure.

bubba22349":u5d2oypz said:

Though the first Powered by Ford valve covers did show up in the late 1960’s it’s a different one from in your picture was a large long script style that was not bordered. My mistake case of brain fade anotherhassel & 79granada are correct that the valve cover in the picture is a later model one. My 77 250 also has one that's a similar style with border around the powered by Ford but it’s at the front of cover. There are lots of different V.C. styles and as far as I know they will all interchange on any the small sixes with ease if you use the right combo of PVC and other parts.

The pressure relief valve is located in the oil pump they are removable and the spring can be changed or shimmed to increase the oil pressure.

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Thanks for that info.

Is there any tech threads on this forum about shimming the pressure relief valve?

Do you feel that my oil pressure fluctuations could be caused by a bad valve?

If the spring or entire mech. was faulty (or soft) wouldnt I expect to see low oil pressure across the board, no matter the temp of the oil?

Is there any tech threads on this forum about shimming the pressure relief valve?

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I don't know if there is any posts about shimming it's been done for decades back to the old Model A's and Flathead V8's. It's very easy you ad a washer or a couple to raise the spring pressure they also use to have replacement springs with more tension.

Do you feel that my oil pressure fluctuations could be caused by a bad valve?

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It's not likely that the valve would be bad. If by chance some dirt or grit happen to get into the valve it might cause it to stick than as the engines gets warmed and things expand it would loosen up.

If the spring or entire mech. was faulty (or soft) wouldnt I expect to see low oil pressure across the board, no matter the temp of the oil?

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Oil pressure is always higher at start up and low temps as it warms up pressure is going to go lower. Did you check you bearing clearances? If so do you remember what they where? If your engine has loose bearing clearances the oil pressure would also drop as the engine got warmed up. With some higher mile motors or those that I built with racing clearances (IE loose on purpose) I use a Melling HV (High Volume) or HP (High Pressure) oil pump raise the oil pressure

bubba22349":2hg0n6sx said:

Is there any tech threads on this forum about shimming the pressure relief valve?

Click to expand...

I don't know if there is any posts about shimming it's been done for decades back to the old Model A's and Flathead V8's. It's very easy you ad a washer or a couple to raise the spring pressure they also use to have replacement springs with more tension.

Do you feel that my oil pressure fluctuations could be caused by a bad valve?

Click to expand...

It's not likely that the valve would be bad. If by chance some dirt or grit happen to get into the valve it might cause it to stick than as the engines gets warmed and things expand it would loosen up.

If the spring or entire mech. was faulty (or soft) wouldnt I expect to see low oil pressure across the board, no matter the temp of the oil?

Click to expand...

Oil pressure is always higher at start up and low temps as it warms up pressure is going to go lower. Did you check you bearing clearances? If so do you remember what they where? If your engine has loose bearing clearances the oil pressure would also drop as the engine got warmed up. With some higher mile motors or those that I built with racing clearances (IE loose on purpose) I use a Melling HV (High Volume) or HP (High Pressure) oil pump raise the oil pressure

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I've looked up Melling, but do not see an HV or HP pump for my 200 ci Ford inline six motor.

As for my bearings, they are brand new. The motor has less than 700 miles on it.

Wow your right I don't see an HV listed but there are 4 pumps for the Ford 144, 170, & 200 Melling # M65, M65A, M65B, & M65C or the repair kit Melling # K-65B to use with [M-65B] & OEM pump body, it includes the gear and rotor with pressure relief valve and spring. It used to be that you added the HV or HP to the end of the standard part number to order them. When you drop your pan you should disassemble the pump and look over the parts, if you can see any scoring of end plate or any trash in it. From your picture it looks as if you engine is real clean did you run a gun brush through the oil passages? If the engine was full of a lot of sludge when you took it apart there is a chance of some crude being there. Did you notice any dirt or trash when you dumped the oil or at bottom of the pan if you took it off? However if it was fairly clean to start with and all the galley plugs were removed before a hot tanking or jet clean than more than better chance it's clean enough and was good to go.

Don't fool around, replace the pump.
Melling builds there pump real tight very little clearance. The result is scoring in the pump.
Sounds like the pressure relief valve is binding & or sticking.
Do not shim the relief spring, the pressure in these pumps is really too high.
If you shim the spring for more pressure you have a darn good chance of wiping out the distributor gear due to the increase in load placed on it.
On all my pumps i clearance them & lower the oil pressure hot from 55# to 45# hot.
This is a quote from a series of posts several years ago. Myself & Will Does10's posted this.
These specs are from a post several years ago.
This post was written because of the internal scoring in the melling oil pumps.
Rotor to housing .004"-.006", tip to tip at least .004" & vertical clearance to housing .003"-.004
With these clearances you will not have any internal pump scoring. Good luck Bill

Thanks Bubba and Wass111

I’m in the process of ordering a new pump, but will inspect the old one…read on .

My motor was thoroughly gone through by a machine shop which is highly recommended by local inline six fans here in Portland Or. I had them do extra things to this motor like align honing the block and crank, balancing the crank, installing hardened valve seats and repairing damaged threads. When I got my parts back I looked them over and all looked fantastic. All soft plugs were new and any port which used a threaded plug had a new threaded plug installed. I’m confident that this motor was gone over with a fine tooth comb (or barrel brush). Here are some other photos of the block.









When I changed my oil I did see some junk in it. Small pieces of gasket sealer is my best guess. Probably a portion which squeezed in toward the block during assembly. I was concerned at first but realized that the oil filter would have (should have) filtered this stuff out before it was sent into my motor. But know that I think of it, I don’t recall seeing much gunk in my filter when I cut it apart.

I’ve looked at the M-65B & M-65C pumps on Summit Racing’s website. Summit states that the M-65C has a 5/16 longer mounting neck!!

I’ll call Summit this week and try to find out how long the M-65B mounting neck is. Then I’ll measure my pump neck and try and determine which pump I have….wait I have the receipt.

I purchased a Sealed Power Oil Pump P/N: 224-41146.

I did not realize that M65B was cast into the body of the pump. #@!% !! I threw my old pump away months ago. I don’t know if purchased the right length pump!! and I dont know if I have a stock oil pan or not. hahahahaha, wow.

I had no clue that there were two (or possibly more) length oil pumps for this motor.

QUESTION:

How would you guys measure the area between the oil pan and the pick up screen? I have some ideas, but am curious how you’d do it.

Thanks.

Your motor looks very clean.
Sealed Power Oil Pump P/N: 224-41146 interchanges with a Melling M65B.

With the pump mounted to the block with a straight edge across the pickup tube measure from the oil pan rail to the straight edge. If the gasket is on the pan rail still that's OK. Lay straight edge across the oil pan rails than measure to bottom of sump were the pickup tube would be subtract the two and the difference is distance pickup tube is off the bottom of the oil pan also add the compressed gasket thickness if the gasket was not on the blocks pan rail.

bubba22349":1vj4gbmx said:

With the pump mounted to the block with a straight edge across the pickup tube measure from the oil pan rail to the straight edge. If the gasket is on the pan rail still that's OK. Lay straight edge across the oil pan rails than measure to bottom of sump were the pickup tube would be subtract the two and the difference is distance pickup tube is off the bottom of the oil pan also add the compressed gasket thickness if the gasket was not on the blocks pan rail.

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OK, that was what I was thinking, just wondered if there might be other ways.

I think I can drop my pan with the motor installed in the Ranch. I have to drop my anti-roll bar. We'll see how it goes. I’ll keep you all posted.

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I did some surfing this evening before dropping my pan. I wanted to know if others had experienced anything like I have.

YES, others have experienced this same odd oil pressure fluctuation.

Seems that there are two main theories Bad Pump or Bad Bearings.

From what I’ve read so far: Bad Pump’s will provide regular (expected) oil pressure until the motor reaches operating temp. When oil thins out and internal parts warm up oil pressure drops off slowly. If the oil pressure regulator spring sticks or is faulty it can cause odd readings as well.

Another cause of a bad oil pump is internal wear. Some companies rebuild old pumps and the housing could be just out of tolerance.

Bad Bearings seem to cause the opposite effect. At start up oil pressure seems lower than normal. Under heavy acceleration one would expect the oil pressure to raise, but if bearing are bad the oil pressure either remains the same or drops. Then on deceleration one would expect the oil pressure to decrease, but you’d actually see the oil pressure raise a bit before actually dropping. Goosing the throttle creates downward pressure on the crankshaft (via connecting rods and pistons) this downward pressure pushes the crank away from the block main cap bearings thus opening up a larger than normal gap allowing oil to race past it and this drops oil pressure. When letting off the throttle the crankshaft quickly returns to its neutral position, thus closing the gap and boosting the oil pressure for a little bit.

DON’T QUOTE ME ON THIS STUFF. I’ve read a bunch of threads, most of which are written by people like me who still don’t know whats going on. Hahahah, but in my mind these explanations make sense.

The main lesson is that I have followed the logical steps so far. Checked the easy stuff first and work you way down. Once I get that pan off, I’ll have something to share with you all.

Thanks

UPDATE:

I dropped the oil pan today. Had to remove my anti-sway bar, tie rod and cross member.

Here are the photos of my oil pump.



















From my untrained eye, I’d have to say that this looks good.

MEASUREMENTS: From block gasket surface to bottom of pick up screen: 6 ¾”
From pan gasket surface to bottom of pan: 6 ¾”
I find this odd. According to my measurements my pick up screen is sitting on the bottom of my pan.

Does anyone else have some measurements to compare with mine??

Oil pick up screen did have a gasket between it and the pump.
Oil pump did not have a gasket between it and the block.

Oil pick up screen was secure and well fastened to the pump.

Oil pump was secure and well fastened to the block.

No crud in my oil pan other than the gasket I chipped into the pan while trying to remove the glued on pan. I did a good job!!

I had placed a hard drive magnet on the bottom (outside) of my pan to grab any shavings…there were none.

The oil pressure regulator spring looks great. I squeezed it and it is fine.

I did slide the plunger in and out of its hole, allowing gravity to move it as I tipped it side to side. As the plunger moved out (toward the spring) the plunger would hang up. But this is not really a good test. The plunger looks perfect, just like everything else.

I don’t know what to say. I was hopping for something a bit more obvious than this.

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Next I’ll take a peek at my bearings.

I spoke with my friend who helped me build the motor. I could not recall plastigaging my bearings but she dose. It was her first motor build and I followed every rule and she recalls me explaining why plastigage is so important. That makes me feel better.

More later. I’m beat.

thesameguy":hf8uc28r said:

bubba22349":hf8uc28r said:

Were oil pump bolts to block needs to have the correct gasket and be bolted on tight.

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I don't mean to derail this thread, but quick q: On my '68 200, I removed the oil pump to get at a main bearing cap bolt, and there was no gasket between the pump body and block. I reassembled with no gasket. I did not see a gasket in the exploded diagram in the manual http://www.scribd.com/doc/54682662/1968 ... hop-Manual). Nothing in the assembly/disassembly (8-49, absolute page 332 on scribd) says anything about a gasket or sealant. Is there really one here, or maybe it varies from year to year? Now is the time for me to put one in if there is one!

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Hey Same Guy.

I could not recall putting a gasket inbetween my pump and block. Now I kow that I didnt.

Summit Racing doesnt offer a gasket either for my oil pump either. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEL-M-65C/?rtype=10 . I searched "Oil pump gasket" for Ford Ranchero / Falcon 1965 and the only gasket I found was the pick up screen to pump.

I dont think there is a gasket for this part. Are you guys SURE there is a gasket there :

Pump shows some signs of scoring. Did you prelube it or engine before starting? Or it maybe that the gear clearance was too tight to start with. You could get the end plate resurfaced, than you need to see what clearance you have with the gears in the pump body.

Yes, I did put oil into the pump and moved it all around before installing it on to the block. Then before motor brreak in I ran the oil pump with a drill untill I got some oil at the rockers.

Does this scoring seem excessive or unusual?

What about my measurments of the block to oil pick up screen VS the oil pan? How much clearance was suggested between the screen and the bottom of the pan?

I dont t hink I'll get anything resurfaced. I dont want to spend the money on it. I'll buy a new pump if everyone agrees that this pump is shot. I'll search for a local opinion too.

Thinks for the info.

Ouote form my last post.
Don't fool around, replace the pump.
Melling builds there pump real tight very little clearance. The result is scoring in the pump.
Sounds like the pressure relief valve is binding & or sticking.
Do not shim the relief spring, the pressure in these pumps is really too high.
If you shim the spring for more pressure you have a darn good chance of wiping out the distributor gear due to the increase in load placed on it.
On all my pumps i clearance them & lower the oil pressure hot from 55# to 45# hot.
This is a quote from a series of posts several years ago. Myself & Will Does10's posted this.
These specs are from a post several years ago.
This post was written because of the internal scoring in the melling oil pumps.
Rotor to housing .004"-.006", tip to tip at least .004" & vertical clearance to housing .003"-.004
With these clearances you will not have any internal pump scoring.
Get a new pump & clearance it to what is stated above.
Use a flat surface with 600 paper to remove metal from the bottom of the rotor, mount the rotor in a drill press & remove metal from the tip clearance.
Then hand sand the ring to get the proper clearance from ring to housing.
Doing this will prevent further scoring & will lower the oil pressure slightly & you will have not other oil pump problems.
And there is no gasket from pickup to block. Bill

I agree with Bill. Pumps are cheap and if you have access to it, just change it. There's no performance advantage to creating a lot of oil pressure.

As far as the gasket goes, I have a couple of engine rebuild gasket sets here on the shelf that has them in it. I have one each for a 200, 250, and a crosslflow. I kind of recall using one on the last couple of builds, but I'm not sure it's really necessary. I don't think I've ever disassembled an original that had one.

MEASUREMENTS: From block gasket surface to bottom of pick up screen: 6 ¾”
From pan gasket surface to bottom of pan: 6 ¾”
I find this odd. According to my measurements my pick up screen is sitting on the bottom of my pan.

Click to expand...

If your measurements are right and the oil pan is still nice and straight ( i.e. not dented in) than you should adjust the oil pickup tube upward i.e. toward crankshaft an 1/8 inch than with the oil pan gasket you will be about right on pickup height. Another way to check it is put some modeling clay on bottom of pick tube (on the strap) than set the oil pan on the block, remove pan and measure the thickness of the clay.

Wsa111, Mustang Six & bubba22349 I appreciate your input and tech. info. I’m learning allot and your help is much appreciated.

I am going to purchase a new pump. Turns out that there are 4 possible pumps which fit this motor, but there are slight differences between them.

M-65 = Only offered in 1960-1963 - fit 144,170 & 200. Uses the ¼” pump shaft.
M-65A = Offered in 1963 only - fit 144,170 & 200 Uses the ¼” shaft


M-65B = From 1965(?) to 1980 for 170 & 200. Used the 5/16” pump shaft.


M-65C = Pump body neck 5/16” longer than M-65, M-65A & M-65B. ONLY USED ON FORD MOTORS BUILT IN ARGENTINA.

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UPDATE: I took my pump down to Majhor & Murray LTD in Portland Ore.

http://www.majhormurray.com

I spoke with their head mechanic. We discussed several things. He did not feel that my pump was bad. He stressed < DO NOT > shim my pressure regulator spring. He heard of such a thing and it blew two oil filters like a grenade.

We talked about the pressure regulator valve. He saw the small score marks in the bore and was concerned about them.

We also talked about pick up screen clearance. I let him know that I barely have 3/8” clearance. He suggested ½” of clearance. If a pick up screen is too close to the bottom of the pan the suction can actually cause cavitations. I was honest and said that my pan was a bit concaved and my clearance could be a bit less than 3/8” in places.

He educated me on oil pumps, oil pressure and oil volume. Turns out that an oil pump does not create oil pressure. An oil pump simply provides volume. The pressure is at any place the oil can escape back to the pan. If your crank bearings are worn, then the oil will escape easily, thus lowering the oil pressure. Oil will take the easiest route and oil pressure is a reflection of this. Also, if your oil is foaming, oil pump is gulping air or not secured properly the volume of oil will be reduced and this will look like reduced oil pressure. I’m sure I butchered this up somewhat.

To ensure that your motor is tight you need to see where oil is escaping and how quickly it is escaping. To do this I would need to pump oil back into my motor under 40psi and watch my main caps, connecting rods and other places that oil is fed. I was told to look for drips. If I saw streams then I’d be in trouble. However, the lifters and rockers will pool their oil on the head, drain back into the lifter gallery and then drain back to the pan, so there will be some steady streams.

They lent me a tool which is a can that can be filled with oil, pressurized (equipped with a pressure gauge) and it has a hose to connect to the oil pressure outlet on my block.

Melling has made some good videos to check out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjCIuJwnVqU

I did as they suggested and it was frickin cool!!.

Best news is that my motor is performing properly. All of my bearing points on the crank dripped. Oil flowing down my timming chain was slow and steady. Oil draining from my head was constant as I’d expect (I’d just rand my motor without a valve cover and knew how much oil to expect from up there.)

So I think I’ve really narrowed this down.

I’ll get a new pump which I hope will have a free moving regulator valve and I’ll buy a new oil pan. I’ll do the 3/8” dowel test with the new pan and if it is still not ½” clearance I’ll gently alter my pick up screen.

That’s it so far.

So all this time and it was just that the oil pan was caved in? Glad you got the problem all straitened out

I have ordered a new Melling pump, pick up screen, pump screen, NEW oil pan and gaskets. Once these things arrive and installed I'll update this thread as to what I find.