Motor bogging only on right turns

The title says it all. HW 5200 carb and '67 200 motor. Motor will stall out and die for a second then fire back up about halfway through the turn. Never happens on lefts only on rights. Rebuilt the carb to see if I could get rid of it with no luck. Float has been set at high, medium and low with no discernable change. Any ideas?

Check your motor and tranny mounts, make sure the engine isn't shifting position affecting the throttle linkage, or electrical wiring. Power steering or another accessory could also be binding loading up the engine.

TucsonHooligan":3adsstxe said:

The title says it all. HW 5200 carb and '67 200 motor. Motor will stall out and die for a second then fire back up about halfway through the turn. Never happens on lefts only on rights. Rebuilt the carb to see if I could get rid of it with no luck. Float has been set at high, medium and low with no discernable change. Any ideas?

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:USA: :wrench: :NZ: TucsonHooligan, where you been man :smash: :deadhorse: !

The problem is two fold. Firstly, the carb is around the wrong way to what it is supposed to be, Weber designed it to have the fuel bowl facing forward in the Pinto, Cortina, Capri. But the US 2.6 and 2.8 Capris swung it round 90 degrees like we do with our in line six log head conversions. There is not much you can do about that. But what you can do is do what Ford Australia and Ford Europe did to improve fuel mileage and eliminate the need to limit the fuel pump pressure, and that is fit a 1983 Fox body 4-BBL V8 style return line. Our local Falcons after 1982 had it on its X-flows with the Weber ADM 34 (which was the Fiat 131/132 2-bbl twin cam carb in some markets).

Page 2 in this PDF talks about the Ford return line.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/man ... uretor.pdf

The Holley Weber has a blind hole on 1974 on version for a return line hole that just needs a 0.5 mm jet thwacked into the return line hose mount, and it gets pumped back to the fuel tank by either a Carter return line fuel pump (standard version on XE to XF Falcons, and similar to the 5.0 HO fuel pump). So its a vapour and fuel return line.



That normally gets better fuel consumption as the needle and seat doesn't get overloaded, and fuel pressure drops to less than 2.5 psi. The other thing is that fuel surge goes away, and the fuel cutout with it.

It happens on left hand turns because of the geometrics any time the car makes sudden a lean more than 3 degrees, the float will drop down more suddenly than if it was supplying 500 hp of fuel. The flow volume via a 3psi set pressure regulator will most likely fail to replenish the supply. Leans of up to 8 degrees are possible on a stock I6 Mustang, and the float drops right down very quickly, and the fuel line cannot make ammends quickly enough. With a return line and the bleed back valve, the fuel just keeps coming on into the needle and seat until the needle and seat stops it.

A lean of 8 degrees is depicted here.



The other method to correct it is to remove the float, add race car fuel cell filler, and run a David Vizard style sump in the base, with the stock pump feeding, and a good 255 Ford electric pump scavanging. Then it won't need any float, any adjustment, and you can tip it 45 degrees in any direction and it'll run a sweet. I'm not sure if I have that page in my SOHC Ford Pinto engine book any longer, but that may be your best bet if a return line and fuel pump change doesn't do the trick.

By the way, fuel surge was a common 144/170/188/200/221/250 I6 problem from 1960 to 1981, the Cortina was the worst, then Ford Oz fixed it on the Falcon. 21st birthday present?

"...fuel surge was a common 144/170/188/200/221/250 I6 problem from 1960 to 1981..."
would that only be with the vehicles that had this carb? My 170 Bronk does well on gradients w/it's YF...

Flade99":3st2ecfk said:

Check your motor and tranny mounts, make sure the engine isn't shifting position affecting the throttle linkage, or electrical wiring. Power steering or another accessory could also be binding loading up the engine.

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This is an interesting idea and the reason I love this forum: I never would have thought of this on my own. My mind was solely focused on the carb. Unfortunately it wasn't what you described. I went out and took some right turns and listened for the engine to die out with no luck. It idled right through the turn and didn't hesitate or die out until I hit the pedal, then the bog came. If something was binding or shorting out, the motor would die regardless of pedal action. Also, mounts are all new and fresh and checked out snug. Thanks for the answer tho!

@xctasy

Howzit my upside-down kiwi friend? I've been MIA due to school and work. Just finished my senior thesis and starting work on a Master's degree next week. Whole process has had me in the books instead of in the garage. Never enough hours in the day it would seem...

Anyway, I think you nailed this problem bang on the head. I had thought this may have been the problem based solely on my mild mechanical knowledge, but assumed there was no way the car angled enough to cause such a drastic dip. But now that I have been in this carb and rebuilt it, I see where the jets sit and the whole thing makes complete sense. It's weird because throughout this build nobody ever mentioned this being a problem with the HW 5200. I'm wondering if that means I'm somehow in the minority in dealing with this or if it's just common enough that people take preventitive action right from the start. In any case, I will be following your tips and seeing what I can do to remedy the problem. It may take a few weeks, but I'll update on the results when I get some.

Thanks again! :thanks:

Glad to help, even if it was't the problem in this case. The i6 engines has a very dangerous issue in the early Fords where the left motor mount fails. On these motors there is no safety catch on the mount. When you step on the gas hard, the motor will torque to the right, if the mount fails it has the effect of pushing the throttle linkage to full throttle and you will get a runaway engine condition. The only thing you can do is shut off the engine. This happened to a friend of mine back in the early 80s, she was lucky to getting shut off before crashing. Since then I have recommended everyone with an early i6 replace the motor mounts. I know a few people who install safety chains as well.

I am glad this whole topic came up. I have read a lot about using the 5200 carbs as well and never heard anyone talk about this issue. I will file this away for the future should I decide to upgrade from the Holley 1946 I just installed.

I have this problem. It happens on left turns in my case, but I suppose my carb is mounted the other way around. It's a weber 38/38, by the way, but the fuel inlet/float system is essentially identical to yours. Let us know how the fix turns out. Some of us are dying (okay, bogging...) to know.

I had a similar problem with a stall on hard right turns.
I eventually traced the problem down to... an aftermarket DSII control box. Not where I would have thought to look initially.
The "epoxy" potting had shrunk and cracked. Then during a ridiculously heavy downpour, water apparently got up into the box. Not enough to kill the box, but on hard right turns the water sloshed over and briefly shorted the control box out.

I replaced it with a 30 year old OEM unit, with still perfectly sealed potting.

Rick(wrench)

Definitely a carb issue in my case.

falcon fanatic":3q8s262b said:

Definitely a carb issue in my case.

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Yep, its that the 38 seires is a copy of the handed version of the 5200 Holley Weber, so if you mounted them in the variety of piossible ways, the 38DGAS and 32/36DGV without the fuel return line might cut out in different hand turns. So be aware of that. The Holley Weber is a DFEV/ DFAV derivative with a cluster of changes, and the 38DG series follows the 32/36 DG series choke arrangement.

Its the little thinks like that that make the versions of this crb so versitle, but so darned hard to track and trace. That's why I produce the information in its totallity/




turn cutout fixes, the saga continues...


I just spent three hours looking for the full images of the US V6 5200 Holley Weber set up with this,



the factory 90 degree adaptor for 2.6 and 2.8 Cologne V6's but to no avail.


The 1974 to 1977 Capris before the advent of the variable venturi carb and 2150 versions had the worlds wackiest adaptor set up, but it worked, and a poor flowing version is made by Clifford and Stovebolt. I use a version like this on my triple carb conversions, but space is limited on 250's due to height.

In essance, you have 2 (two) choices to fix the problem with fuel slosh.

1. It was as far as I can tell, eliminated in domestic US versions on the D4RY-9510-J onwards 5200 Holley Weber by some form of return line or mounting practice for Capri and Mustang II applications. The geometry of the US 5200 Holley Weber in the US market 2.6 and 2.8 Capris needs to be copied and used in the 200 i6.

2. The other option is to swing the carb back 90 degrees like these ones (Thanks CrashBob and 250mav, you saved my life, but I wasn't able to remote link your photos due to photobucket restrictions, and its vital I have photos to explain this)



http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a255/ ... rChoke.jpg



NB// Unlike Holley 1bbl , 2bll 2300 and 4bll 4150/4160 carbs on I4 and I6 applications, the Weber and Holley Webers are all designed to flow to the centre of the 2-bbl centre line, so no matter which way the carb is turned, fuel flow is not biased front to back cylinders


Problem is details are hard to find, but bear with me, because its the key as Ford USA fixed the fuel surge/slosh with this particallr carb, and since the 38DGAS and 32/36 DGV are similar castings, but mirror imaged to the US made 5200 Holley Weber, you just have to get your head around the geometrics of the problem to find a solution.

Details:
The standard application for the 38DGAS Weber was the Cortina, Taunus, Capri and Granada engines, both Essex 60 degree and Cologne 60 degree V6's, in various sizes from 1990 cc to 2994 cc, from the late sixties to the late 80's, from England, Germany, South Aftrica. The Cologne had 2.0,2.3,2.6 and 2.8 liter variants, the Essex 2.5 and 3.0's.

In some markets, it was the Solex 34 and 38 2-bbl version of it, but still basically the same 2-bbl simultaneous opening carb.

European practice had the carb turned around like the 1979 versions of the 2150 Motorocraft and Variable Venturi Fox Capri and Fox Mustang, and some 1980 versions of the Pinto. In this, and the 2000 and 2300 versions on the Pinto, Mustang II and Fox, the carb was facing the 'right way' in respect to the original designers intent.

Below is the stock application for the 38DGAS Weber, an 83 European Ford Granada with funny V4 exhast manifolds and the similar to 2600 and 2800 intake.



With the 38DGAS Weber mounted, the European, South African and English variants had a carb mounting like this on the Cologne V6.



In North American applications, the Cologne Capri got a 32/36 Weber or Holley Weber 5200 with return line on the 1972 to 1977 2600 and 2800 V6's. The Pinto and Mustang II 2.8 was a German import used in domestic models. Ratings and the accuracy of magazine articles vary, but they were always net hp ratings of 93 to 109 hp depending on the use of Duraspark ignition and the 5200 Holley, 2150 or variable venturi carb in 1979 Mustangs, Pintos and Capris.

In these, it used a small adaptor to spin the carb around 90 degrees. The change was made for emissions sake, as the 38DGAS is a performance orientated carb, with a large gain in power with the 2.8 making 135 hp net, while the best US Capris were 93 to 109. US emmisions were heaps stricter than Germany and England and US fuel grades forced a deap drop in compression ratio, and the US variants of the 2800 had 3 branch heads while the German and English Cologne V6's ran the V4 two branch exhast systems. There was still a good gain horsepower wise in running the bigger 38DGAS.

Fuel slosh and right turn wasn't a problem in the US market Capri, Pinto and Mustang II, as the US market V6's with the 5200 Holley Weber had a mirror image carb mounted.

Every US 2.6 or 2.8 'Mercury' Capri and 2.8 Mustang II in existance seams to have its 5200 Holley Weber removed for a 2150 or 350 Holley 2-bbl,




so pictures are had to find




http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/201 ... nkyard.jpg

Yep, gotta turn the carb. I just scored an electromotive TEC-II fuel injection computer with integrated ingnition from a friend, however, so it looks like my future efforts will be toward converting to a CFI unit run by the TEC-II. Different headaches for sure.

http://www.racetep.com/emc.html

TucsonHooligan":2v13cyge said:

...... Motor will stall out and die for a second then fire back up about halfway through the turn. Never happens on lefts only on rights. ......

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Possibly you have the rare "NASCAR Speedway Six" engine.......

Good suggestions here. I would definitely look at float levels, but also make sure the float itself isn't getting hung up when turning.

I have a few floats for some Holley 1946 carbs.
There are two types, with one type having a small brass insert that would seem to perhaps have a stabilizing effect on the float.

I'll post this just because its also interesting, tho not your problem.
A buddy of mine had an old buick that would stall and die when turning right, and eventually we figured out it was his battery. A plate had broken loose inside and when he turned right it would short out the battery and kill then engine. Anyway, hope you get your fuel sorted.