Oil Pressure concerns

You do not want rtv on anything involved with the oil pump. Pump to block is metal to metal screen tube with flange to pump gasket only. Bill

Bill

I don't question you integrety, I actually found some pieces from the pan I believe inside when I removed it. I have dealt with Bubba before so like a person may get a 2nd medical opinion it never hurts to ask to be double sure. Thanks for your help.

X2 I do agree with Bill, I don't use RTV (silicone) on or near an oil pump or for that matter very much when building an engine especially for interior use. Many people tend to over use RTV and there are many cases of engine failure to back that up. I usually use nothing but the gasket for oil pickup to pump if you want to use something you can use a little permatex liquid to paint the gasket around the hole.

Clev 77 is a great bearing (favorite of mine) .010 so your crank should be .010 undersize

For sure, they come with a gasket:

Yep and on Ford engines I have been using them for many years. There was a debate about this gasket sometime back and yes with perfect machining there should be no need to use that gasket

Here's the readings of the plastigauge (green)

1Main Less than .076
2 " " .076
3 " " .076
4 " " .076
5 " " Between .051 & .076
6 " " " .051 & .076
7 did not do because of concerns about the rear seal.

1Rod Between .038 & .051
2 " .038 & .051
3 .051
4 Between .051 & .076
5 " .038 & .051
6 " .038 & .051

I'll await the results from the doctors of engineology.

Thanks

Denny

Unless there is another 0 inther ie .0076 instead of .076 they are way too loose. Even at .0076 they are loose, main bearing clearance on a 1965 200 is .0007 to .0026. Are you sure you read the plastigage correctly.

My readings are all metric. I'll check the paper gauge to be sure.

the gauge says mm (milimeter)

The other side should read in thousands. I think there ways to convert your measurements online too.

Just multiply inches by 25.4 to get metric equivalent. It looks like the numbers are pretty consistent, and that's a good thing. It indicates that the machinist was careful and/or had good equipment to do the work.

As far as the clearances you measured, here's my take, using the numbers I found earlier:

Correct main bearing clearance - .0005 to .0022 inches (.0127 to .0558 mm)
Correct rod bearing clearance - .0008 to .0024 inches (.0203 to .0609 mm)

Good news - the rod bearings are within spec (#4 is a little questionable, but hopefully it's nearer the .051 than the .076 - I wouldn't worry about it at this point.)

However, your main bearing measurements convert back to approximately .002 to .003 inches. That's a little loose, but I don't think that extra thousandth would kill your oil pressure. It would certainly have some negative effect, but I'm not sure how much. I'll be curious to see what anyone else thinks about that.

Meanwhile, you've crossed a few more bridges and know that much more about your engine. Won't be long before you're an expert!

Hang in there.
-Stu

stu in wichita":1o9tk255 said:

Correct main bearing clearance - .0005 to .0022 inches (.0127 to .0558 mm)

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Mr Comet":1o9tk255 said:

1Main Less than .076 mm
2 " " .076 mm
3 " " .076 mm
4 " " .076 mm
5 " " Between .051 & .076 mm
6 " " " .051 & .076 mm
7 did not do because of concerns about the rear seal.

Click to expand...

.076 mm devided by 25.4 is .00299 inches or almost 3 thosands of an inch. This is to loose by .00079 inches.

stu in wichita":1o9tk255 said:

Correct rod bearing clearance - .0008 to .0024 inches

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Mr Comet":1o9tk255 said:

1Rod Between .038 & .051 mm
2 " .038 & .051 mm
3 .051 mm
4 Between .051 & .076 mm
5 " .038 & .051 mm
6 " .038 & .051 mm

Click to expand...

.038 mm is .00149 inches
.051 mm is .0020 inches

The rod bearing seem fine.

69.5Mav":13w5d5q5 said:

.076 mm devided by 25.4 is .00299 inches or almost 3 thosands of an inch. This is to loose by .00079 inches.
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The rod bearing seem fine.

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Exactly what I said. Thanks for double checking my math.
-Stu

Guys
With these conditions are we looking at an engine which may go 80k instead of perhaps 100k? Another thing is the craftsmans torgue wrench was not available yesterday so I did the test with my HF wrench and stuck with the low end 18# rod 60 # main torgue for safety concerns. When the wrench is in I can randomly check the mains I've using the inch side gauge. I have just bought a 73 maverick 250 engine with 96k on it for $100. Before I pull this engine to get the problem(s) corrected I would rather get all I can out of the one in the car while slowly rebuilding the 250. Then when I do need a change one out one in. But back to Bubba list it appears to me that leaves 7 and 8. What's involved with checking those out? What's the odds of it being those? can I see it?

Stu

Thanks for encouraging me to do this. I have learned so much and as the commercial goes "priceless"

Thanks all

I really don't know what the impact will be on engine life. I'll be anxious to hear Bubba, wsa11 and others weigh in on the .003 clearance. These guys have far more real world experience - they'll know what you can get by with, versus what is ideal. That extra thousandth may not be a huge deal. I'm sure someone has some insight into this.

As far as the last two items on Bubba's list, cam bearings are possible, but for some reason I don't think they're likely. Not sure why I say that, maybe because there isn't any easy way to check them. I've never taken apart an engine that had significant wear on the cam bearings, but it does happen. More often I've seen them damaged from junk in the oil. Since you haven't really found any chunks of metal laying inside your pan, maybe the cam bearings are a good gamble.

On the galley plugs, if one was missing, I think the oil pressure would be ZERO, even at start-up. A plug could be cross-threaded or not fully tightened, so that's possibility I guess. Anyone have a list of how many and where all the plugs are? I know some are relatively easy to access, but others, not so much.

At this time, I'm thinking that maybe it's time to button it back up, cross all our fingers and hope that the big issue was the oil pump mount.
-Stu

It's waiting until Sears comes thru on the new wrench so hopefully we'll hear more from the other members. Never get too much help on something like this and as you said it may come down to just seeing what happens.

Been having Internet connection problems the last couple days hopefully it's fixed now. I like to see bearing clearances at .001 to .0015 max for a street engine, and have also run .0025 to .0035 in a race motor. With your stated goals as a temp engine I think you can work with what you have, you should probably use a thicker weight oil like 20 W 50. Since you found that the bearings had been replace is good chance the cam bearings were too and likely the galley plugs. You would need to take the front cover off to check them so up to you if want to go further. I add a link later to show were to look. Otherwise torque your mains and rods to middle of your range an install the new oil pump, prelude it and see if it helped i am betting you will be getting higher oil pressure with the new pump. Did you find any metal fakes or trash in the pan when you opened it up?

Edit
The correct order to torque the mains is from the center cap (4) and alternating back and forth moving out towards the front and rear of the block. I.E. like 4 to 3 to 5 to 2 to 6 to 1 to 7. I use a three step torque sequence like 25, 45, 65.
On front of the block under the front timing cover there is supposed to be an Oil galley plug installed behind cam timing gear just above the cam retainer plate and a little to the left. Not sure you would be able to see it with a very small mirror and flash light otherwise you would need to remove the front timing cover. This oil galley runs front to rear to feed all the lifters, so there needs to be an installed plug on the other end of the block where the bell housing bolts up. There is also the other end of the camshaft and it should have a larger soft plug installed there. If you did not notice any oil leaking out at the rear of the engine or below the bell housing you could assume that these plugs were likely installed correctly. Did you hear any valve train noise when your engine was running?

Here is a video link that has a good view of the oil galley plug at the beginning, hope that its of some help.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plcp&v=bbUeLAp6XaI

Is there any down sides to using the heavy oil? Also would feeller gauges give me a more accurate reading than their little piece of paper? If anyone needs the red plastigauge let me know because it came in the set with the green. I want to read the mains again just since the first time I didn't realize how important the most accurate reading is. I'll keep you posted. Thanks

Mr Comet":2abrzaof said:

Is there any down sides to using the heavy oil?

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A heavier oil won't flow as easily in cold weather, but will help maintain good pressure when it's warm. A straight 50 weight wouldn't be good, but 20W50 is a multi-viscosity oil - flows like 20in the winter (that's what the W stands for) and like 50 when hot. Shouldn't be a big issue.

Mr Comet":2abrzaof said:

Also would feeller gauges give me a more accurate reading than their little piece of paper?

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No. The Plasigauge is extremely accurate. The whole concept behind it was to come up with a way to measure mated round surfaces under.

Mr Comet":2abrzaof said:

I want to read the mains again just since the first time I didn't realize how important the most accurate reading is.

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Good idea.
-Stu

OK

A couple of things you can do.

Do to manufactoring atchtolerances no two bearings are exactly the same size. You can buy a new set of main bearing and mix and match them to try to get a closer fit. I would not fool around with the thrust main bearing.

Get ARP main bearing studs for added strength. After this you can try to increase the torque to close to the end of the range. See if this helps to close up the gap a little'

bubba22349":6siykg4u said:

With your stated goals as a temp engine I think you can work with what you have

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I agree. the only reason to experiment with these steps is because the engine is already open.