Mini-Starter...

Got a call from the shop that is installing my headers and dual exhaust this morning.

As usual with ANY project on this car, the message started with "I'm afraid I have some bad news on the Mustang... there's just no way its going to fit around this starter- you need to find a mini-starter."

Thought the CI header was supposed to fit around the starter with no issue, but whatever...

There happens to be a starter/alternator specialty shop here in Dallas (gotta love living in a big city)- Alterstart Systems. They said their 3205FE PRO-TORK mini-starter should be a plug and play replacement (although when I look up that number on eBay it only indicates fitment for a 360, 390, 427, 428). I had the guy check 3 times, and he said it should work "no problem." It only has two bolts instead of three- but again he said, "No problem."

Anyone else use this starter on a 200? I did a search for the 3205FE, and came up empty on the site. Also, the current shop is saying the teeth on the flywheel and starter are looking "chewed up." Since I just had the clutch replaced, I asked that shop if they noticed anything. They said, "Yeah, it looks like a starter might have gone bad at some point in the car's life- but it doesn't grind at all during starts, so you're good to go."

Of course the current shop responds with "Well, some of the damage to the starter gear looks fresh." The car has never had a problem with starts, and I'm not inclined to have anyone ripping back into the bellhousing to replace the gear around the flywheel. I can't imagine they could have screwed up the gear while changing the clutch, so I guess we'll see how it starts with the new starter.

Now the shop is saying it will be "hopefully next Wednesday" when the dual exhaust is all done (dropped the car off Tuesday, and they said hopefully today or Saturday... I don't think they started on it until today). Argh!

Yep the just some of the joys of the Hot Rodding building hobbie. Well the good thing though is that soon you will be enjoying driving it.

I've yet to see anyone confirm the use of a big block or FE starter on the high mount 200. The question has been asked several time (you've probably already searched "mini starter", but you can used the advanced search to limit the responses to threads in the 144-250 forum).

Most recent attempt I was aware of was by member rwbrooks aka Rick, but I don't remember seeing a response telling how it worked out.

The main thing I noticed from some of the big block/FE starter pics is that I had the impression the two holes are not centered directly on the starter body in alignment with the bendix shaft.
Most of the aftermarket models have a number of holes and the ability to rotate the assembly in order to achieve alignment...but I still haven't heard of some doing it successfully with the off the shelf universal mini. JDN used one....ughh (the rest of or syntax of his handle is failing me...Europe/Denmark gentleman, I think), but IIRC he had the correct holes drilled or made an adapter.

Please let us know how it turns out, and good luck

BTW, I also thought the most recent model/production of the CI headers could accommodate a full size starter...by any chance are you using an older set? (there have been at least a couple renditions)

Again, Good luck

Be very careful, it's about more than bolt patterns with FE starters. I assume you're using your stock C4/C5 date code block and small bell and 8.8 flywheel? Have the shop measure the depth of the flywheel face from the starter mount face. Below are some measurements I took trying to figure out why I destroyed my very expensive high torque mini starter, though my measurements are for a later C6 dual pattern block with a 3.03 bell/9 inch flywheel.

viewtopic.php?f=76&t=70500&p=540580&hilit=Mini#p540580

I just ordered/received the header from CI a couple weeks ago- so I would hope it is the most recent one... I do notice the site talks about all headers now coming with "spring loaded ball joints" (and the one sent to me had no springs). So, I guess its something to check on.

The shop said the main problem was the solenoid on the stock starter- there was just no way the header was going to fit around it without major modifications, according to them. I'm going to call CI tomorrow, then stop by the shop to have a look for myself. If they will let me, I'm going to take the stock starter off myself, compare the two starters, and decide what to do from there.

I understand when doing non-stock things one should expect some troubles, but it is VERY annoying when the seller of a part represents it as being compatible- only to find the part really isn't. IIRC, I checked and I have the high mounted starter (the only one that was supposed to be any kind of challenge was the low mounted starter- so I didn't even give it a second thought).

I guess I have to hope the starter shop knows what they're talking about when they say the FE starter will "definitely work" on my 3.3. I told the guy I had a '65 3.3 manual with a 3 bolt starter. He said their FE 2 bolt starter will "definitely work" for my application (the two bolts are supposed to line right up and the gear is supposed to be positioned perfectly).

So far, the tech articles on this site are batting 0-2 for me.

Oh, and has anyone found a mini-starter that definitely will work for the '65 3.3?

Not sure what is up with yours. But I have had my CI headers for about 2 years and the starter clears. Good luck

I stopped by the shop on my way to work and asked them to show me where the header is not clearing.

Basically, you can get the header in place, but the #6 tube is tight against the solenoid cover on the starter. So, I asked them to just flatten out the #6 tube enough to provide 1/4" clearance, and be done with it. They pointed out there might be some discoloration from where they heat the header, but that's fine with me.

Basically, they tried mounting the header with the starter out- then found they couldn't get the starter in- which prompted their decision that the header wouldn't clear the starter.

The one valid point they made was- with the header installed changing the starter will involve removing the A/C bracket and header to get to the starter.

Yes, the reasons I changed to a mini were my lack of interest in pulling the exhaust to change the starter, and my concern with the solenoid failing due to the heat which would increase the need to change the starter. But maybe I'm just paranoid.

Yeah, it was actually your post that made me stop by the shop this morning.

The place where I bought the starter was just a bit too cavalier about "yeah, it'll bolt right up." If I'm not mistaken, the "dish" type flywheel I have is unique to the '65 (so I'm supposing that even if the starter works for a '66 it may not be right for my car).

I know the starter that is in there works perfectly right now- so I'd like not to potentially create a problem where there isn't one now!

Wow, this just keeps getting better and better. Called the place I got the starter from, and their take is "no returns on electronic parts."

So, I guess I can either keep the starter for possible future use (not really knowing if it will actually fit), or if someone wants a great deal on a $200 mini-starter (3205FE PRO-TORK) just let me know!

Varilux":6nma1z5q said:

Wow, this just keeps getting better and better. Called the place I got the starter from, and their take is "no returns on electronic parts."

So, I guess I can either keep the starter for possible future use (not really knowing if it will actually fit), or if someone wants a great deal on a $200 mini-starter (3205FE PRO-TORK) just let me know!

Click to expand...

So will it fit a 66 Inline 6 with a T5?

The place that sold it to me claim it works on all manual L6 between '65-70 (which in itself makes me dubious- since I would imagine there were a number of different flywheel configurations used over those years). They advertise the same part on eBay and list it as being compatible with the 3.3L for all the early Mustang years, so who knows?

Is there anything I can do to treat the area between the starter solenoid and the header to reduce heat transfer? I know that air is a very poor conductor of heat- so if there is a 1/4" space between the surfaces I'm hoping the heat transfer won't be enough to cook the solenoid. Can ceramic coating be applied to just one spot on a header?

Local parts store sell a heat rap for the starter. I think it is about 25 dollars.

You can buy a starter diaper stone places. Basically header wrap for the starter .

Thanks- didn't know about the starter wrap (shop really stressed not putting wrap around the exhaust- but didn't think about putting it around the starter... great idea).

Good news this afternoon! They found they could safely elongate the holes in the header to allow more clearance for the starter. Also, they have the A/C bracket all modified (my Sanden compressor has always been just a smidge out of pulley alignment, which caused some initial squealing when turning the A/C on- now it is perfectly aligned and squeal-free).

Light at the end of the tunnel (hope its not just a train coming )!

Sorry for all the questions, but one more... On the '65 flywheel, is the ring gear the same for both the 9" flat and 8.5" dished flywheels? If they are, I might just go ahead and grab one from RockAuto (since they're only $16).

On the ring gear, the outer diameter and tooth count is different between the 8.5 and 9 inch.

On the return, I would suggest calling them and informing them that they are incorrect in their advertising, and that should get you past their no-returns policy. I was told the same as you, that the two opposing starter holes on a three bolt starter were the same as a two bolt, and this was not the case. I had a buddy weld a new ear on the starter and re-drilled it to make it fit. That's besideds the point, no one can say one starter can fit all manual inline sixes as the bolt pattern changed.

Great info- thanks Invectivus! I will definitely use the argument that the starter they provided will not work with the recessed flywheel setup in my car. Hopefully I can do a return (having a useless $200 part lying around is just ridiculous).

So, is it safe to assume the ring gear I see on RockAuto for the '65 manual L6 is going to be for the 9" flywheel? I notice the same part number is listed for the 1966- which IIRC didn't have the recessed flywheel.

I tried searching the 1964 Falcon parts- but (of course) they don't carry a ring gear for the '64 Falcon 3.3 L6 manual.

So, is there anyplace that does actually carry the ring gear for the recessed flywheel? Did some '65s get the 8.5" and some the 9" flywheel?

Thanks!