Wanted: Chamber pictures for comparison

WerbyFord

Well-known member
This recent thread is interesting in quite a few ways:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=71123&p=545870#p545870

FSD brought up chamber shape so I wondered if anybody could post pics of a casting number and chamber picture, I know they varied thru the years, the early kidney bean, then the "D".
Were any of the chambers full open, ie like the 351c-2v or 400M, if so which years/casting numbers?

I found a couple late ones here, c9de and e0be chambers

http://www.usa500.com/

They are not the dreaded no-quench chambers, but the e0be looks pretty "open".

pg8 of Schjeldahl has a pic of
* Early 170 kidney bean
* Pre-69 200 "D"

* The 69-76, see link, looks like a Big "D"
* The 77-up, see link, looks like a "Big O"

I cant find a fully-open, no quench chamber, maybe thats good.
 
My 1981 Mustang runs a closed chamber 170 head which had 52 cc before it was planned down.

The photos are ex Hot Rod from board member Invectivus.

The 170 large log 1971 head is shown, but the early 200 ran the same head till about 1966 or 1967, depending on state and, in my case, country. 1966 to 1967 Aussie XR Falcons were still using C1 casting heads with 1965 dates. See HRM's mustang magazine number 3. %2091% is the picture
http://www.invectivus.com/hrm_mustang3/Cover.jpg
http://www.invectivus.com/hrm_mustang3/Page 90 copy.jpg
http://www.invectivus.com/hrm_mustang3/Page 91 copy.jpg
http://www.invectivus.com/hrm_mustang3/Page 92 copy.jpg
http://www.invectivus.com/hrm_mustang3/Page 93 copy.jpg
http://www.invectivus.com/hrm_mustang3/Page 94 copy.jpg
 
xctasy,
Thanks for a great article! Helpful in a number of ways.

So the chambers/heads on the 3rd page look like
left: the 170 "kidney bean"
right: The 77-83 "Big O", still has quench areas but not nearly as much

Odd thing is, this article says the 170 head flows 30% BETTER, the data on the CI site would sure disagree with that!

http://www.classicinlines.com/SmallSixSpecs.asp#flow
 
WerbyFord":2z372hvy said:
This recent thread is interesting in quite a few ways:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=71123&p=545870#p545870

FSD brought up chamber shape so I wondered if anybody could post pics of a casting number and chamber picture, I know they varied thru the years, the early kidney bean, then the "D".
Were any of the chambers full open, ie like the 351c-2v or 400M, if so which years/casting numbers?

I found a couple late ones here, c9de and e0be chambers

http://www.usa500.com/

They are not the dreaded no-quench chambers, but the e0be looks pretty "open".

pg8 of Schjeldahl has a pic of
* Early 170 kidney bean
* Pre-69 200 "D"

* The 69-76, see link, looks like a Big "D"
* The 77-up, see link, looks like a "Big O"

I cant find a fully-open, no quench chamber, maybe thats good.

so the pics i posted in the thread you linked to are not good enough?
 
Rbohm,
I hadnt seen those yet! The electrons must have crossed in the wire/air.
Those pics are good but the casting numbers would help would you have those?
The top one looks like the 65-69 200 "D" head? :unsure:
And the bottom one looks like a d7de, d8de, or e0be head? :unsure:

In any case, there is still some quench but not as much as the early heads.

FSD, yup I cheated and looked in the Gonkulator database, its the 170 kidney bean head you had (with a lot of porting).
Your build is still the highest HP build in my database at just over 220hp, (not counting Alum or Oz heads or Turbos) :D

Although, wsa111's little 204cid Gonks to 205hp with the later 77-up big log head so it gets top "Log Head HP/CID" honors, so it seems any of the log heads can be made to run, not like the Alum head but they make a decent showing. :D
 
here's a DODE-6090-A head chamber from a low-miles '71 Maverick C8DE block. now building a low compression TC setup and CR projection needs specifics.

It measured out to @ 52cc's.

. .

The 170 'Mav block powers my daily driver '63 with a worked D7DE head milled to 48cc chambers and a steel shim head gasket for a CR near 10:1, good mileage fun but on 93 octane... (kudos to the Scheldahl bros.) .
 
WerbyFord":1ackm67u said:
Rbohm,
I hadnt seen those yet! The electrons must have crossed in the wire/air.
Those pics are good but the casting numbers would help would you have those?
The top one looks like the 65-69 200 "D" head? :unsure:
And the bottom one looks like a d7de, d8de, or e0be head? :unsure:

In any case, there is still some quench but not as much as the early heads.

FSD, yup I cheated and looked in the Gonkulator database, its the 170 kidney bean head you had (with a lot of porting).
Your build is still the highest HP build in my database at just over 220hp, (not counting Alum or Oz heads or Turbos) :D

Although, wsa111's little 204cid Gonks to 205hp with the later 77-up big log head so it gets top "Log Head HP/CID" honors, so it seems any of the log heads can be made to run, not like the Alum head but they make a decent showing. :D

no casting numbers, i didnt take the pictures, i just found them with a bing search. sorry.
 
WerbyFord":1habsw20 said:
Odd thing is, this article says the 170 head flows 30% BETTER, the data on the CI site would sure disagree with that!

http://www.classicinlines.com/SmallSixSpecs.asp#flow

Yes, both articles are entirely true. read Mike W's information on the posts he made when those flow graphs were drawn up. The cfm flow on the 2V and Classic Inlines is almost the same at the same port each time, but on the log head, the port to port flow rates on log heads vary by 5 to 10 cfm between ports 1 and 6. The combustion chamber improves the cfm flow by creating reduced turbulance in the chamber. This is what David Vizard did in the 70's on 2.0 SOHC Pinto EAO engines, same deal, adding a wall improved cfm flow, removing it reduced cfm. Gettting a 30% cfm increase, and a 1 to 2 point compression ratio increase is a good set of pluses.

Now, the early log had 1.125" ports on the 144,170, and early 200's to about 1965, then Ford started amping up the runner volume to improve both cfm and port to port flow efficency. The ports took on a geoid shape, an elongated, almost D section roofed port which you can see in any of my posts to xrwagon. So the 2v had a 1.625" port, and the intermediate years 1967 to 1983 had an intermediate effective diameter of about 1.3", although it varies. The hole in the log went up from 1.3, to 1.65 to 1.75 in three steps, and then the last of the closed chamber 1971-1972 Mavericks and Cometes had a 170 head had both the larger runners, the better chamber cfm, and better compression, so compared to any similar 200 head,the flow increase cold be even more. Aussie Log a heads from 1968 to 1976 had huge cfm reducing valve stems, including the 1971 to 1973 2v head, so exhaust cfm is less than early small log us heads.

All told, log heads have very poor flow efficiency to each cylinder, and its not hard to get an early 1965 170 chamber head to outflow a later 1981 to 1983 200 log head as the bigger valves shroud the chamber walls, so the flow increase was due to port sizes and the huge hole in the log manifold, not chamber improvements.

Remember, a really good intake manifold flows 85 to 95 % of the bare head with a plastercine bellmouth. But the log head flows much worse, with much less than 75% of the flow of a cut off log, and a well over 5% intake port to intake port flow efficiency change.

WerbyFord":1habsw20 said:
wsa111's little 204cid Gonks to 205hp with the later 77-up big log head so it gets top "Log Head HP/CID" honors, so it seems any of the log heads can be made to run, not like the Alum head but they make a decent showing. :D

Crosely's 200 Falcon round body does even better...even with this much valve shrouding on his D7 head...

D8Headssignificantvalveshrouding.jpg


Photo's from my album on the intkae ports are in this post to xrwagon viewtopic.php?f=1&t=70764&start=50


Gonkulate 15.17 at 87.7 in Crosely's Falcon viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56639&p=440076#p440076

or 162.9 rear wheel hp and 198lb-ft of torque in the Gene Fiore's Maverick, and you'll get about 205 hp. With the 250 cam in the right place, you might see the 217 hp that 162.9 rear wheel hp should be and the 218 hp a worked 250 head can flow.
 
I found the Crosley thread (missed this one, been too busy building v8's for a while) thanks for the alert.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=68886&p=528790#p528782

So as best I can Gonkulate it (I had to guess at some things but the car/timeslip came out very close the 1st time)
9.25cr
Torq 193 at 4100
Powr 186 at 5500

Guessing a 4.11 gear for 5200 thru the traps and open exhaust-
2.14
9.63 at 72.0
15.16 at 88.2

191 Net hp (yup, MORE than gross hp - thats due to the car)
154 RWHP
It is sometimes surprising how much difference the REST of the car makes, this only Gonkulates to 186 GROSS hp yet turns 88mph.

We have a near stock 64 Mustang 289, turns similar MPH, just under 88mph, but its a grocery getter so it gets the job done quite differently: Gonkulator did the tq/hp estimates but timeslip is real, on a crappy traction day
223 Gross hp
187 Net hp (much LOWER),
148 RWHP (close to Crosley)

Timesllp from Bremerton
2.46
10.27 at 70.1
15.86 at 87.5
 
Cool. I use 26.5% hp loss for 7.875-9.25 diff and 225 section tires and T5, but some say only 14%, and they have figures to back it up. I don't agree with the lower figure for drive train loss because uncoastdowns are not valid hp loss assessments, and verses load quarter mile times verses SAE Net dyno runs, my figures are backed up. It is more of an issue with automatics due to the influence of shit kits and torque converters, and how they impinge on the type of engine and chassis dyno used.

For properly matched stall ratio to real road load on track, I use 33% for 7.875-9.25 diff and 225 section tires and C4. You use 21.4%. I'm certian you have your reasons, and I don't doubt your summary. Good work!

That's the difference in 154 rwhp calculated by the idealised method, and 205 SAE net flywheel HP by my reckoning. Any chassis dyno will show way less than 154 rwhp on a 205 hp car with C4, some try to match the counterweight and drive train losses by coastdown, but auto's are a real problem. The Faclon is a very slick car, with good drag factor, and little frontal area, and with less than 200 hp, it could still make those figures (Unlike Vizards set-ups for Mini and A seiers powere cars, I don't have my quartermile times adjusted for frontla area and co-efficent of drag)

Back to the Combustion chambers. Made an error, the Crosely head is a D7, not E0, and picture is, I think, Jack Fishes D8 head.

The other info all in line. There does "look" to be a change in the 170 closed chamber from 1961 to 1971, but they still come out as nominal 52 cc heads. As for the 'more open' chamber 200/250 head, it looks like they changed a lot less, even allowing for the 1.65 to 1.75 intake valve increase which forced Ford to run some kind of broached clearancing.
 
The Fox stuff you have is excellent, JF. I did a quick search for your 3G alternator post, and then found all manner of other stuff, I was a bad boy in a candy store, sorry for stealing "engine p@wn"

I'll go over those flow rates. Classic Inlines, Jack Collins and some others found that the log is a dog in ultimate terms, but power isn't all about flow into one cylinder, its about optimizing things, like compression ratio, cam size and carburation. The 144/170 based chamber gives 30% flow, but the large port log and 1.75" intake head gives a 1.75" intake hole and its a super direct mound head.

The Classic Inlines head is far an away over the iron head, its just that US engines are anti independent runner manifolds, so in Australia in 1967, we were making 9 port GM Holden 186 cubic inch engines with 240 hp from triple SU's, but today, a triple carbed ICT 250 Ford makes 220 hp.

So FSD read very old information from those early 70's Ak Millar sources, did the research, and could have ended up with 30% less power if he'd followed other info. Its not miss-information, its just "missing information". Plenty of us here have done 2V's and tri-powers, and found missing hp from what was expected, but always, Any Extra Info Helps. The Ford small I6 head lookes more like the old A series BMC head, with some supposedly restrictive, low rent heads being hidden power producers. I'll never forget little 12G 207 and 12G295 heads being just wonderful with 12G940 valves, and the US emissions heads being better again. With the right missmatch, you got better performance on some engine combinations.
 
1992 188 Max Econo 3.1 liter 107 hp DIN Net 2-bbl Solex 34 carbed cylinder head from Argentine Falcon
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc5 ... Econo2.jpg

1980 Fairmont Cylinder head
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc5 ... 4of7-1.jpg
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc5 ... 5of7-1.jpg


1978 Fairmont head with 57 to 58 cc chambers after plane
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc5 ... C05587.jpg
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc5 ... Bottom.jpg

1972 250 2v cylinder head. M code 170 HP Gross Falcon
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc5 ... 2502v3.jpg

1967 200 Ford head
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc5 ... C05666.jpg
 
The C7DE head is a very special non siamesed exhast port head.

As of about 1965 of 1966, the Clean Air Act California cars were running air injection on the exhast via six log mounted ports, and yet they still used the early 170 52 cc chamber.

From Inline 6'Ss November2013 for sale post, here is his 1965 twin Holley Weber 5200 ported head

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c8/In ... fd1b70.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c8/In ... c_/010.jpg

So between 1965 and 1968, the swing to the big O head 60 cc nominal split ramp quench combustion chamber was made. The 250 was actually an October 1967, 1968 model year Truck Code 6 option on Fairlane unibody pick-ups, but also according to Consumer Guide, 68 Mustangs as well. The C7DE head was likely needed to reduce compression ratio on these engines...the 250, even with a 103 thou piston shortfall, needed a 60 cc chamber to make a low enough compression ratio.
 
The Aussie heads had vastly increased relief intake relief and Weslake BMC A series style kidney bias.

Despite this, the flow figures for those Aussie Log heads weren't stellar, with exhast flow no better, and the 2V only had those brilliant intake ports. Valve stem is much thicker on those heads. The flow figures are found on Mikes Classic Inlines pages, and 73Greenmachine's posts. It's able to flow 218 hp gas flowed. See http://www.cardomain.com/ride/616166/


There are 108 photos on http://www.cardomain.com/ride/616166/19 ... o-gallery/, and picture 21, 101 and 103 show the chambers and flow rates.
 
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